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Challenging the foundations of the clinical model of foot function

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by NewsBot, Jan 31, 2017.

  1. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Yes, you are scared. I've tried to point out the direction of this technology to those answers to the constant questions you ask each other for discussion. The constant frustration that you yourselves recognize there is no sufficient science to explain what you yourself are dissatisfied in the results and not being able ti figure it out-precisely with traditional orthotic tech (other than Newtonian sci). If you really want to elevate yourselves to the level of bio-mechanical experts, you need to recognize that if you can't be scientifically precise in your prescription to the bio-mechanics of the foot, you're always going to have discussions like that—forever! You need a study before you can be interested? The science is better than a study, it lets you know what to expect.

    Managing a biomechanical case takes up to ten (10) years, adults and children (starting around 10 yrs). Anecdotal probably comes to mind. Take it or leave it! You call it unscientific, I call it liar—you are scared.

    So, I say you are scared. You just don't want to be wrong in your theories. The funny thing is not only is this technology a benefit to mankind, if you do the same job as educating the public about the positive health benefits of wearing pronation modification every day just like the dentists did for oral care, you'd need to be able to see and fit a pt every 3-5 minutes (the more difficult cases are another matter). The patients who need this and anyone who believes and practices preventative medicine are the biggest losers.

    This works for those fortunate to fit the technology (say more than half, for the detractors) , the rest are cases that requires different technology, it's just that simple.

    You were discussing congruency and the inability to measure, I said you can measure it, and you can try to palpate it at the TNJ jt. Hydro-dynamic technology for the human foot (walking and running) is the most precise scientifically calibrated biomechanical tool. I know you and your supporters don't want it Kevin I just wanted to do this for the record so that history can make their judgments and there's enough good starting information for those that follow.

    When you recognize the biomechanical issues that you don't know or are unsure of , it's very satisfying as a health healer, when you do. An academic website?? I say it's just a boys club out of date.
     
  2. Yes, Dennis. History will make its judgement. After you are long gone, no one will remember you and your fluid-filled plastic in-shoe cushions. Just type the name "Dennis Kiper" into Google Scholar, and see how much you have influenced and will influence foot and lower extremity biomechanics in the years to come. Not a bit.
     
  3. Petcu Daniel

    Petcu Daniel Active Member

  4. Not the best
     
  5. drhunt1

    drhunt1 Well-Known Member

    So...is that your basis for discernment, Kevin? How many people have you led down the wrong path...by what you've written and contend? Let me assure you, history will not be kind to you, either. And that's not because of your anti-Trump diatribe. It's because you just don't "get it".
     
  6. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    What Kevin really doesn't get is that bio-mechanics is about "mechanical efficiency" of function. That is the key to affecting tissue efficiency. It's the ME that affects lever arm efficiency and that affects and effects "tissue efficiency".
    Not just reducing pronation by guessing at the degrees of a post and how it affects one muscle or the action of the spring ligament. And it definitely has nothing to do with STJ axial theory or tissue stress theory.
    1) loading time
    2) reduction of peak proportionate pressure (not just cushioned pressure, because that is disproportionate and that still contributes to the imbalance and pathology.
    3)distribution and balance of pronatory and wt bearing forces
    4) mobility of lat/med columns
    then you can identify the timely consequence of foot contact to the ground and functional mechanical alignment for prescription purposes.
    Here the key is reliability and consistency of what is visible in our gait scan technology. Traditional orthotic technology has been inconsistent and unreliable, because the figuration of present day orthotics cannot flex to give accurate data in all 3 planes.
     
  7. efuller

    efuller MVP

    Ok Dennis, show us that you get it and are not just throwing out random words.

    How are you defining and measuring mechanical efficiency?

    What is tissue efficiency? How wo

    What do you mean by lever arm efficiency? How are using this term in relation to your device?


    What is peak proportionate pressure? What is cushioned pressure? and how do either of these affect imbalance? Why did you number those points?

    It looks like you are just throwing words without regards to meaning.

    "cannot flex to give accurate data..." How are orthotics supposed to give data?

    Dennis show us that you get it. (Or just go away) If you cannot define your terms, you don't know what you are talking about.
     
  8. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    show us that you get it and are not just throwing out random words.
    Why do I need to prove I get it? I've been working with this technology for 30 years.
    What random words are you having trouble with? I saw your post last night--you asked me to define "mechanical efficiency" , "balance", "lever arm efficiency" and "tissue efficiency". It appears you edited that post that appears now. Really Eric--you need a definition for those terms?
    There are 3 principles of physics that support the terms used in my description of hydro-dynamic technology. Maybe you don't understand the physics involved in the use of those terms. Last year I posted the scans of a barefoot and the same foot with modified pronation (new term for you), which confirm those principles. You didn't have anything to say, why was that? Was it because you don't get it?
    Why do I need to define these terms for you? Is it because they don't apply and therefore not used pursuant to your technology? All the terms I use are found in text books of kinesiology, orthopedics, mechanical engineering and podiatry--look them up and then try asking a question.
    Hydro-dynamic orthotic technology is radically different than traditional orthotic tech, its scientifically based rather than theoretically based, it does require some differences in language. That's why, what appears random to you, are simply coined for a more accurate description.
    What is peak proportionate pressure?
    I meant proportionate peak pressure (that better?) because you asked me to define "balance" for you--for me it is the prescriptive distribution of wt bearing and pronatory forces in all 3 planes--which results in proportionate peak pressure. For this technology it is the scientific principles that makes it able to precisely measure (by scan tech) that gives me the tool to optimize bio-mechanical efficiency of the functional mechanics of a foot.
    Balance is mechanical efficiency in foot function. Mechanical efficiency results in tissue efficiency (the reverse of tissue stress). This technology does exactly what it's supposed to for a foot orthotic and living organism.
    Eric, What is your definition of "balance"?
    Because trad tech is unreliable, inconsistent and inaccurate, you can't properly read that difference between a barefoot scan and one where pronation has been accurately modified. Look up the thread of the scans I posted that illustrates this. That's what balance is about. Modifying the independent ROM of each metatarsal's ground reactive force, it then can give you all the information you need to understand the terms I've used, and give you the opportunity to better predict the bio-mechanical outcome of the lower extremity pathologies we treat. You can't see it, that's why you don't get it because other than Newton's third law (which you once suggested as the science behind your technology), there is no science that supports your technology, it's just a part of it. Newtons 3rd law is applied by not only mine and every other orthotic, but also applies to barefoot readings. Barefoot is the only accurate reading you get to see of the mechanical action of the gait cycle. With HD, there are 3 principles of physics which supports what I say (incl Newton's...). These principles of physics are confirmed by gait scan tech. It's scientifically evident, if you knew how to read the scans and could recognize it.
    What is cushioned pressure?
    It is the disproportionate distribution of wt bearing and pronatory forces. So, while a cushion may reduce grf, it does not fully increase mechanical alignment-accurately. As stated, therefore it still contributes to imbalance and the pathology. This is not efficient balance.
    Why did you number those points?
    Those are factors of ME. Don't you think if mechanically an accurate functional orthotic increases the loading time to midstance, reduces proportionate peak pressure, shortens foot contact to the ground, and prolongs the balance and stability of the forefoot and MTJ at heel off a result of ME? Find those scans--I'll help you read them so you get it.
    With Tekscan tech, and comparative values to traditional tech, I can anecdotally tell you about up to 70% improvement or call it mechanical efficiency over a traditional orthotic, how do you think that would rate with a pt with PF, a diabetic ulcer, and even an IPK
    With this technology, the mechanics changes instantly, the bio part can take years to heal.

    It looks like you are just throwing words without regards to meaning.

    No, you don't get it. Hydro-dynamic technology goes back in time to the Archimedes Principle, it's a matter of recognizing the physics involved. This is about a technology that works the way it's supposed to. It's about bio-mechanical medicine, a scientifically calibrated Rx. It's about recognizing that this technology offers a health benefit to mankind (for those that fit the technology). Like educating people to brush their teeth for oral health, this is for bio-mechanical health.
    This is about changing the mechanical efficiency of ambulation. Reducing daily wear and tear and extending our bio-mechanical health.
    "cannot flex to give accurate data..." How are orthotics supposed to give data?

    HD orthotics don't give the data, they modify the motion of pronation from heel contact to heel off by assisting the structure (machinery) and mirroring the mechanics. Loading and unloading stance phase-100% of contact to the ground.
    Definition of ME?--look it up in any of the thousands of text books of mechanical engineering. The human foot is simply a locomotor apparatus, subject to the same stresses and strains of any functional mechanical operation. You just have to think a little out of the box and see that fitting a Rx foot orthotic is like fitting Rx glasses. Then, bio-mechanical function can be more accurately interpreted.
    Podiatry should lead the way.
     
  9. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    show us that you get it and are not just throwing out random words.
    Why do I need to prove I get it? I've been working with this technology for 30 years.
    What random words are you having trouble with? I saw your post last night--you asked me to define "mechanical efficiency" , "balance", "lever arm efficiency" and "tissue efficiency". It appears you edited that post that appears now. Really Eric--you need a definition for those terms?
    There are 3 principles of physics that support the terms used in my description of hydro-dynamic technology. Maybe you don't understand the physics involved in the use of those terms. Last year I posted the scans of a barefoot and the same foot with modified pronation (new term for you), which confirm those principles. You didn't have anything to say, why was that? Was it because you don't get it?
    Why do I need to define these terms for you? Is it because they don't apply and therefore not used pursuant to your technology? All the terms I use are found in text books of kinesiology, orthopedics, mechanical engineering and podiatry--look them up and then try asking a question.
    Hydro-dynamic orthotic technology is radically different than traditional orthotic tech, its scientifically based rather than theoretically based, it does require some differences in language. That's why, what appears random to you, are simply coined for a more accurate description.
    What is peak proportionate pressure?
    I meant proportionate peak pressure (that better?) because you asked me to define "balance" for you--for me it is the prescriptive distribution of wt bearing and pronatory forces in all 3 planes--which results in proportionate peak pressure. For this technology it is the scientific principles that makes it able to precisely measure (by scan tech) that gives me the tool to optimize bio-mechanical efficiency of the functional mechanics of a foot.
    Balance is mechanical efficiency in foot function. Mechanical efficiency results in tissue efficiency (the reverse of tissue stress). This technology does exactly what it's supposed to for a foot orthotic and living organism.
    Eric, What is your definition of "balance"?
    Because trad tech is unreliable, inconsistent and inaccurate, you can't properly read that difference between a barefoot scan and one where pronation has been accurately modified. Look up the thread of the scans I posted that illustrates this. That's what balance is about. Modifying the independent ROM of each metatarsal's ground reactive force, it then can give you all the information you need to understand the terms I've used, and give you the opportunity to better predict the bio-mechanical outcome of the lower extremity pathologies we treat. You can't see it, that's why you don't get it because other than Newton's third law (which you once suggested as the science behind your technology), there is no science that supports your technology, it's just a part of it. Newtons 3rd law is applied by not only mine and every other orthotic, but also applies to barefoot readings. Barefoot is the only accurate reading you get to see of the mechanical action of the gait cycle. With HD, there are 3 principles of physics which supports what I say (incl Newton's...). These principles of physics are confirmed by gait scan tech. It's scientifically evident, if you knew how to read the scans and could recognize it.
    What is cushioned pressure?
    It is the disproportionate distribution of wt bearing and pronatory forces. So, while a cushion may reduce grf, it does not fully increase mechanical alignment-accurately. As stated, therefore it still contributes to imbalance and the pathology. This is not efficient balance.
    Why did you number those points?
    Those are factors of ME. Don't you think if mechanically an accurate functional orthotic increases the loading time to midstance, reduces proportionate peak pressure, shortens foot contact to the ground, and prolongs the balance and stability of the forefoot and MTJ at heel off a result of ME? Find those scans--I'll help you read them so you get it.
    With Tekscan tech, and comparative values to traditional tech, I can anecdotally tell you about up to 70% improvement or call it mechanical efficiency over a traditional orthotic, how do you think that would rate with a pt with PF, a diabetic ulcer, and even an IPK
    With this technology, the mechanics changes instantly, the bio part can take years to heal.

    It looks like you are just throwing words without regards to meaning.

    No, you don't get it. Hydro-dynamic technology goes back in time to the Archimedes Principle, it's a matter of recognizing the physics involved. This is about a technology that works the way it's supposed to. It's about bio-mechanical medicine, a scientifically calibrated Rx. It's about recognizing that this technology offers a health benefit to mankind (for those that fit the technology). Like educating people to brush their teeth for oral health, this is for bio-mechanical health.
    This is about changing the mechanical efficiency of ambulation. Reducing daily wear and tear and extending our bio-mechanical health.
    "cannot flex to give accurate data..." How are orthotics supposed to give data?

    HD orthotics don't give the data, they modify the motion of pronation from heel contact to heel off by assisting the structure (machinery) and mirroring the mechanics. Loading and unloading stance phase-100% of contact to the ground.
    Definition of ME?--look it up in any of the thousands of text books of mechanical engineering. The human foot is simply a locomotor apparatus, subject to the same stresses and strains of any functional mechanical operation. You just have to think a little out of the box and see that fitting a Rx foot orthotic is like fitting Rx glasses. Then, bio-mechanical function can be more accurately interpreted.
    Podiatry should lead the way.
     
  10. efuller

    efuller MVP

    You need to prove that you know what you are talking about. I asked the question to see if you knew what you are talking about.

    My original question was

    How are you defining and measuring mechanical efficiency?


    Someone who knew what mechanical efficiency was would have understood the question and come up with an explanation of how you measured it. Mechanical efficiency is the ratio of energy in to energy out. If you wanted to measure the mechanical efficiency of an electric motor you would look at the electrical energy put into the motor and compare that to the mechanical work the motor does. This method obviously doesn't work for the foot because you can't measure electrical energy put in. Someone who knew what mechanical efficiency is would have immediately understood the validity of the question. A salesman who claimed an increase in mechanical efficiency for their product without even knowing what mechanical efficiency is.....

    Tissue efficiency is something you just made up. You need to define these terms for yourself so that you can use them accurately.

    You should go back and look at my replies in that thread where you posted the scans. After I pointed out your error in the placement of the sesnor, you did not argue the point.
     
  11. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

     
  12. efuller

    efuller MVP

    I'm still waiting for your attempt to explain what I don't understand. Mentioning the number of sensors in a force plate is irrelevant to the concept of measuring the effects of the orthotics on the foot. My criticism was that the force plate measured the force the orthotic applied to the ground and not the force applied to the foot. In the picture you posted, you could plainly see the high pressure point from the anterior edge of the orthotic on the force plate. That is the wrong place for the sensor to be if you wanted to measure the effects of the orthotic on the foot. The sensor should be between the foot and the orthotic. Just because you measure accurately, doesn't mean that you have measured the correct variable.

    Did you just make up the term lever arm efficiency? What data are you using to make that claim?



    You might want to recheck your formula for mechanical efficiency. Both of your variables refer to output. Efficiency is the ratio output divided by input. For the jack screw the there is loss of force in because of friction in the screw.

    Asking the question again: What is your definition of mechanical efficiency in your claim that your orthosis improves mechanical efficiency? There are different definitions of mechanical efficiency. Don't answer that question with the number of sensors in the force plate that you used. So far, you have showed us that you don't know what you are talking about.
     
  13. timberh

    timberh Member

    I have to say that I did try these fluid filled insoles on a patient with plantar fasciitis. We agreed to try them as an off the shelf method of orthosis and I have always thought that fluid filled soles could possible provide an anti pronatory moment especially to the stj. The patient was really happy with them, but then again this was in conjunction with taping and stretching and strengthening, so who knows!
    With regards to the clinical model of foot function it makes sense to me that there is a more or less ideal way in which the foot should function. It also makes sense that recognising which factors are affecting ideal gait and pathology that can result is the first part of knowing how to treat the foot.
    If you don't know what is causing a problem then how can you treat it?
    I am always happy to change my approach though so any thoughts on how i can improve my approach would be received gratefully!
    Thanks all!
     
  14. efuller

    efuller MVP

    The first thing to improve your approach is to know whether or not something can change a pronation moment. A pronation moment from ground reaction force occurs when the center of pressure of ground reaction force is lateral to the sub talar joint axis. When you think about this you just don't have to guess whether or not a fluid filled bag will shift the center of pressure more medially. A solid varus heel wedge should decrease pronation moment better than something less firm or something that could change its shape into a valgus wedge.

    It is debatable whether knowing what the ideal is, is useful for treating the non ideal. First off, how do you decide what the ideal is? Is the ideal for one foot the same for a differently shaped foot. I think a better way is to examine what is wrong with a particular foot and figure out how to change the environment of that foot to make it work better. This is the tissue stress approach. You figure out which anatomical structure is injured and then you design a treatment to reduce stress on that structure. With this approach, you don't have to choose an ideal. Feet don't hurt because they are not ideal, they hurt because too much load is placed on a particular structure. I agree that if you don't know what is causing the problem, you will have a difficult time figuring out how to treat it.
     
  15. timberh

    timberh Member

    Thanks for the speedy reply. I have printed off your tissue stress paper and begun looking through it. Are there any courses on this stuff as i would welcome a move away from absolutes and measurements and into a more healing approach.
    Many thanks! (I am in UK BTW)
     
  16. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    You couldn't be more wrong about this. If you have to guess whether a fluid filled bag will shift the COP, then you are unfamiliar with the basic physics of fluid displacement--fluid moves to the area of least resistance and greatest need. This is the major difference between theory and science.

    What basis do you say that a solid wedge will do it better? The fact it is solid to me, means that it disrupts and interferes with the transference of motion and momentum. That said, anything less firm is probably better than a solid wedge for dynamic motion. A solid wedge also doesn't address all 3 planes of motion. This is part of the problem with all those measurements you make with an unscientific technology (that's why you're always guessing) . When you are working with principles of physics as a technology for mechanical function and efficiency, the causative problem in most cases are irrelevant. It's a matter of balancing the foot. Dynamically loading and unloading of stance. There's no guessing involved, but rather scientific calibration of functional mechanics
     
  17. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    was this a prescription or generic gel filled orthosis?
     
  18. efuller

    efuller MVP

    Dennis, fluid flows from area of high pressure to lower pressure, not to area of greatest need.
     
  19. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Eric

    The area of low pressure is the area of greatest need.
     
  20. efuller

    efuller MVP

    More wishful thinking from a salesman. I've worn your devices and one worst experiences wearing them was when I was trying to push something. My foot was planted and my weight was on the lateral side of my foot. I was pushing the object in the direction of the other foot. The fluid moved to the under side of the medial part of the foot which would tend to supinate the foot. However, with that activity, ground reaction force is tending to supinate the foot. It felt really unstable. In any sport where you need lateral movement, this problem would happen. The device was putting fluid exactlly where it was not needed. Yes, in static stance the fluid will move toward areas of low pressure distributing the pressure more evenly. Pressure reduction was the only concern the bag of fluid might be good enough for what you need. If you want to live in the real world it is not.
     
  21. These fluid-filled insoles have a liquid inside of them that magically "knows" where to flow against all principles of physics...and yes, that fluid contained with Dennis Kiper's insoles is none other than Snake Oil!
     

    Attached Files:

  22. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Although I myself have played tennis with them (I did find them slightly unstable at moments) and others have told me they also have played tennis and basketball with them without instability (maybe thewy just didn't experience enough instability to notice), I do not recommend for lateral motion sports. You can even walk on a sloped surface (as I have) as long as you don't turn lateral to the slope,
    That said, your story is an Aesops fable. As soon as you step back down onto a flat surface, fluid displacement would have flowed back to an equilibrium state of stability (at midstance)--
    Some orthotics are designed for specific purposes Eric. Maybe you've never made an orthotic for a specific purpose eg cycling,soccer,tennis etc. If you need an orthotic to push something with your foot, then the SDO might not be for you. Having a bad experience when your learning something new, what a sad thing. In the real world the SDO is designed for walking and running-straight ahead. And it does more than just reduce and distribute pressure. It improves the mechanical efficiency of the functional mechanics this in turn improves lever arm efficiency which improves tissue efficiency --thats how it reverses tissue stress. I realize you don't have any experience reading accurate scans, but look at the one I posted again and tell me what you don't see.
    Look at some of the running blogs and forums and lets see how many people speak poorly of traditional orthotics. The numbers of dissatisfied patients and runners are staggering.
    Every clinical test ever done comparing your type with OTC supports are embarrassing when you compare the price for a generic product and then having equal results. Your theories that you're pushing and selling is the real snake oil! BTW remember Dr Adolph Schmidt? He referred to orthotics (your type) as "magic shovels", so calling the SDO "a bag of fluid" isn't wrong, but like your shovels, they can't be used in a stable or barn for shoveling you know what.
     
  23. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Kevin,
    fluid flows by displacement under pressure and force--ther is no magic about it. If you want to sell theories, why don't you write another theory "stress-less theory" you can entitle the book (to sell) as a "Compendium of Podiatric Biomechanical Conjecture"
     
  24. Stanley

    Stanley Well-Known Member

    Dennis, if a person has a long leg that pronates to compensate, what will your insoles do? Will they adjust to the pronation or will they lift the short side?
     
  25. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Thank you for a legitimate and reasonable question. Whether the limb length is functional or anatomical, the technology is hydro-dynamic. Each foot is fit at midstance ( In most all cases there is a slight difference in volume between L/R) At heel contact loading begins, fluid is displaced anteriorily and begins filling under the tarsus as the forefoot begins loading to the floor. STJ and MTJ pronation decelerates continuously until midstance when the fluid reaches its maximum containment, hydro-static pressure self posts the MTJ and reaches an equilibrium state. Pronation is halted and overpronation is contained and minimized so that the MTJ and POM are at optimal position. In this manner, the STJ is secondarily and simultaneously also at optimal position (traditionally known as neutral). At heel off and beginning of supination of the rearfoot and the forward progression of the rearfoot as it pivots onto the metatarsal heads, coupled with the weight bearing and pronatory forces of the MTJ complex, now displaces fluid back to the rearfoot (in preparation of the next cycle), prolonging momentarily the equilibrium state of stability of stance.
    Therefore, to answer your question, compensation is based on the individual volume of the Rx. It has no bearing on lift.
     
  26. Stanley

    Stanley Well-Known Member

    Since there is no bearing on lift, and since the STJ and MTJ are not allowed to compensate, then this will cause pathology at the hip, back or knee level.
     
  27. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    So, you're assuming that lift and compensation would not cause pathology as you list?
     
  28. Stanley

    Stanley Well-Known Member

    If you have a lift, you don't need compensation. If you have no compensation in the STJ and MTJ, you need a lift.
    You already said there is no bearing on lift and the STJ is in neutral.
     
  29. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Your responses are based on theory and conjecture (as all of you have). That's not how it works hydro-dynamically, with a scientifically calibrated orthosis, biomechanical response is predictable. Conditions and pathologies like LL discrepancy and functional ll discrepancy and lift is best treated with an orthosis that functions precisely. Then you know what to expect. If you're satisfied with a technology that is antiquated in modern medicine, yet still necessary for rearfoot and anomolous conditions and equally effective as a civilian can make, then have at it.
    I'm glad I've had a chance to get this information onto the internet.
     
  30. Stanley

    Stanley Well-Known Member

    Since you are an expert on the subject of Leg Length discrepancies, could you tell me what you have written on the subject?
    I have been dealing with this for over 30 years. Here is the study that I was the lead author on:

    J Am Podiatr Med Assoc. 1985 Jul;75(7):349-54.
    A preliminary study on asymmetrical forces at the foot to ground interphase.
    Beekman S, Louis H, Rosich JM, Coppola N.
     
  31. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

     
  32. Stanley

    Stanley Well-Known Member

    I don't have any reprints, they were sent out many years ago. You will have to call a library at a Podiatric Medicine college.
     
  33. drhunt1

    drhunt1 Well-Known Member

    Stanley-is that your criteria for credibility...written articles? Perhaps you should address Dr's Kirby and Fuller, then. They have LOTS of articles/books written that are misinformation, on a number of topics.
     
  34. Stanley

    Stanley Well-Known Member

    Thank you for your interest. Actually, it was a study, not an article. There were piezoelectric crystals to measure pressure on the heels with different interventions. I don't see how data can be misinformation. The real point was that I have been dealing with Leg length differences for many, many years. The article just shows how long I have been involved with it.
     
  35. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    I still haven't read your article, from the title of asymmetrical forces and your reference to lld I assumed (incorrectly) that you had recognized the relationship of asymmetrical ROM (producing asymmetrical forces) resulting commonly (almost universally) in functional lld
     
  36. Stanley

    Stanley Well-Known Member

    Read the article first. It does recognize asymmetries due to asymmetrical pronation and Iliosacral dysfunction. Remember that article was written over 30 years ago, and there are many more ways to look at it.
     
  37. efuller

    efuller MVP

    Matt, you never said what we got wrong. You just said you didn't like the pictures. If you are going to criticize, at least say what misinformation you perceived in the pictures.
     
  38. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    I would disagree with your term of IS dysfunction. To me this is normal compensation of ileac rotation secondary to asymmetrical rom/pronation.
     
  39. Stanley

    Stanley Well-Known Member

    Iliosacral dysfunction can be be caused by many things that are not pronation. The result can be pronation as a compensation for the functional leg length.
    On the other hand pronation can cause the iliosacral dysfunction.
    To determine which it is is part of the study.
     
  40. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    of course


    I disagree with this. In my opinion it isn't pronation that compensates, it's the as/pi ileum that compensates for the asymmetry in pron. In my experience, I found this in chidren as early as 2 yo. If your reference to dysfunction is as a result of this asymmetry, then I agree.
     
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