Bullying

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OK, I have now stood in the wings long enough and witnessed what I can only describe as bullying. The motivation for this bullying is thinly disguised as concern for the wellbeing of the patient, but seems to me to be fuelled by the outrage of certain members of this forum who were fortunate enough to have had the educational advantages which allowed them the opportunity to study for a number of years and get a medical qualification in foot care.

Whether some of you like it or not, the opportunity now exists for ‘anyone’ to train, qualify (sorry if the use of that word offends you) and set up in private practice as a Foot Healthcare Practitioner. Let’s strip away all the hype and flim-flam here, a FHP will spend the vast majority of their time trimming toe-nails, carving calluses and mining corns, they are not likely to be performing amputations or skin grafts. These are the everyday foot maintenance activities that an increasingly large number of people do not have the eyesight, dexterity or flexibility to carry out themselves.

Speaking for myself, I am a professional man in my 50’s who has decided that I am no longer willing or able to cope with the unhealthy stress of a full time career in commerce and is looking for an alternative way of paying my mortgage. I fully understand the limitations of the training I am receiving and respect the boundaries between general foot maintenance and full on medical procedures which obviously need to be carried out by someone properly trained and qualified in that discipline.

I am under no illusions, I realise that the bulk of my target clientele will comprise of elderly people with limited capabilities and matching budgets, but people who may also benefit from the human contact involved in a visit from a friendly face who can chat to them whilst carrying out those basic tasks they are no longer able to perform themselves. Ask yourself; is this the kind of procedure you studied for 3 or 4 years at medical school to carry out? How often do you visit people’s houses and get your scalpel out?

I have witnessed a large number of people in my position visiting this forum, probably (as was my case) as a result of Googling a basic question about some aspect of setting up as a FHP. Only to be bombarded by the ‘grandees’ who seem to hover over these forums like sentinels, with sagacious but discouraging advice on the error of their ways, and that they should in fact take time out to get a proper medical degree before having the temerity to encroach upon their hallowed turf.

Now whilst I do honestly respect the time and effort you invested in your training (which by the way is no longer free) and the years you have practiced, you must understand that this path is not available to everyone. I myself left school at 15 with no qualifications whatsoever so the chances of getting a medical degree are nil to vanishing.

It needs to be accepted that there is a place for FHP’s in the wider healthcare market and that they do not pose a threat to medically qualified health professionals. Whilst I truly do have the utmost admiration and respect for medically trained professionals I would ask you to acknowledge that those of us who are training to be FHP’s are not doing so to cause harm to our prospective clients, just improve the quality of their lives. I would also like to point out that a medical qualification does not necessarily equate to excellence in patient care, I’ll just mention Hawley Crippen and Howard Shipman and leave that there.

I will now sit back with interest and brace myself for the onslaught of avuncular and seemingly well meaning comments which will no doubt put me firmly in my place. But having invested a fair amount of my precious time and redundancy money into pursuing this enterprise I hope you will forgive me if I continue with my training and hopefully, eventually bring a little pleasure and ease into people’s lives in the comfort of their own homes. I promise that I will call loudly for your help should I encounter a case of congenital talipes equinovarus, I know me place Guv!

 

I believe there to be two fundamental issues that underlie most 'pod versus fhp' debates. Firstly the vast majority of work within the private sector is relatively routine, because that's where most of the demand comes from. This means that fhps and pods are often chasing the same market. Secondly, and crucially in my view, the general public have no idea of the difference between the two professions. In their eyes we are all chiropodists, regardless of whether or not we have done a few months training as an fhp, or several years in a University and/or hospital, attaining one or maybe two degrees. They tend to assume we are all the same, and I think that's where most of the podiatrists' resentment comes from. I think I had a bit of it too, as a rookie (mainly because I didn't even know that fhps existed when I was training as a pod. Got a bit of a shock when I realised the complexities of the marketplace)...but several years on I have explained the difference to my patients, and accepted that some may prefer the services of an fhp.

 

Sorry I didn't vote in your poll...most of the options seem a bit odd. I don't even understand what the first one actually means!

 

Brendanreidy,
Firstly I don't understand your poll.

Secondly, your attempt to defend the existence of FHPs is the same old garbage that we here from the unregulated sector time and time again. If you look through the threads on this forum the same old arguments keep coming out and it get boring.

FHPs are outside the profession of podiatry and have their own networks/forum/tutor support etc where they can ask advice, so if they don't like the responses they get here maybe they should return there?

Those that are considering setting up as an FHP should do their homework before they embark on any training, in the same way as if they were studying plumbing or IT. It's amazing how many don't ask even basic questions before shelling out £1,000s.

CF

 

Folks Moderator hat on-

This issue has gone around and around - Just asking for it to be kept civil.

Maybe some of the passion should directed to those that make decisions rather than the individual.

Anyway carry on and please keep in civil - Thanks have a nice day.

Here end the moderation, I hope.
__________________

 

I'd like to point out that we don't see much bullying on this forum. That's partly due to the international nature of the membership and partly, of course, due to the excellent moderation.

Bad manners and ignorance (both of which are displayed on another thread not too far away), although pretty inexcusable coming from an adult, should not be confused with bullying.

 

Victoriah,

Just to clear up the poll confusion, the 4 choices are a rising scale ranging from mental morbidity rising to scintillating acuity, just done with a poor attempt at humour, sorry you didn't get it.

I am sorry if I seem to be spouting "the same old garbage" that others before me have, and that "it get boring", I have only recently discovered this forum and was unaware I was being repeatative .

In light of your 'friendly' invitation below to 'go and play in my own street' I will take my opinions elsewhere, leave you to your protected little world and not bother you again. I will just observe in parting that the vehemence of your response portrays an attitude I'm sure not all pods would wish to subscribe to, a little on the rude side in my opinion, you may want to watch that in future.

"Goodbye and thanks for all the fish" (do you understand that one?)

FHPs are outside the profession of podiatry and have their own networks/forum/tutor support etc where they can ask advice, so if they don't like the responses they get here maybe they should return there?

 

Victoriah,

Please accept my deepest apologies for ascribing the remarks make by 'Catfoot' to your good self. I am also sorry if I appeared to be somewhat rising to the bait on the issues under discussion, I put this down to the natural grumpiness which comes with my age :wacko:.

I have no desire to spark unhealthy arguments so this will be my swan song (unless of course I simply can't resist chipping in again)

David and Mike,

Sorry if I have given you cause to break off from your toast and preserves to referee this little contre' temps, this was not my intention. I actually came here originally looking for advise and I leave it having been given a short but powerful shot of it.

You both seem to be conducting your duties in a fair and considered manner, it looks like a very mature and well regulated forum. Good luck for the future.

Kind Regards,

Brendan.

 

Hi Brendan

I'm not sure which FHP organisation you are training or have trained with but I do appreciate your endeavour to bridge a gap between the FHP and Podiatrist situation. Unfortunately this is likely an endeavour that will bring you more frustration than success, for a whole host of reasons.

From the outset it might be useful for you to know that I began as a SMAE trained chiropodist, who now train FHP's. I then progressed my knowledge and skill further from there and eventually did the top up degree at Brighton Uni. Fortunately I was helped along the way by various, what were then, state registered Pods who gave me their time, expertise and encouragement one of who was David Holland who has posted above and to whom I am grateful.

That outlined, in part Brendan, some of this issue must be laid at the doors of some current trainers in FHP work. For example, the SMAE once trained chiropodists and Podiatrists and fought hard to claim equality between state and non-state trained pods (it was a battle then as well). It worked tirelessly to equalise the situation and win a place, via grand-parenting, for its members onto the HPC as chiropodists Podiatrists. (this might paint them in too rosy a light but allow me poetic licence). From my point, all credit to it for that.

But then what? Having made all the moves it did, secured a place for its members, utilised the situation to force the state trained to have to accept grand-parenting it then immediately changed its tack and developed the FHP course, creating a situation both for its own chiropody members and Society members.

It was for me this clearly cynical business move that caused me to leave the SMAE and British Chiropody and Podiatry situation and on completing the top up degree join the SCP, not necessarily a perfect group either (none of us are).

Against this back ground I think you have to acknowledge that the full time trained pods could be said to have an axe to grind. However, in fairness, it seems it is not their only one as clearly there are clinical issues often at the source of criticism and debate and I am sure it is this latter issue that is their main contention.

Some of these people may be vociferous if not down right blunt but I would have to draw the line at bullying, frustrated and angry yes, bullying no. And when it does even look to be showing its potential head others will make it quite clear it is not acceptable and speak out.

Hope this helps. BTW I did get the poll and the humour, just no point in me doing it.

 

And you've NOT been hit By flying lead..... (anti-war/speeding song of the weekend, travelling back down the M1) Stick around, Brendan. There`s much to learn and offer on the Arena.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfAWReBmxEs&feature=related

Cheers,:drinks
Bel

 

Dear Brendan

What happened with the HPC and grandparenting is not new.

This previously happened in about 1961 when the, i hope my memory does not fail me, 2 year course offered by schools of chiropody was accepted on to the then new State Register.

Grandparenting was offered to those who trained with the correspondence schools, of which the SMAE Institute was one, as this would enable the planned 3 year Diploma Course to become the NORM.

As History showed SMAE and the other non formal sector trainers carried on training chiropodists via the correspondence method.

As Ian Linane has explained when the HPC came into being the informal sector was given the opportunity to allow its trainees to be Grandparented onto the HPC register.

it was presumed that SMAE and others would then have the good grace to train to the new standard.

The outcome was the FHP :deadhorse:

So it turns out to be 1961 all over again.

So the situation of no uniform minmum training reamains.

We now have new competition in the form of fish doing our work.

Trouble with this is that the fish practitioners eat drink sleep mate and crap in their clinical environment.

If any pod was to do the same at work they would be HPC'd out of practice.

Will this stop them practicing ?

Of course not

They become FHP's

regards David

 

I don't think fish do our work.

 

Re: Spot the loony

Maybe they could if they were licensed;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnq96W9jtuw

 

think their fins would struggle with scalpel handles!

 

I tried to get one to grind off an insole for me once. It was a disaster. It dropped the insole, fell to the floor, flapped a bit then died. :boohoo:I've only ever had that happen twice with human Podiatrists. As I said, fish (and fhps) really DON'T do our work.

 

Just to clarify further - The initial grandparenting round also took in those chiropodists trained by the Red Cross. This training was rudimentary at best, at worst it was probably no more than that provided by Age Concern now.

Of course there was never any hope of the three-year Diploma course becoming the norm, since we did not close the profession. However, one of the first indications that the three-year Diploma had some value of it's own was when LA was introduced. The course was in two parts, Part A and Part B. We who had completed the three-year Diploma were exempt from Part A and could go straight on to Part B. Academically the three-year Diploma did not carry much weight otherwise. It allowed access onto degree top-ups when they were introduced, but then so did HPC registration of the grandparented later on.

I'm not sure where David gets his information about a presumption that SMAE and others would start training to the new standard when the HPC came into being.
SMAE initially moved towards this, with a top-up degree running for those newly grandparented, and a full-time degree on the table if not actually running. The SCP were, as far as I am aware, privy to what SMAE were doing at this time. There were certainly regular meetings between SMAE and representatives of the SCP (usually the SCP Chairman and one other). They will have had their own reasons for reverting to FHP training.

It should be remembered that the policy-makers who allowed the inclusion of a podiatry profession which did not have the protection of functional closure into the HPC included the SCP. Indeed, prominent members of the SCP were actively involved in interviewing prospective grandparented.
SMAE were included in the discussion process, as were the Institute, and the Alliance I imagine.

 

Ian,

Thanks' very much for the background info, it puts the whole issue into perspective for me. I can of course fully empathise with those of you who have studied for years to get where you are, only to have your positions seemingly usurped by 'newbs' (I got that word from my 13 year old son) who have not done the spadework.

I can only say 'sorry', but this does not mean I will now decide against this path which I am already part way down and have financially invested in. I do not believe my decision would have been any different were I privvy to this apparently long running battle before I started my course. Having worked out that there are approximately twice as many feet as there are people in this world I would say that there is probably plenty of opportunity for us all to thrive and survive, toe nails don't stop growing just because the economy does!

If I can earn a living and put a roof over my family's head by carrying out routine foot maintenance for those who are not able to do so themselves then I feel I ought to be free to do so, on the understanding that I understand the limitations of my training and abilities. I've been cutting my own nails for some part of no small time now and considered myself rather capable, even before I started studying the task.

If I were to later be given the opportunity to further my education in this field I would be delighted to do so and grateful to those who were willing to give of their valuable time. To answer an earlier question, I am studying with Stonebridge College and have elected to attend a two week residential practical clinic once the theoretical phase of my training is complete. The base offering was one week but even a rookie (my son's word again) like me thought that might be rushing things a tad.

I will concede that my original title for this thread was a trifle sensationalist and can in retrospect see that it was bound to raise a few eyebrows, but it does lead me, in closing back to the point I was trying to make.

Whether everyone agrees or not on the prevailing situation regarding FHP's it must be accepted that they are not going to dissapear, like it or not we are part of the landscape now and for the foreseeable future. Having accepted that fact, it would be nice to witness a bit more paternal help and compassion for our situation, and a smidgeon less 'durm und strang' from those we are seeking to learn from and be guided by, that just sets the wrong tone dont you think?

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this debate, I found it both enjoyable and educational and I might now just hang around in the wings and see what I can pick up from the seasoned pro's on the stage.

Kind Regards,

Brendan.

 

Hello Brendan

I think this is the crux of the problem. The inability of the recognised colleges to offer tailored courses to develop a range of foot health related clinicians to meet the increasing demands of the public for the care this sector provides, is perhaps, the most obvious reasons for continuing intra-professional problems between the various groups. I fully accept your point about entry qualifications and mature applicants, but where the courses are funded by the NHS, you have to recognise that "workforce planning" has an impact beyond that which may be desirable or even essential. Said planning is usually restrictive in its boundaries and rarely productive for the profession or its patients! Perhaps when the profession is ambitious enough to organise its own undergraduate education and training out-with the influences of the Department of Health, we might see an end to the issues you allude to.

As far as your comments on various clinicians and their scope of practice, it is notoriously difficult to suggest who might be best placed to provide care. Many years ago, I did some work for a NHS Trust in a remote and rural region in Scotland. Many of the house calls were for patients who required simple foot care - some even as simple as cutting non pathological toenails with no other presenting problems. Some patients had complicating pathology - such as diabetes - with and without neuropoathy and/or angiopathy.

One such patient was an otherwise fit lady who although diabetic, had hitherto, no foot problems other than an inability to cut her own toenails. During the course of her consultation she mentioned that both her large toes had become "numb" overnight. She had no previous episodes of neuropathy from what I could make out from her records and she enjoyed relatively good health (diabetes excepted) other than an bout of seasonal influenza a few months previously. The temptation to advise that the "numbness" was nothing other than a transient neuropathic episode, was obvious, but something suggested otherwise - and that was confirmed the following morning when I contacted her again to see if the problem had cleared. It hadn't - if anything the "numbness" had progressed to the lesser toes and midfoot and she now had problems moving both large toes. By later that day she was having difficulty with movement at the ankle joint and she thought that the numbness was progressing to the heel area on both feet.

She was fortunate enough to have a good rural GP who was receptive enough to respect the views of other health colleagues and he kindly arranged an emergency helicopter evac to Glasgow for a neurology investigtion - which confirmed my suspicions of Guillain–Barré syndrome .

The point of this is that it's not always just the presenting complaint that one needs to consider - it is having sufficient knowledge about the foot and lower extremity to appreciate when other pathologies - local and systemic - may present adverse risk to the patient's health and well-being, and I am not convinced that the educational programme with some of the private training facilities actually gives the student sufficient depth of knowledge when the need arises, like it did with me in the above case. You might suggest that part of the responsibility of any clinician is to know when to refer on - but one has to have suffient understanding to recognise when seemingly innocent conditions may mask something rather more sinister, and I am not convinced that any of the FHP courses do so at present.

Kind regards

Mark Russell

 

Who said Harold Shipman was a bad doctor?

 

Hi All

Mark

Your comments on the level of training FHP's recieve could surly be leveled at degree trained pods ??

Have we not seen several instances recently of inexperienced pods launching off on a somewhat dubious tx without the knowledge of the legal aspect or the sense to know what they are treating before they start ??

We non of us know it all but the lifelong learning maixim should apply to minimise instances as you have described going unnoticed.

Brendan

I'm also SMAE trained back in 1988, when I qualified, things were very very different to what they are today

I have argued my cause with those that were willing to listen (Mark is one)all the time since then. I warn you the die hard bigots will be rude insult you throughout your time in the foot industry so dont be so sensitive.

Bel gave you very sage advice DONT walk away from the arena it is a great learning medium just watch from a distance till you get the hang of it and learn who are the good guys and who are not.

Ian and Bel went on to do degree courses but I did not because of my age when the opportunity arose.

My advice is NEVER stop learning , go to CPD ask questions, observe where you can.

DONT just sit cutting toe nails all day and think that's all there is too it because if you do you couldnt be more wrong and we can all give instances of practitioners that did that and paid the price

There is a world of foot knowledge out there and on here.

Use all of it and most of all ENJOY !!

Good luck for the future:drinks

Cheers
D

 

A tad over enthusiastic then maybe?

It also occurs to me that Mr. Hitler was not necessarily too shoddy as a chancellor but I don't really think this means we can overlook his other shortcomings nes pas'?

 

Absolutely. There are many degree/diploma trained clinicians whose knowledge and professionalism leave a lot to be desired. That said, you would think that three or four year full time course of study would equip them better for their vocation as opposed to a one or two week part time residential course - or in some cases, no training whatsoever. One also has to consider the course syllabus itself. The established schools are all subject to careful scrutiny from, I assume, the HPC and the university regulators. The likes of Stonebridge and SMAE decided not to open themselves to similar standards. One may form their own conclusion why this may be so.

Kindest

Mark

 

'Mr. Hitler was not necessarily too shoddy as a chancellor'

Quite right, anyone who can get from 6 million unemployed to full employment in 3 years can`t be all bad !

 

D,

Thanks' for that, a very balanced and fair minded message. I am not in reality such a sensitive flower that I can't take a few verbal jousts here and there, I spent almost 30 years doing battle in board rooms with aggresive clients and CEO's so I know how to stand my corner.

I will however heed your words and stand back for a while and watch the 'big boys and girls' play and see what I can pick up. As for spending the rest of my career sitting on my little stool weilding my burs and scalpels, that also would not be my style. In the time I have left to practice (before I need someone to visit me) I will be attempting to learn all I can, if a job's worth doing etc.!

Many thanks,
Brendan.

 

brendan you describe yourself as a professional man in your 50s professional generaly equates with being successfull so why do you want to be atoe nail cutter when you should be thinking about retirement not eaking out a living on the outer rim of footcare sounds like you like taking the easy no effort route this is perhaps why your last career was not a resounding success. food for thought.you witter on about the huge cost of your new training christ man my annual golf club fees
are more than this paltry sum . and by the way if you are in your late 50s and were a boardroom wizard why have you not payed off your morgage you silly boy. this old argument you have stirred up is totally lame and boring your twistin my melon man.

 

brendan your poll is as boring as your post. however on reflection ive an idea for you as you implied you had cut your own nails for nigh on 50 years and were doing such agood job perhaps this might 1/2 qualify you as a foot tinkering professional,it also follows you have been an expert at wiping your own arse for at least 47 years so perhaps a job working in a nursing home would suit you equally as well. jesus man you know what this means you are multitalented

 

please god somebody close this thread

 

Gee, I hope this doesnt happen in Australia, I fear there may not be enough feet.. just yet. I love my clipping my oldies nails. Sure I have two degrees, but I dont want to lose my nice steady stress free job to someone that has a $2K qualif., compared to my $33K worth of degrees..

 

You listening, Mark?

BTW, thanks for the tips on plantar plate rupture. Owe you a drink, again.

 

just having some fun blinda to help kill the boredom

 

Fishpod,

You are a very witty young man and I'm sorry that I seem to have inadvertantly managed to twist your 'melon man', I do hope he's ok now.

You make a number of assumptions which I will not challenge as I'm sure that the benefit of maturity will eventually enlighten you far more than I could ever hope to.

I'm very pleased to see that you are successful (maybe you are a 'banker'?) and can afford to belong to a private golf club, well done, I hope you never encounter any financial hardship in your life. As for myself, I have lived a long, happy, complicated but expensive life and you may find as you get older that things don't always work out quite as you expected.

In conclusion I would observe that you seem to have become somewhat fraught over my posting and I would suggest that you and your 'melon man' take the afternoon off for a nice relaxing 18 holes and try to unwind a little, life's too short to expend such vitriol on someone you don't know.

To the moderators:

I agree with a previous poster that it is probably time to close this thread down now as I suspect it has become a tad long in the tooth, plus I would hate to run the risk of interfering with the well-being of anyone else's fruit.

Kind Regards,
Brendan.

 

Thanks for the LOL!

Nobody wants to see torsion of cantaloupes.

 

My dear boy,

You appear to be a bitter and sarcastic little man, you should get your mother to wash out your 'potty-mouth' before you go posting to a public website. Not everyone is impressed by your gutter wit and bad language.

This is my final word on the whole sorry affair, I wish to God I'd never started it.

Moderators....PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD before fishboy blows a gasket.

Many Thanks,
BR

 

you started this thread to get a reaction. i respect your training etc etc. but you tell us you still want to compete for the finite pot of money out there and you seem to revel in the fact that you are doing 2weeks training instead of 1 week well im sure that extra week will benefit your new clients immensly .yours a sarcastic but never bitter fishpod

 

I had a question on the poll...what is wisedom? Mybad?

 

Noooo, not yet, it's just starting to get interesting !

Brendan, because of Fishpod's lack of punctuation (particularly commas) you have missed the joke. What he/she meant was "you're twisting my melon, man." Translation = " you're pulling my leg" or "you're taking the Mickey". if you don't hail from the NW of UK then maybe the humour is lost on you. Let's just put it down to the North/South divide.

Catfoot

 

ah somebody who speaks mancs sorry bout the gramma

 

ahhh, what havoc can be wreaked by the lack of a comma?

I can speak Mancunian, Scouse, and most Lancashire dialects, chuck !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_dialect

If you are short on commas here are a few spares for you Fishpod ,,,,,,,,, you can take as many as you like.

For those not from the NW of UK this type of sarcastic humour could well be wasted ....

regards

Catfoot

 

Are you posting from a mobile fishpod?

 

ah rumbled again peter