Occam's Razon or the Law of Parsimony

You have not answered this. To recap your answer was that the research was carried out in skeletally mature feet and that you’re theory was only about the embryologic foot, viz. you employed the logical fallacy known as “shifting ground”. Yet you diagnose so called “Rothbart foot” in skeletally mature feet, do you not?

Indeed, just last night you said:
“the cartilaginos supinatus in the prenatal RFS, in the postnatal foot, becomes ossified”,

so if the cartilaginous supinatus in the prenatal foot becomes ossified- why is this relationship not revealed when researchers, that is real researchers, take measurements from the ossified foot? Why is it they find no correlation between talar head position and forefoot alignment?

 

sounds familiar: https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2005/feb/10/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

 

Asked and Answered

 

No, it wasn’t answered. Brian. You employed a logical fallacy to avoid answering the question. Also it seems you too confuse “approval” with “accreditation”: Columbia Pacific has never been accredited,

 

Professor Rothbart posted in the past about the foot brain connection. This can be demonstrated through rotating one foot in a circle from the ankle and simultaneously drawing the letters of the alphabet with the corresponding hand. The foot will be observed to follow the hand. This unconscious connection always exists. I don't believe you can ever fix the foot without first addressing the hands and hand-eye coordination and how this is learned and inherited and changed through epigenetics
Hard to find research on this but this paper shows correlations of foot and hand dimensions of 120 males and 120 females demonstrating significant correlations between and within the dimensions of hands and feet 10.1016/J.FORSCIINT.2010.03.002
What are your thoughts?

Hilary McDonagh

 

Thanks Hilary, or should I say “Brian”? Funny as funk. Your old games are just that Brian. Go on then “Hilary” introduce yourself to us, tell us who you are and where you come from, what gave you the impetus to sign up to podiatry arena to write that post, then i’lll find that old post that Kevin Kirby put up from a disgruntled patient of Brian and post that back up.

it’s not a difficult question Brian, the more you obfuscate, the easier it gets.

 

Hi My Name is Hilary McDonagh and I am a Neuroscientist - currently researching stuttering and tongue movement - related to hand and foot motion.

Please consider the research I have posted and answer - it is legitimate question
Simon if you would like to know about my research I would be glad to share -it is not completely relevant here. I don't understand how any of you can consider the foot in isolation.

 

You haven’t posted any research. Just googled you and nothing comes up. Can you list your publications, please? Where are you employed as a researcher? Moreover, why do you call Brian “professor Rothbart” when he does not hold that position nor does he have any reason to use that academic title? Some might say he is being academically dishonest in pretending he has justification in his persistence in using the title of professor, when he is not a professor.

There’s no games like you old games, hey Brian? You’re so funny with games you try to play; as obvious as a 12 your old in your attempted deceptions when you cannot answer the questions. Biggest laugh I’ve had all day.

 

Brian your actions contradict your words. You have described your research multiple times and even stated you hoped the profession would pick up your system. To all observers it would appear that you are trying to get people to use your research, despite the flaws that I pointed out in post #143. (The quoted text here was your reply those criticisms.)

Your ideas are not new. In your 2002 paper you said that you were renaming Morton's foot as Rothbart's foot.
Your insole looks like a worse version of a Morton's pad.

Some new ideas are worthwhile and stand the test of time. Others fade away with time, especially when authors don't defend their ideas against valid criticism.

 

Hi Hilary, I'm interested to hear the answer to Simon's questions as well.

Hilary, you should seriously question the use of Brian's "research". In his 2002 paper he stated that 96.5% of feet were abnormal. If his other research found a correlation between his foot type and some brain findings he would have real trouble showing that the brain findings were not present in the whole population and not just in those with a certain foot type.

 

My CV is available on my website which list the teaching positions I held.

 

Eric,

Sometimes I think this discussion is a like broken record (keeps repeating itself). You made this statement before, in this discussion, and I answered it. But again, I am happy to respond.

My 2002 paper, was just that, published nearly 20 years ago. Research continues, ideas change and certainly I am no exception.

Today, if I was asked about the percentage of abnormal feet, I would answer that question in terms of a previous discussion I had on Researchgate. Specifically I posed the question:

Do you think the structural twist in the posterior aspect of the calcaneus can be used to trace the hominin lineage?

Ernst Haeckel’s adage ‘ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny’ envelopes the concept that the developing embryo goes through stages resembling successive stages in the evolution of their extinct ancestors.

Haeckel’s adage, which has been largely rejected as a biological hypothesis, differs from the hypothesis I suggest which could trace the direct lineage of hominins. I have termed this hypothesis the Ontogeny –Pylogeny Evolution Model.

In retrospect, a better name would be the Ontogeny Phlogeny Calcaneal Model (OPCM) which suggests that all hominid ancestors (e.g., progenitor) will exhibit the same structural twist (Supinatus) in the posterior aspect of the calcaneus.

So, Eric, my current view of the percentage of abnormal feet in the population would be best answered by asking the question - What is the percentage of the current population that has evolved from the calcaneal supinatus found in A. sediba into a plantargrade foot.

This was my answer on Researchgate's discussion:

Haeckel suggested that adult organisms are the embryonic stages of more advanced organisms. That is, felt that advanced species (e.g., H sapien) embryologically passed through stages seen in more primitive species (e.g., A.africanus). This is not exactly what I am suggesting. I suggest that the structural calcaneal twist was present in very early hominins in our human lineage. For example:

• This structural twist in the heel bone was found in fossilized foot bones of A.sediba, whom I suggest was a direct ancestor of H.sapien.
• It was not found in fossilized foot bones of A.africanus, whom I suggest was not a direct ancestor of H.sapien.

The OPCM can be applied as more hominin foot fossils are uncovered from the Pleistocene epoch. For example, did Oreopithecus have the structural twist in their heel bone or not? If they did, then I would suggest this hominin was a direct descendent of H.sapien.

The structural heel twist (and talar head twist), referred to as calcaneal Supinatus (and talar supinatus) by embryologists, occurs in the middle stages of human embryogenesis. As the human embryo continues its’ development, the structural twist in the heel bone unwinds leaving only the structural twist in the talar head. This foot structure is termed the Primus Metatarsus Supinatus (foot structure). At the end of embryogenesis, the structural twist in the talar head unwinds, leaving what is termed a Plantargrade Foot Structure.

This is the normal ontogenetic development of the foot. What I am seeing clinically is that many of my patients still maintain the twist in their heel and talar bones (e.g., the PreClinical Clubfoot Deformity). This is the most common foot structure I have seen over the past 45 years. The next most common foot structure I have encountered clinically is the Primus Metatarsus Supinatus foot structure. And the least common is the Plantargrade Foot Structure.

When the PreClinical Clubfoot Structure is diagnosed clinically, it is termed the PreClinical Clubfoot Deformity because it has been directly linked to the development of chronic muscle and joint pain.

The Primus Metatarsus Supinatus Deformity is also linked to the development of musculoskeletal pain, but less severe.

The Plantargrade foot is not linked to chronic pain.

In summation, the answer to My viewpoint on the % of abnormal feet in the adult population:

IMO, The human foot is slowly evolving from a calcaneal/talar supinatus to the plantargrade structure. Currently, there is a high percentage of calcaneal/talar supinatus feet in the adult population. I postulate that in the hundreds of years to come, this percentage will drop and we will see more and more plantargrade feet.

 

Hi Hilary,

Thanks for joining the discussion.

I agree with much that you have written. The body is connected, foot to head (ascending), head to feet (descending). Trying to isolate parts and explain how they function without looking at the entire structure, is foolhardy.

The theory I advanced regarding the Foot to Brain Connection basically validates your viewpoint that you can't fix the foot without addressing other parts of the body. I have suggested that normalizing the proprioceptive signal generated in the foot and sent to the cerebellum, will automatically attenuate the global postural distortion. That is, we are not fixing a local aberration (foot pathology), we are fixing a global aberration via the foot by changing CNS function (Rothbart 2021).

Interesting enough, I believe you can use the hands, much as I use the feet, to achieve this result.

• Rothbart BA 2021. Alteration in Plantar Pressure Gradients Linked to Alterations in Brain Wave Activity. Postive Health Online, issue 271, June.
• Rothbart BA 2021. Alteration in Plantar Pressure Gradients Linked to Alterations in Brain Wave Activity. Published in Academy Letters ((PDF) Alteration in foot function linked to alterations in brain function | Brian Rothbart - Academia.edu

 

My research is taking place in the Sligo Institute of Technology where I am carrying out Doctoral Research funded by the Irish Research Council EBPPG2110 . I also have a ResearchGate profile where I can be contacted and you can view my progress. I am not allowed share an email on this forum. Please contact me via either of those channels if you want to discuss my research.

The cerebellum is involved in proprioceptive feedback for all humans - I believe what is novel in Brian Rothbart's approach is the use of precise feedback to modify posture in specific ways to enhance mobility and reduce pain. I do not think, however. that this gets to the root of the problem - as it does not address(beyond genetics)the reason for the generation of an abnormal postural plan to begin with. We all inherit a genetic code but we can improve / modify its expression. Theoretically if we can modify/improve the postural plans generated/learned we don't need to keep fixing them.

If anyone else could share their views regarding hand/foot movement link I would be very interested. There is more research concerning body maps carried out by Matthew Longo " Tactile Distance Anisotropy on the Feet" Manser-Smith, Kelda and Tame, Luigi and Longo, Matthew (2021) Tactile Distance Anisotropy on the feet. Attention, Perception, & Psychophysics , ISSN 1943-3921. (In Press) demonstrating a discrepancy between our internal map of body shape and actual body shape.

 

Thank you for this. There was a paper published 2 days ago, which demonstrated an increase in arm strength with foot orthoses in situ. Interestingly, the authors did not ascribe this to a “proprioceptive” effect of the foot orthoses, but rather to a kinematic alteration. The subjects all displayed forefoot valgus and as such valgus forefoot posting was applied to the insole- the opposite of what Brian had said.

The proprioceptive influence of foot orthoses, if it exists at all, can only begin with the direct kinetic effect of the foot orthoses; there may well be a CNS mediated indirect kinetic effect and also psychosocial influences for example colour of insoles, all of these effects are active whenever we prescribe foot orthoses. To date we have no strong evidence for any proprioceptive effect in isolation, one simply cannot have such an effect in isolation from those listed above.

Also as a researcher you need to be cognisant of the quality or lack thereof of the journals that Brian has papers published in and the level of evidence that such opinion pieces provide.

If you are in Sligo you should talk to Marty at Firefly Orthotics. Good luck with you study.


Xu, Y., Hou, Qh., Han, Xl. et al. Effects of Custom-made Insoles on Plantar Biomechanics and Upper Extremity Muscle Performance.CURR MED SCI (2021). https://doi.org/10.1007/s11596-021-2471-6

see also:
Effect of Red Arch-Support Insoles on Subjective Comfort and Movement Biomechanics in Various Landing Heights

Yi Wang, Wing-Kai Lam, [...], and Aaron Kam-Lun Leung

 

I was able to help Brian with this aspect of his insoles some months ago .

Possibly ,if you put a wedge under the hallux then ,during gait, muscles like the AbH will come under strain earlier than they otherwise would . Proprioceptive organs in the muscles might then feed back to the CNS causing IFM/extrinsic muscle contraction which resists pronation .
Hence proprioceptive insole would be a reasonable name for these .

It's just a pity about Brian's foot classification which cannot be defended .

 

i disagree, in order to achieve this there first has to be a direct kinetic effect from the insole, there may be secondary indirect CNS mediated effects (Kirby described this some time ago), just like all insoles. Thus its an “insole”

 

So you don't believe that any distinction can be made between a chiefly mechanical insole, like a simple medial arch support, and one that is specifically designed to produce its effect by changes in afferent -CNS -efferent patterns ?

 

I don’t believe we can divide the effects with certainty, nor have one effect in isolation. Take Brian’s insole: it will create a dorsiflexion and inversion moment on the first metatarsal, a dorsiflexion moment about the medio-lateral midtarsal joint reference axis; an inversion moment about the anterior-posterior midtarsal joint reference axis; and an abduction moment about the dorso-plantar midtarsal joint reference axis; depending on the individual’s subtalar joint axis position, it may produce either a pronation or supination moment about this axis. These are the primary effects of the inert piece of plastic placed into the shoe and the magnitude of these moments will vary across individuals. They may or may not induce secondary indirect CNS mediated effects (I prefer this term to “proprioception”) and may or may not produce some effects via psycho-social mechanisms.

All that foot orthoses can do is modify reaction forces at the foot-orthoses interface by virtue of their shape, stiffness and frictional characteristics. We cannot magically make these direct mechanical effects disappear, nor do we have the knowledge of how their shape, stiffness and frictional characteristics correlate to exact changes in muscle activation patterns. We do know that varus wedged foot orthoses are reasonably consistent in reducing EMG activity in the tibialis posterior muscle, but are subject specific and a few of the EMG studies have given glimmers of understanding, sometimes with contradictory outcomes, but we are not at the point where we can say a 6 degree varus wedge will correlate with an x Newton change in muscle y contraction force, nor that we can alter the phasic muscle activity in a predictable fashion across subjects given a certain prescription. And no, Brian’s work has not shown this to be so.

 

I was aware that results from using Brian's insoles were inconsistent .

You paint a picture of the best podiatrists offering best guess estimates of what insoles might work for a particular patient followed by refinement at subsequent appointments .

If I have need I should look for a podiatrist greying at the temples and with crows feet ?

 

It’s always guess work, but educated by knowledge and experience, as I am sure it is in aspects of dentistry.

I have spent the last 25 years investigating “how foot orthoses work” with much of this work being focused on the “direct mechanical effects” with either in-vivo experiments or finite element modelling; However, I gave a keynote lecture to the British Association of Prosthetists and Orthotists in 2019 entitled Foot Orthoses- looking beyond their direct mechanical effects: neuromotor impact; I have also had a couple of papers published on the biopsychosocial impact of foot orthoses. In 2022 I’m lecturing at the Biomechanics Summer School in Manchester with a working title of Foot Orthoses: Thinking beyond the direct mechanical. As I hope you can see, I am not opposed to CNS mediated effects being discussed, it’s just Brian I have a strong disliking toward.

Out of interest: foot posture and malocclusion, your thoughts? Should we be treating malocclusion with foot orthoses?

 

Is there not a fundamental difference between achieving ankle stability by fixing the ankle in a position or stability by improving motion. If I put an orthotic under my foot, it may create stability in specific direction but it will inhibit my foot naturally changing shape when I change my orientation. I believe Proprioceptive insoles achieve stability without the same reduction in range of motion.

Thank you for sharing the recent paper. The link between arm strength and ankle strength again strengthens the connection I spoke of earlier. Does it not also raise the question that if I limit ankle rotation to increase stability moving in a specific direction I may also limit arm range of motion?

 

Ultimately I aim to quantify the effects movement have on tongue position and hence the shape of the oral cavity and malocclusion. It is something I invite you explore within yourself. If your bend your knees with your knees over little toe rather than your big toes your tongue moves up at the back - the correct position for straight teeth.
Before we "fix" people into a position don't we have to be sure we are 100% right. I have straightened my teeth by changing how my feet work by changing how my hand eye coordination worked - 8 years. If you contact me privately I will share. I only have photographic evidence, and no body would have believed me only one of my students had a developmental stammer and I was able to enable her to speak clearly using the same neurological principles. So I applied for funding so that I could carry out the necessary research to enable me to share and not be discounted.

 

Scotfoot is the dentist here, I’ll leave that one to him. I’ll come back on your previous post when I have time tomorrow.

 

Hi Gerrard,

It is not my intent to defend, just to present.

My foot classification system is based on the linear ontogenetic development of the foot during the 1st trimester of pregnancy. These stages are well understood. (My earlier animated plates (See reply No 149) clearly presents this growth pattern)

My classification evolved from comparing calcaneal supinatus seen during fetalgenesis, and the foot structure we term the Clubfoot Deformity, post delivery - Identical Structures. From this observation, I hypothesize that this torsional growth pattern is susceptible to arrest and I named the two foot structures that would result from this incomplete torsional development (PCFD and RFS).

From there I invented to differentiate and measure these two congenital foot abnormalities and a novel intervention to reverse gravity drive pronation and the resulting postural global distortions. The rest is history.

 

I am familiar with the link between foot and occlusion.

If I understand you correctly, you have found that changing hand eye coordination can impact the teeth and foot function. This is intriguing, can you expand more on this connection?

 

funny that LOL what a coincidence LOL a new member comes on and posts in this thread supporting your position Brian LOL and then you ask her to expand on it; it was completely random Gov, ‘onest LOL laugh? I haven’t laughed so much since Auntie Mabel caught her left tit in the mangle PMSLFA

 

This is what you must overcome if you are to make your presentations worth reading -

"The adult foot is made up of muscles, bones ,tendons ,etc and reacts in a certain way when it interacts with the ground and forces are produced .

The adult foot is nothing like the fetal foot at 10-11 weeks old at all .

When you are dealing with people with foot deformities you are not dealing with fetal feet made of bits of cartilage . The fetal foot does not exist in an adult . Trying to classify the adult foot using the fetal foot as a reference point is a nonsense . They do not even contain the same structures .

If you cannot classify your foot types with reference to the simple morpholgy of those types and what they do when stood/walked upon, then you have no classification at all . Rothbart's foot exists only in your imagination and in the minds of people who have been confused by your jargon ."

 

I understand your point of view and I disagree (See Replies 123, 126, 128 and 185). My intent was to present my foot classification as clearly and completely as I am able. That I have done. And to me, my classification is elegant in its' simplicity (again consistent with Occam'r Razor).

Regarding the rest, IMO, Posterity will either validate or refute my classification. Do you agree?

 

Over 14,000 reads of my research/presentations in the last two years, according to Researchgate and counting!

 

No point in carrying on with this discussion then, hey Bri?

 

And still no data to support your theory re: talar head position and forefoot alignment, 2 that say no correlation. I’d say you’re 2 nil down at half time. You might want to stop clicking on your own links now lol

 

Duly noted.

 

Responding to Simon's query: No point in carrying on with this discussion then,

It all depends on the interest in this discussion. 3800 views suggests to me, there may be an interest.

 

Oh, there’s a surprise. No data to support correlation between talar head position and forefoot alignment. 2 studies that found no correlation. You are 2:0 down, Brian. I can repeat it as many times as you like. Your game is old, Brian- bringing on a “new poster” to support you, we’ve seen it all before. But go on then, let’s see what new depths you can plumb

*edit: you changed your posts which previously consisted of “?????” And one that said you were interested in hearing from Hilary about her research. No worries, I’m not really interested in hearing from her either since she clearly knows little about biomechanics nor the way in which foot orthoses work, yet is obviously acting as a stooge for you.

 

The link between hand eye coordination, limb movement and dental alignment is the tongue. The muscle which controls the point of entry of the tongue into the oral cavity is the palatoglossus muscle which is connected to the facial system via the palatal aponeurosis and innervated by the vagus nerve - not under conscious control.
Tongue on the roof of the mouth has been shown to improve muscle strength.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3940506/
The link between eye movement and tongue movement I have yet to quantify but I have used to enable people who stutter to speak freely - currently running a clinical trial and working on collecting scientific data to aid this discussion.

 

Currently I have a patient experiencing unilateral insole irritation (supinating off her right insole). However, she noted that while eating dinner :

"The tongue movement made my hurting right foot go away, and created equal circulating sensations in both lower legs and feet. Simply by moving my tongue muscle!"​

I believe this dovetails into what you have described above.


I have found that:

• When a patient experiences unilateral insole intolerance (supinating off the insole), it is the result of a descending postural distortion impacting the foot (e.g., dysfunctional tongue motion).

• When a patient experiences bilateral insole intolerance, it is the result of a problem with the proprioceptive signal (too strong) or a problem with the fabrication of the insole.

 

Yet you continue to refer to it like it was your current thought.

That is a very strange way to determine the prevalence of anything. Your original paper is a much better start. To determine prevalence you should create a clinical measurement and then validate that it measures what you think it measures. Then you see if the measurement can be made consistently across clinicians. Then you would take a sample population and perform that measurement on them.

But the above is more like the magicians attempt at distraction from the question at hand. If you are claiming a mechanical effect of the foot type, the embryological development that caused the foot type is irrelevant to the mechanical effect. Brian, just keep it simple, remember Occam's razor.

 

I remember the first time I took drugs as well Brian, ffs you go plumb them depths boy lol or is this you trying to enact some kind of revenge because they took away your license to practice, Brian? You are now seeking the advice of someone who has never prescribed a foot orthoses in her life about foot orthoses “irritation” Wow, just wow, Brian

 

Simon,

I visited Marty and firefly orthotics some years ago - not to get orthotics but to discuss these same research paradigms and why I did not want orthotics. He is gentleman and I thoroughly enjoyed the encounter. He facilitated the early stages of my research and I discussed the hand foot connection with him.

I do not think that the best we can do for humanity is be forced to wear insoles of any kind so that we can move. There are fundamental problems regarding basic neurological functioning that are not been considered. To this end I am dedicating my time to research - I do not work in any of the areas I am currently "specializing" in and therefore have no financial interest in one treatment over an other.

If treatments are only helping people "manage" their conditions - are we not doing a disservice to humanity? Managing a condition ensures it continues to exist. I am hoping to change this through research - it will take time, a lot.

So to all the professionals you working with clients just pay a bit more attention to the whole body interaction and look at your work with new eyes.

Thank you

Hilary