Undergraduate education

Interesting read.

One observation from an old dog (instructional designer) and that is there is just too much content in the existing undergraduate programs....and that is across the board. Far too much reliance is placed on learning in the primal years (undergraduate) with the premise all you ever need to know to practice for life will be caught then . Learning is life long and the professional bodies need to seriously address this concept and encourage an otherwise apathetic workforce to change their way of thinking. Rrecognition of specialisation by registration authorities would go a long way in places like Australia to forge change.

in the UK and Australasian programs there is far too much emphasis given to the magical 1000 hours of supervised practice. That belonged in the apprentiship days prior to degree level education. Served the profession well then but is no longer financially feasable within the current academic sphere. Recent school closures would attest to that. As an industry we are too small to support clinical training on the job and hence I believe if we continue to rely on educational institutions to provide the base line education then we are begining to see a dichotomy ahead with pedicurists training, and foot physicians undergoing specialist education. Where have all the podiatrists gone? Sadly like the dodo they may become an extinct species uless we begin to do something about it now.

I have always argued for a baseline degree in podology (3 years -unclassified) with a post graduate masters in Podiatry (two years). That way a least both theory and practice can be given their respectful times within the core curriculum.

But hey, what would I know

What say you?

 

...and at a meeting earlier this week we were criticised or not teaching this and not teaching that etc .... don't figure

 

Craig

As my father used to say (Yes. I had a father)

"Fools and children should never see half finished work."

 

Confused of Northcote writes

Cameron's suggestion of a 3 year UG degree in Podology followed by a two year Masters (which must, by definition, be post-graduate - that's what a Masters degree is/means) is one which is currently doing the rounds in educational institutions. Why? Not because of any valid pedagogical reason, but because it means 3 years of HECS payments followed by 2 years of full fee payments - and in these days of less-than-adequate funding for Tertiary Education, all means of making money must be considered.

But, let's be honest here - what would you do with a 3 year Podology degree if you didn't go on to do a Masters? I can think of nothing (unless you set yourself up as some kind of quasi-orthotist, say in a ski-shop).

And then, why should we use a Masters degree to educate beginning practitioners? Post graduate study is to enable research and contributions of an original or significantly revised nature to add to the body of knowledge. And our profession is sorely lacking in a sound body of knowledge by which we can call ourselves professionals. So, use a Masters degree to provide sufficient time and space to bring people up to a bare minimum in theory and prac? Well, you are devaluing the currency of academic study, and you are reducing the likelihood of ever establishing a body of knowledge.

I agree that there is an awful lot of material in the current undergraduate degree which may not be called upon by every practitioner - but then we all tend to wander off into our own fields of practice. So that's sports med might not be useful in a psychogeriatric ward, but the skills and concepts embedded in, and underlying the principles of, the material you study will create a better practitioner.

Where did the 1000 hours statistic come from? I haven't heard of that for years - certainly not a pressing issue in current curriculum design for Podiatry.

Anyway - its great to hear from you Cameron, you are always an inspiration for interesting discussion (and of course, famous for having been interviewed by Margaret Throsby, which is still my ultimate goal in life, I've even picked out the music....)

cheers,

Felicity

 

Hi Felicity

A complement from such a beautiful lady as yourself is indeed worthy of one lifetime.

>But, let's be honest here - what would you do with a 3 year Podology degree if you didn't go on to do a Masters?

There are many other stems to follow from a generic study of the foot in health and disease, pedorthotists, sport scientists and shoe designers, spring instantly to mind. Currently there is no formal core curriculum for those interested in diverse areas, which involve foot mechanics, and shoe design. The program I envisage would not be as the current podiatry curriculum.

Masters degree

Masters degrees in podiatry have been around for a decade or so. Accessing study is probably more of a problem than most institutes are aware of, or willing to admit to, due to their inflexibility of existing programs. Unfortunately the ground swell of academia has not, nor is ever likely to come from this section of the community with the critical developments more credibly from doctorate studies. However this takes a considerable amount of time. Sadly higher degree status is not recognized within the podiatry profession in any remunerative way and hence the drive to ‘educate the profession has been omitted. Recognition by the registration boards of specialist such as biomechanics or podopaediatrics would change this emphasis but remains unlikely I fear.


Where did the 1000 hours statistic come from? I haven't heard of that for years - certainly not a pressing issue in current curriculum design for Podiatry.

I think you may be shocked, like me, to find it has here and in the UK .

 

Felicity,

Unfortunately the 1000 hours is still a pressing issue for Podiatry curriculum as this is what the state Registration Board here in Victoria requires before students can register. This requirment often creates, to my dismay, the driving force behind our clinical education programs. It's a case of what do we need to do to make sure our students meet their quota of 1000 hours?

So, this then creates a shift from quality learning experiences in the clinical environment to one of quantity - a real shame pedagogically speaking.

 

This is the first time I have felt the need to enter into one of these debates - to endorse Mark Russell's comments about accepting who we are.
I too am baffled at why podiatrists have any need to feel embarrasssed/ashamed of what we do. I have practiced for 30 odd years (and just about getting the hang of it now) - in many guises. I am currently in the NHS and most of the time I thoroughly enjoy my work. I know I perform a valuable service to my patients, and this certainty gives me job satisfaction on a daily basis. I have undergone considerable post- qual education, which has kept my brain alive, mostly.... and has enabled me to move with the profession.
the huge changes that have taken place in our profession have tended to have been the result of passionate individuals, who have given all of us the benefit of an evolving (and living) career. Therefore, I salute the pioneers, but I am so glad that there are also level, grounded practitioners who keep the balance, so that we don't all blow up in our own self-importance.
The hours of practical work that undergraduates are expected to undertake seem to have been greatly reduced since my day - there is so much else in the curriculum though and this gives the potential for ever more development. It seems sensible to use placements as a way for students to gain real-life experience and to level their expecations at the same time. However this needs very careful back-up from the schools, as not all practitioners can teach - or would aspire to.
I do believe that practical training by practitioners who enjoy their work, generalists and specialists alike, is the key to producing graduates who value the work they do and who derive lifelong job-satisfaction.
We have got to stop trying to score points against each other and the world - that seems to happen an awful lot on these forums. Let the politicians play politics and let us get on with looking after our patients!

 

I'm a dreadful pragmatist.....why would anyone want to spend 5 yrs doing training for a job that in the main pays pretty poorly. Even universities pay as low as $35K for some one with a 4 yr pod degree, and the ceiling is not much higher. There are maybe half a dozen pod jobs in the state where you might get to earn more than $60k (in public health), where there is no ladder to climb, few people will bother to step upward.

In the public health system we will remain employees not fee for service professionals who expect to earn $1ook or even twice that with an initial unpaid training base of 5-6 years. Look at dentistry....and call me doctor by the way?What does post grad medical specialist training cost? and can someone give me a job and pay me $70k at least while I do my post grad podiatry training?Where are the slots in the system that make it possible?

Just doing the degree as an adult cost me 4yrs lost wages plus spent savings plus the Hecs debt......$200k at least...is this value? and now I'm getting the idea that I need to throw even more money after that lot? Having looked around at options $20k for a Masters which was probably not going to earn much in the way of increased pay I decided not to bother....I can read books for free, and still be easily misled at the end of it.

There are some major fundamental inequities in the system and until these things are addressed we are just shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Gee I must have forgotten my pills today!
Regards Phill Carter

 

OK, so I am wandering a tad off the undergraduate thread for a moment - but I would be very interested in learning what Podiatrists would like to study, in why, in a full fee paying Masters degree (in Aussie dollars - about $20 - 30K).

In Australia there is a requirement that pods going for surgical registration get a Masters, but what about the non-surgical folk? Would you be prepared to cough up the funds, and what would you expect to gain academically (and ultimately financially) from a Masters? I confess I own a Masters (in Education), but that is required as an academic. Would I want one as a practising podiatrist?

Your thoughts, dear colleagues.....

Felicity

 

A tad Off Thread

Felicity

Going to conference this year cost over £500 (UK) in direct costs, not including loss of earnings. That gives me only fifteen general CPD points, I still have to fork out for another fifteen core points.

A part time Masters would cost me about £500 per annum in fees plus texts, study days and exam but I belive would count in place of CPD. So I wonder whether an MSc might be cost effective in terms of money, time of course is something else. At present I am looking at what is on offer for part time study, the course content seem to vary, some with a multi disciplinary base, as might the presentation. Then there are some questions that interest me and I might like to research, for example; As laser light can not be coherent anymore after it strikes the skin do you need a laser in the first place, or What is the path of the force vector from the centre of mass during gait and how does this impact on the STJ. (Do Not Discuss Here)

Would I earn more money? Well I belive the public are impressed by the number of letters after your name whatever they might mean. So an MSc might go down well with patients and peers alike. Status at last. I might even get more referrals. All for not much more than doing CPD, time and effort notwithstanding.

Then again I am tempted to jump ship and study something completely different and more interesting to escape all the political wrangling in podiatry for something that might be more lucrative.

More off thread
Luke Hawkins

 

Extra Pay for Higher Qualifications

Felicity,
Podiatrists working in the public sector in Victoria recieve an extra allowance of $3266pa for having a Grad dip or Masters in an area relavent to their area of work or $4354pa for having a PhD. this has been the case for about 6 years now

 

My 2 Cents

Hi All

This has been a great thread. Taking a look intially at the undergraduate course, like previous postees ( ), I was completely disillusioned 18 months into my Podiatry degree, however with the introduction of some variety (surgery, biomechanics etc) I grew to love what I was doing. I also believe, as my only contact with a podiatrist prior to the course had been a sole sports med practitioner, my understanding of podiatry was obviously skewed.

Now five years out of Uni, I have spent four of these years either supervising students on placement, or managing first year graduates. From my observation there are significant differences in competencies of graduates and students, from the different universities. This I suspect is due to the different focuses of the different institutions. Point in case, it has been my observation that those graduates from West and South Australia seem better equipped with the "chiropody" type skills, whilst La Trobe graduates, seem to have a better grasp of biomechanics and surgery, and Queensland graduates have an unbelievable knowledge on radiological analysis and have a greater understanding of differing pathological problems. There is obviously variation amongst graduates from the same uni, however it seems much more noticible between institutions.

The second point on profession retention etc, I agree with Matthew and Craig, with respect to expectations. Many graduates arrived at their job with "stars in their eyes" about the huge sums of money they will make by doing biomechanics and surgeries. Once they discovered there was a lot of domicillary and general treatment, many either leave the practice to look for their dream job, or leave the profession. I know of one individual I graduated with, who was a brilliant student and from all accounts a great podiatrist (didn't hear much about the person after I graduated). Four years out, this person is no longer in the profession, and I feel it is a significant loss to podiatry

Finally with regard to Felicity and the Podiatry Masters Degree. I have toyed with the idea of doing my Masters for a while. I like the thought of being able to perform smaller surgical procedures (digital arthroplasty, Winnograds etc), however have no desire to perform the bigger types (buninectomy, K-wire fixations, triple arthrodesis etc). However the cost is prohibitive, because in real terms, whilst I can see the benefit in my knowledge base, I don't believe I would do enough procedures to justify the cost and the time. As a result I am doing a Masters in Health Services Management. I am finding this is opening many doors in healthcare administration (which I can influence policy for the better with respect to podiatry and allied health in general) which podiatry would not have done.

Sorry for the long post gang, just had a bit to get off my chest...a little more than 2 cents me thinks

A

 

1000 Hours

Matt,
The Podiatrists Registration Board of Victoria has no set requirements for the number of clinical hours in the undergraduate course. (it may have in the past). Podiatry courses are approved in Victoria based upon information supplied to the Board by the Universities.

The 1000 hours currently appears in the APodC course accreditation guidelines, and this appears to be driving the universities that way. And this may well become the default measure of an acceptable podiatry course.

Ultimately the Board is interested in the clinical competency of the graduates to ensure that they are not a risk to the public.

If this competency can be achieved with less than 1000 hours all well and good. The Universities should be having further talks with the APodC to ensure such accreditation processess are both acceptable and achievable.

 

I can give you another eg of where QUT grads have it over ours at LTU ... recently a rep for a certain supply company told me he can always tell a QUT grad from a LTU grad.... apparently when a QUT grad orders EVA, they ask for something like, "a sheet of the 10mm thick 260gm/cm3 density EVA" whereas a LTU grad just wants the "green stuff" --- me thinks we have a bit of work to do here

 

I'm sure you're up to the task Craig!!

 

Dear All, I also think it can be a case of what the staff and profession in the region seem to value.....how many Victorian Pods actually make devices, and how much importance is placed on these skills during training?
Regards Phill

 

Hi all,
A Masters is definitely worth the time. effort and expense
(not to mention blood, sweat and tears, mostly my Supervisor's ).

In the UK I believe many medics take an extra degree seriously, and I rather think my Masters has probably paid for itself by now (after 4 years) in terms of good medical, orthopaedic, and pod surgeon referrals.
Do patients take extra quals seriously - some of them, certainly the better educated.
Cheers,
David

 

under-rated

It’s now official, Podiatrists are under-rated. According to Senator Vanstone, Australian Senate Hansard, 7 December 2004, 2.40 pm: “I quite understand the need for good podiatrist – they are the most under-rated people in the world.”

Don’t despair, there is still vision within this profession of ours, along with a clear strategy to realise the vision.

 

Undergarduate education

Primary Care forms the large part of our occupation, thats because we are good at it and it gets results. As the research supports this,
http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=276
Those entering and in the profession should feel a great sense of worth.
Further as a clinical instructor I encounter students who under value primary care. I reinforce is value of primary care by presenting some research, but further explain to students as a podiatrist your focus is not just the feet but the entire patient. Each patient has our attention for 20 minutes or so. in this time you often pick up undiagnosed health issue.
I often refer patient to there GPs for assessment of cardivascular, respirator, circulatory, endocrinology, and rheumatology issues.
the patient returns 6-8/52 later most greatful, with your suspicisons confirmed. podiatrists offer an invaluable servcie, caring for patients not just feet

 

Relating to the initial bit of the thread, i.e. about "raising entry requirements", based on today's Queensland Tertiary Admissions Centre first round offers, podiatry in Queensland is reasonably competitive in that respect. Podiatry requires an OP5 (OP4 for the human movement/pod double) and this year OT and speech pathology required a minimum OP4 (Queensland uni entry is based on a scale from 25 to 1 with 1 being the highest). Still the easiest allied health course to get into, but up there. And a 5 is nothing to be sneezed at.

Relating to the later bits, about the retention stuff etc...

I'm going into my second year of pod at QUT. Halfway through last year I volunteered to help out at a day promoting rural health careers. After a semester of podiatry, I still didn't know what a podiatrist was. Early in second semester the course co-ordinator gave a "pep talk" on what podiatrists do/can do and yes, it didn't seem to stress the cutting toenails thing. At this point in time I _think_ I understand what a podiatrist does but I'm not really sure. A lot of this is from me going and looking up things on the internet... perhaps not the best way of getting information about the profession, and not all that effective either.

In terms of retention, my idea as an idealistic undergrad is that as long as I have enough to live on and enjoy the work I'll be happy. From what I understand there is a bit of flexibility in podiatry in terms of being able to work in private practice or public sector, but again I'm not 100% sure. At this point in time I want to do 2 years of pod work straight out of uni, preferably not in the city, and after that do some sort of post grad study (not necessarily in pod) and go to Indonesia for a while (if I can get work in public health or study public health there it'd be nice but I don't know how likely that is). I'm expecting to have to work in a number of different areas in my lifetime, and whether or not I end up spending 50 years in podiatry is still up in the air. I'm not sure what that says about retention. But I'm so happy to be studying pod and at the prospect of being a pod person. (Then again, maybe that's because I don't know what a podiatrist does really yet )

Ciao and sorry for the long post,
Ely.

 

Wow what a read....

What facinating brain food.....

As a QUT grad (glad to hear the radiography is still going well there) and someone that has moved on to greener pastures with post graduate studies....I find myself working 1 day in podiatry and am shocked when I have to pick up nail clippers as my case load is all under 16 years old, and this is the only reason I keep my foot in the profession (boom boom).

As we see the funding sources/government bodies priorities shifting, the plans for prevention and maintining quality of life, I often find myself a little dismayed when the students on placement are so full of the foot that they forget there is a body attached with other bits and also parents and grantparent etc.....

I recognise the need for clinical experience (and I would love to get a student one day that has actually touched a child....I know Latrobe is working on it but boy it make placments hard sometimes )....I think we need to continually keep this on agenda but also look at our profession as a wealth of information on other sources and the wholistic treatment of the client.

Given the number of podiatrist moving into public sector in victoria - why is there not an subject/elective subjeect on health promotion?? Something they will be require to perform as part of their funding within the public sector. Moving on from being poster princes/princess's to having an impact on a person's live by practising their individual consulation in a health promoting way and have the basics to partiscipate in a organisation strategy to allow a person to make a positive change.

I know I have created many a puzzled look by students over the years with this concept... surely it's not that hard to change the shift in thinking about the impact your potient treatment will make on a person's life - whether's it is a simple nail care treatment or a quick ankle block for pain relief???


Hmmm...just my ramblings in the wee hours of the morning with a 2 year old child not wanting to sleep

 

This has been a fascinating read. I'm just about to complete (fingers crossed) my first year of an undergraduate course. (University of Newcastle). There is one semester of Pharmacology this year, and again next year, presumably so we are in a position to prescribe if this happens. One thing I didn't like was the total lack of clinical training in 1st year - even teaching us how to choose & sterilise tools would have been worthwhile. I ended up privately arranging some (observational) work experience with a local podiatrist just to see what they actually do!!
I've previously completed a Diploma & Associate Diploma at TAFE & found the teaching style & content very different. TAFE taught theory, but the emphasis was on gaining practical skills which you were going to use in your work. To me, Podiatry is very much "hands on" and more time should be spent on this rather than reams of academia.
Maybe this view is a result of my previous training, or I just don't understand the University system enough yet. I understand it is aimed at recruiting researchers & academics, but surely those that want to continue down that path will do their Masters?
I know we have to complete a minimum 1000 hours clinical to pass our course. Can't wait!
Cheers, Kara

 

Kara,

The university system is aimed at developing inquiring minds. there is no way you can learn all that you need to as a podiatrist in an undergraduate course or 3 or 4 years. Hopefully the university system will educated you to educate yourself so you will be able to find the answers to pathologies you haven't seen before, and be able to keep up with new developments that the academics and researchers discover.

 

Thanks. We're certainly getting the "teach yourself" part down pat - doing 2 online courses this semester. I'm glad you said we won't come out of it knowing all we need - I just hope I feel more competent & confident in the knowledge I do have at the end to be able to help people a bit. I certainly didn't feel that way after coming out of a 2 year Remedial Massage course. The teachers said you begin to learn after you leave & I found that pretty much true.
I'll just have to lurk around here & pick everyone's brain
Cheers.

 

Hi this really has been an interesting thread and has raised a lot of questions.

Going back to the original question: Should the entry requirements be raised for entry to undergraduate programmes? In my honest opinion they should not. I feel that the profession as a whole would benefit far greater if aptitude tests were carried out instead. I feel that the most important requirement to studying any health care profession should be first and foremost a caring disposition!

Its brilliant that we as a profession want to be able to progress our careers and our scope of practice. But we must also bear in mind that our patients needs must come first. I have spent the last 12 months servicing a hospice and care of the elderly hospital as part of my practice. It was by no means the most glamorous part of my work. However in some ways was the most rewarding. The oncology team could have a patients cancer managed and their pain scores lowered but their ingrowing toenail could be causing them pain.

We need to remember that we see hundreds of corns every week and we can take them for granted - but it only takes one corn to make a patients life miserable.

Have we in a strive to become extended scope practitioners actually forgotten the importance of basic care? For after all is prevention not better than cure?

 

hey every 1 i am a new first year (actually almost 2nd year0 student in south africa and i really have this dream to accquire the best skills i can get, i would just like to have info regarding the requirements for surgical residency cause i am reaaly interested any help appreciated emails welcome thanks wacth out for the name stephen vermeulen in years to come

:morning: