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Is a Sub 2 hour Marathon Possible?

Discussion in 'Break Room' started by Craig Payne, Sep 30, 2013.

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  1. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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  2. The real question becomes then when Nike's three runners don't break the 2-hour marathon barrier in 2017 and when one, or more, of their athletes gets injured due to the increased training intensity required, will Nike live up to it? Not a chance.

    Nike is famous for promising things that never occur...or over-promising how wonderful their shoes will be for all runners. It's just Nike's way...marketing without facts or results to back up their hype.

    My prediction? The 2-hour marathon barrier won't be broken until at least 2025.
     
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    Here is the Press Release from Nike:

    December 12, 2016
    Nike Introduces Breaking2
    The quest to break the two-hour marathon barrier.

     
  4. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    hmmmm....
    What are Nike working on?
     
  5. One of Nike's runners has never run a marathon, and the other two will need to shave at least 4 minutes off their marathon bests to run a sub 2-hour marathon. My prediction? Not a single one of them will break 2:02 in the marathon in 2017.
     
  6. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    I'm all for pushing the boundaries of human endeavour/performance... but I really do find the following methodology/philosophy so off-putting...

    Right, Ok then... so only Nike athletes! What a @#$%^! joke!

    So... it's just Nike athletes, on a course 'ordained' (optimal) by Nike... on a "closed course" (at a specific time & place deemed optimal by Nike)... & "optimized beyond what’s typically seen in big-city marathons"... whilst endeavouring... "getting the drafting right"... which... "could shave 100 seconds off an elite marathon time, according to wind-tunnel estimates".

    I've been training in Nike shoes for a long time (i.e. Nike Free range), their shoes suit me... but their (apparent) philosophy with running I think will potentially ruin the sport... & it's starting to piss me off!
     
  7. I agree Matt. "Getting the drafting right" sounds like another way of saying that Nike may be cheating to get their athletes under 2 hours in the marathon.

    Why not, Nike, let your runners race over a point-to-point course with a 15 mph tail wind to their back...so you can have that all important 2-hour marathon?! Of course, Nike will claim it was the Nike shoes the runner wore that allowed the record to be broken....couldn't be the lack of wind resistance for 26 miles, 385 yards?!

    If one of Nike's runners breaks 2 hours in an unofficial race or done with special assistance to the runners (i.e. cheating), then it will not mean a thing to most runners.
     
  8. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    It's interesting that the fastest man in the world over 1 mile has absolutely smashed the Olympic and World records. The catch is that he runs downhill. It will be interesting to see the track which Nike choose.
     
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  10. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Runners World Interview with Ross Tucker


    paraphrase: "most likely way to do it is with the shoe"
     
  12. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,
    Ross is wise.
    "most likely way to do it is with the shoe"
    We have a lot of room for improvement for our racing shoe designs.

    It will be these brave boundary breaker athletes that will show us the way.




    Carbon fiber returns 92% of its flexion energy. Ref. Dr. Benno Nigg "Biomechanics of Sports Shoes." Chapter 7 on Work and Energy. read it if you want to win...

    Advocating Advantages,
    Steve

    Maximalism must show significant and testable improvements in stability, physical safety, energy efficiency and greenability...:D
     
  13. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,
    What a well earned :)smile at finish of this great race.
    I bet she could not do this with a EVA or PU foam prosthetic.


    A hui hou,
    Steve
     
  14. NewsBot

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    "An Imminent Sub 2-Hours Marathon is Unlikely: historical Trends of the Gender Gap in Running Events".
    Tucker R, et al.
    Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2016.
     
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  16. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Me thinks a custom orthotic (to address the runner's individual biomechanics)... attached to a cushioning sole... strapped to the foot is the key (hence keeping the foot attire as light as possible... whilst providing the needed cushioning) over the 42.2km journey... for the duration of 1hr 59min (2:50 min per km :confused:/ :eek: 21.18 km per hr).

    Hence, instead of a shoe company getting in the mix... maybe a Podiatrist (or a group thereof) should. Whoops... I nearly forgot about the amount of money required for such a 'feet' :(.
     
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  20. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha Mike,

    Any chance we can find the images of this new sub2hr Nike tech is proposing for our athletes?
    It is really hard to imagine what they are proposing from their vague claims.

    1 . An article of footwear comprising an upper; an outsole; at least one inner sole member shaped to rest securely within a void defined at least in part by the upper; and a spring plate positioned between at least a portion of the at least one inner sole member and at least a portion of the outsole, the spring plate extending through at least medial forefoot and medial midfoot regions and having an unloaded shape in which a front portion of the spring plate in the forefoot region is downwardly bent relative to a rear portion of the spring plate located rearward of the front portion.


    When Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier it was not done with the Wright Brother's bi-plane and could not have been.

    Levers Do Work
    Foams Do Not


    A hui hou,
    Steve
    aka:) Phileas Fogg of Footwear

    By my calculations a self powered human can run a 1 hr 52 min marathon with advanced materials and mechanical orthotic systems.
    and when they do can i join the Royal Academy of Sciences?

     
  21. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,

    By the looks of the patent they just dusted off their double leaf spring Avini patent and added some track spikes to it.
    This is the same gait technology that has been used by prosthetic makers for a long time as well. (aft and bow leaf springs under the heel and metatarsal phalangeal joints.)
    I wonder how comfortable the metatarsal heads will feel with the convex spring tightened up against them for long distances or higher spring plate modulus of elasticity (bending strength)?
    How will Nike reduce pressure induced neuropraxia from the spring plate with this design?




    upload_2017-1-18_9-20-52.png


    Prior Art
    https://www.google.com/patents/US7100308

    [​IMG]


    Prior Art
    This demonstrates a rear leaf spring, a toe off leaf spring assisted by a long lever up the lower leg.

    [​IMG]


    Prior Art
    Maybe Nike should pay Otto Bock a royalty so they may patent their "new" shoe and gait tech?

    [​IMG]


    Hello is anyone getting this?

    The use of a midstance lever will improve all these simple leaf spring designs good folks.

    F1D1=F2D2

    A hui hou,
    Steve



    Also nothing too special about the carbon fiber layup of a 3k bi-directional weave layered to increase elastic modulus.
    No mention of anisotropic modifications or special fibers that could also enhance layups.


    upload_2017-1-18_9-43-14.png
    :)
     
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  23. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Interesting tweet today from Ross Tucker:
     

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    Press Release:
    24-FEB-2017
    adidas launches ambitious Sub2 programme with the introduction of its adizero Sub2 marathon shoe
    adidas adizero Sub2 front
     
  25. NewsBot

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    How Biomechanical Improvements in Running Economy Could Break the 2-hour Marathon Barrier
    Wouter Hoogkamer, Rodger Kram, Christopher J. Arellano
    Sports Med (2017). doi:10.1007/s40279-017-0708-0
     
  26. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    this:
     
  27. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    First snippett on the Nike #breaking2 shoe from @sweatscience
     

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    Press Release:
    Informed by Nike’s Breaking2 project, an innovation to break the two-hour marathon barrier, the Nike Zoom Vaporfly 4%, Nike Zoom Fly and Nike Air Zoom Pegasus 34 introduce a new future for running. Designed to improve the efficiency of all runners — from world-class marathoners to those training for their first distance test — this trio of racing and training shoes redefines the look and feel of fast running.
     
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    Press Release:
    Break the two-hour marathon record? It could be done
    March 3, 2017
     
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  33. William Fowler

    William Fowler Active Member

    Shoes or not, but Nike and Adidas are milking this for an extraordinary amount of publicity.
     
  34. saw that yesterday
    I thought there going to more too it, I did notice that they were all tuned to the individual, and they have the track and temp set for the trail.

    There was meant to be a 21 km trial not sure if it went ahead
     
  35. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,
    Let us look at a few of the finer points of this.

    1. If reducing shoe mass by 100 grams increases gait economy by 1% then you could either build a lighter shoe or you could build a shoe that has reactive impedance and returns more energy than the current foam shoes that offers losy impedance.

    2. If all it would take to break the 2hr marathon is to add a set of Dr. Jill's Spring (nylon carbon) plates to your shoes anyone of us foot practitioners could have built that into an othotic years ago and completed the feet feat without Nikes and Addida's marketing machine.
    Dr. Jill's plates -- get a set kick them around a while imho
    http://drjillsfootpads.com/retail/home/29-carbon-stabilizer-plates.html

    "Ultra-lightweight, soft and highly resilient Lunarlon foam creates a light, responsive underfoot experience, while an embedded full-length carbon infused nylon plate increases stiffness. A high abrasion rubber in the heel for durability completes the tooling"
    Note that a carbon infused nylon plate is still of cheaper materials and construction than say using split-toe carbon fiber plate on a 90-20 bi-directional weave that is compression pressed to 50,000 kg. It would cut have the weight of the nylon in half !, but Nike's desingers and research department have not yet shown the smarts to understand these concepts yet, until someday when they will have to, to keep up...

    3. I will again continue to bang on this drum.
    • IAAF to investigate shoes amid concerns over illegal springs

    According the last statement of US Track and Field Rule #143
    * Any orthotic used for medical purposes are exempt from this rule.

    Perhaps, we have patients that come to see us because they feel slow and lethargic. We offer them the advice of a good ballaced diet, plenty of restful sleep, limit screen time and to use carbon fiber spring levered orthotics to assist them with their "medical" symptoms.

    Perhaps, we develop orthotics that helps increase stability which will reduce trips and fall injuries that also have high pucture protective matericals to defend from punture hazards that have reactive impedance system to reduce peak impulse at heel strike that then levers the heel up to a higher potential energy level through the plantar flexion of the forefoot on a composite "spring" plate.
    Perhaps we dispense it to a professional runner for the treatment of say (plantar fasciitis, shin splints, metatarsalgia, osteocondritis desicans and tendonitis.) Say the IAAF then bans the medical orthotics because they have "springs" in them. Say the professional athelete then suffers a bad injury because they did not do as thier doctor said but what the IAAF said.

    What do you SAY about that??
    Lawsuit?
    How Much?

    A hui hou,
    Steve

    ASTM F13 and E54.4 voting member

    :)
     
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  37. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,

    Unfair is only if you don't allow both competitors the same advantages and securities...

    Does anyone find it interesting that on Nike's own website the shoe is listed as having a carbon fiber plate-- Note that it did not say "spring plate".

    Nike ZoomX truly enables the innovation of the Nike Zoom Vaporfly Elite,” says Tony Bignell, VP of Footwear Innovation for Nike, Inc. “The groundbreaking new Nike ZoomX midsole and curved carbon fiber plate work together to provide responsive cushioning and minimized energy loss at toe off.”

    Source
    http://news.nike.com/news/nike-zoom-vaporfly-elite

    So how do you --minimize energy loss- if you don't bend a spring plate?

    Could this be a grammatical marketing dance around the IAAF rules?

    Why put a carbon fiber spring plate in your shoe if you don't want to use it as a spring??

    I don't mean to tell Nike their business but it is my business as well.
    Why incorporate the ramped up toe spring in the last?
    Why sacrifice the ability to load an energy returning composite spring with more force by prebending-curving it to fit the old fashioned shoe last?

    Why do they continue to build wedged foam midsoles when the carbon plate could do the same work functions, if you design it right?
    In addition to the 21mm forefoot stack height, the Nike Zoom Vaporfly Elite has a 9mm offset, designed to minimize Achilles strain.

    Someday someone will understand this and be able to converse about it seriously.

    Will it be you?

    A hui hou,
    Steve

    Striving for Excellence is an Excellent way to Thrive...
     
  38. [​IMG]
     
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