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Government Run Healthcare- Good or Evil

Discussion in 'General Issues and Discussion Forum' started by drsarbes, Aug 26, 2009.

  1. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member


    There are, according to the Financial Times, 35 million people applying for food stamps in the USA.
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e340890c-998b-11de-ab8c-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1

    And you are saying that the solution is to put money they dont have in to a savings account for future medical needs.
    Because you dont trust your goverment to spend your taxes wisely (not that taxes cover any of this expenditure -its all borrowed money)

    The NHS (state funded healthcare in the UK) is nowhere near perfect but it was principally set up because people on a low income could not get healthcare because of the cost. I.E. The "free market" had priced them out. So the "good" in a state funded system is that it guarantees a minimum level of care for all.

    The evil? "competition" is not a given in medicine as the suppliers have a monopoly on the "knowledge" - can I practice in the US? No - I dont have the right degree. The state-funded system sets up a new super-monopoly and you know the outcome. The state will set your salary.
     
  2. You bet your sweet bippy.:D
     
  3. Gibby

    Gibby Active Member

    this will continue to be a popular thread-
    when the rest of the world senses the finest in the world is in trouble, they will all have something to say-

    do not worry-
    the finest physicians and surgeons in the world are alive and well-
    Presidents will come and go. The free market system will continue to produce medical, surgical, and pharmaceutical advancements.
    The new "national healthcare plan" will not pass. Too many Americans are now actually paying attention. No worries.
     
  4. jpurdydpm

    jpurdydpm Active Member

    The U.S. does take pride in multiculturalizm. The problem is not legally documented non-citizens that are here for short stays, it is with the illegal aliens that are here . . . .well . . .. illegally. We should not be prideful if we continue to turn our backs on the illegal immigration policies and illigitimize those that have gone through the immigration process legally.

    Do you have a source for what funds healthcare in the U.S.? I can't really make out what your stance is on illegal immigrants but let me provide some statistics for others. Here is an incomplete list of taxes we pay in the U.S.

    Accounts Receivable Tax
    Building Permit Tax
    CDL License Tax
    Cigarette, Alcohol and food Tax
    Corporate Income Tax
    Dog License Tax
    Federal Income Tax
    Federal Unemployment Tax
    Fishing License Tax
    Food License Tax
    Fuel Perm it Tax
    Hunting License Tax
    Inheritance Tax
    Inventory Tax
    Luxury Tax,
    Capital Gains Tax
    Marriage License Tax,
    Medicare Tax,
    Property Tax,
    Real Estate Tax,
    Service charge taxes,
    Payroll Tax
    Road Usage Tax (Truckers),
    Sales Taxes,
    Recreational Vehicle Tax,
    School Tax,
    State Income Tax,
    City Income Tax
    County Income Tax
    City property Tax
    County Property Tax
    State Unemployment Tax (SUTA),
    Telephone Federal Excise Tax,
    Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax,
    Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Tax,
    Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax,
    Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax,
    Telephone State and Local Tax,
    Telephone Usage Charge Tax,
    Utility Tax,
    Vehicle License Registration Tax,
    Vehicle Sales Tax,
    Watercraft Registration Tax,
    Well Permit Tax,
    Workers Compensation Tax.


    Check the CDC and see that foreign born citizens have a nine times higher incidence of TB among other diseases. Tuberculosis resurgence in the U.S. has actually been linked to this immigration pattern. Illegal immigrants do not get checked for this disease as is required prior to all green cards awarded. [http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol8no7/01-0482.htm]

    We’re talking 11.4 million illegal immigrants. Estimates are actually as high as 20 million [http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0516/p01s02-ussc.html]. Do you seriously think this has a nominal impact on our health system and health state in the U.S.? Do you think this does not skew our per capita numbers on health care spending?

    Health care and public safety related to illegal immigration, and not including education, costs $1 billion annually. [http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf] Other costs including violent crime, theft, MVA accidents causing a rise in insurance premiums. Other countries do not deal with illegal immigration of U.S. proportion. Canada is estimated to have a maximum of 120,000 illegal immigrants.

    Show me the stats and sources. Opinion is meaningless without facts.
     
  5. jpurdydpm

    jpurdydpm Active Member



    Walk up to any line for food stamps, unemployment or any other government entitlement office here in the U.S. This is a fact. You will see people standing in line talking on cell phones that are better then mine. They will be smoking $5 a pack cigarettes and then drive away in cars that have $2,000 worth of accesories. It is a fact that we have THE wealthiest poor in the world. Where there are entitlemens, there are people willing to take them and then demand more. Take them away and guess what? Those people start shoping smarter instead of eating fast food. They go to work and get that job that they used to consider "beneath them." They may ever decide to work MORE than 40 hours a week to get more money. People become more self reliant rather than hand-out reliant.

    Out of an available workforce of 232 million people, only 117 million pay taxes. [ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ForeignLabor/lfcompendiumt01.txt] I have no idea what your point of funding health care with borrowed money is.

    People that can put money into health savings accounts would no longer have to "take" from the government, nor should they have to put in. But, currently, I put into the system withholdings for medicare and social security for all my employees. These are monies that they will see in the future even after they no longer work for me. I also pay for their currente health care and into their retirement accounts on top of that. Is that fair? I provide jobs for the country and get penalized for it. But those poor people using food stamps as you would like to think, just have no opportunity or resources available to them since there are NO jobs. Right. All I see are signs for applications on business throught the country when I travel. There are many that are healthy but socially unemployable through no falt other than their own.

    There is a lot more to fix in this country than just health care. When we start to fix the entitlement mentality and get the government to stop producing barriers to doing business and give back more of what we earn, then there will be a lot of people with a lot more money in their pocket to be able to "afford" health care. Then again, if they don't consider their health important, they won't get it like many do now.

    At least 92% of our population is not "priced out" of the health care market. A large majority of that 8% are because they DON'T WORK. They found the entitlement path perfectly fine. A large percentage of our population chose to live frivously, not budget, and don't consider their health importatnt until they are sick. They do have the latest PS3 game console and flat screen TV's though. I'm a doctor and I don't have near the amount of recreational vehicles and boats and fun jumps my neighbor living in an $80,000 house has. We have a lot to learn in this country and need to stop pointing fingers at everyone else when we get in financial trouble and start looking in the morror.
     
  6. efuller

    efuller MVP

    In the above you claim that I don't understand health savings accounts. Health savings accounts are separate from insurance. They don't have to be used simultaneously. (Unless there is a government mandate.) In fact it's probably in someone's best economic interest to save when they are young and healthy and not buy insurance.

    But, let's look at some real world economics. Here in California the median Household income is $60,000. An insurance policy, for a family of four, with a $5000 deductible costs $10,000 a year. Less taxes that leaves $45,000 a year to live off and add to a savings account. For a significant portion of the population it will not be possible to live and save. HSA works if you are wealthy.


    In response to your statement that Medicare is mandatory you wrote.
    No, saying that it is mandatory sounds silly. Yes, I agree you will have a hard time making money if you don't accept patients covered by Medicare. You cannot truthfully say that is mandatory. Let's keep the debate accurate.

    In looking through your posts about Medicare I found:

    Regardless, I think Medicare is one of the biggest scams perpetrated on the American public next to social security and then in turn on doctors. Medicare is insolvent and there is no argument about that. It is a bloated bureaucratic mess. As an employer, why am I paying part of an employee's Medicare withholdings as well as their current medical coverage? ​


    Insolvent
    1.
    a. Unable to meet debts or discharge liabilities; bankrupt.
    b. Insufficient to meet all debts, as an estate or fund.
    2. Of or relating to bankrupt persons or entities.

    So, Medicare is not insolvent. It will become insolvent if nothing changes. Is this the scam that you are talking about? So, soon we will either have to increase revenue or cut services. Conservatives, in attempt to win the debate, have been crying that liberals want to cut benefits. Conservatives want entitlements??? Until we can have an honest discussion about the future these problems will never be addressed. There should be a debate and then a vote on whether people want to cut services or raise taxes. We do, after all live in a democracy.


    As a practitioner, I am now subject to almost being required to accepting Medicare since it has been required and now used by those over 65. I am now subject to governmental requirement and paperwork, extensive and burdensome auditing, and the threat of substantial cuts in reimbursements every year. ​



    I don't accept this as being much different than private payers. You have to properly chart a patient visit for legal reasons regardless of who pays for it. I concede the point about bounty hunters for fraud. That should either be present in all government contracts or none. How would you limit fraud in the system?



    Medicare is easy to deal with? Here is a direct quote from a study performed by the United States General Accounting Office (GAO) concerning Medicare. “Customer service representatives rarely provided appropriate answers to questions, answering only 15 percent of our test calls completely and accurately. In addition, only 20% of the carrier Web sites we reviewed contained all of the information required by CMS.” ​


    I concede this point. I don't see where insurance companies are better. In fact the Medicare intermediaries that administer Medicare are insurance companies. They just have a 2-3% overhead as compared to for profit insurance that has between 17 and 25% overhead.

    You mention that we should not use anecdotes to bolster our arguments. What statistics do you have that no one falls through the cracks when a company folds. You don't know how much I know about insurance and economics. It makes for a persuasive argument to say that your opponent doesn't know anything,when you are right. My goal here is not to win an argument, but to establish a logical argument based on facts.


    You stated that "The general public is naive. " in regards to knowing how much money is withheld from their paychecks for taxes. I'll bet more people understand withholding than understand how to compare insurance plans. People have no idea how much coverage they will need. They cannot predict the future. Since you know so much about economics you should know that you cannot have a functioning market with imperfect information.

    I know it is a widely held belief that the reason for our greatness is free market capitalism. I understand the concept, I just don't blindly accept it. Why do you believe this? Is it the belief that the only thing that motivates someone is monetary gain? I've read your articles in Podiatry Management magazine. Did you try your hardest to write a good article even though the reimbursement for the article was way below your normal hourly rate? Many contribute to this forum to further podiatry without any chance of gain from it.



    Your analysis is faulty. There is competition between insurance companies, but there is not free competition between doctors when the insurance company panels limit doctors. You misunderstand me. I wasn't complaining about it. I was merely using it as an example to point out the fallacy of your argument. I chose to practice in the town I grew up in knowing that I would be disadvantaged by the insurance panel.
    ____


    John wrote:
    I meant to say that Medicare, by taking 45 million people away from private insurance, has taken away competition from private industry. There is a reason there is a saying "healthy competition."

    I wrote back that I did not understand how this reduce competition. Then Jon replied:


    I still think you are wrong here. Medicare removes the most expensive to ensure from the market. This should reduce the cost of private insurance more than having everyone covered by private insurance. I showed this to my wife who has a masters in economics and she did not see how removing the most expensive to insure reduces competition for those remaining.

    I'd agree that Medicare is government run monopoly. The army is a government run monopoly. For profit militias, now that's a scary thought.

    How would you slow fraud? I'll concede that bounty hunters for fraud might be excessive.

    I commented on two of those above. Well, those student loans are just another entitlement that your taxes go for. I'd rather those be left in place for practioners who work in underserved areas.

    You have stated opinions as fact as well. Most of your criticisms of Medicare apply equally well to insurance companies. The question is would rather have these decisions being made by someone who profits from their decisions or from someone who has to answer to an elected official? What is better for the country as a whole.

    It is indeed a great debate. Remember to attack the idea and not the person.

    Best regards,

    Eric
     
  7. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    I post this in good faith for information, not for supporting it or not:

     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  8. markjohconley

    markjohconley Well-Known Member

    Dr Purdy, just because someone is to the 'left' of you doesn't necessarily mean they are 'leftist', could be you belong to the radical ratbag right, so everyone is on your left!
    Just to confirm my impressions do you listen to any of the following 'ratbags';
    Sean Hannity
    Glenn Beck
    Lou Dobbs
    Rush Limbaugh
    Bill "falafel roll' O'Reilly

    You're not a 'birther' by any chance? and your favourite actors are charlton heston and jon voigt, right?,
    Yep I believe in a mix of socialist and capitalist economic policies and the Nazi's were totalitarian capitalists and your President was elected democratically!
     
  9. C Bain

    C Bain Active Member

    Hi All,

    As one who is alive today because The English National Health Service, (NHS.), is in place in England and I would not be able to afford the US. version. I would say with tongue in cheek that it can be a life saver on the National Insurance stamp/tax!

    We appear to have a health service which has a mind of it's own? You have to be careful not to upset it or they may loose you in the miles and miles of new corridor type hospitals.

    There might in the future be a slight risk for at present they only hatchem! If certain parts of society get their way they will not only hatchem but dispatchem as well!

    Assisted suicide it is called/and abortion sometimes, but not to worry it will certainly relieve the poverty and allow Government to get the relatives to spend spend spend their way out of it!

    But there is a problem seemly if a doctor or nurse offers a patient prayer of hope to the LORD they can get the sack! The NHS. is an organism of secular socialism so the NHS. must be set up for the common good!

    Well that has got us to the evil!

    Evil: Is according to my dictionary, bad: wicked - harm:sin!

    I find it difficult to attach this definition to a social organism like the NHS.! But I shall try!

    The only problem with a massive animal like the NHS. is that it has people in it? They bring with them the troubles and ills of the society they live in! Are we surprised that sometimes something can go array!

    But in the main despite themselves they actually heal people of their ills!

    Yours with the foot in it,

    Colin.

    PS. Just a little something to light somebodies fire!
     
  10. drsarbes

    drsarbes Well-Known Member

    """""Hows that "capitalism" thing working in Detroit??????????""""""

    EXACTLY!!!!!

    When Government regulations and government mandated entitlements through labor unions interfere with the free market/price and demand foundation of capitalism then all hell breaks loose.
    If Government would just keep their collective fingers out of private enterprise........

    As far as young healthy individuals not paying into the "pool" - well this is not accurate. Even if a young healthy individuals in the US elects not to purchase private insurance, he or she is still PAYING INTO medicare and social security. -
    AND
    we really need to bring Social Security into this debate since there are SO MANY on disability receiving quite a lot of money (more than SS retirement amounts) for disabilities ranging from obesity to chronic back pain to depression to bipolar condition on and on......which answers the long term care question asked several postings ago.

    And AlanK - you make it sound as though we have half our work force without insurance. You know that is just not true. These numbers of uninsured americans has been so bloated out of a need for motivation for healthcare reform that it's hard to know what's true anymore. The guy that changes my oil has very good insurance (he's a patient of mine) as well as several wait staff that I know personally, so please let's keep the bleeding hearts out of the equation.

    Steve
     
  11. jpurdydpm

    jpurdydpm Active Member

    Eric,

    I'm not sure how this quote from a quote thing will work but let's try it. Here is the big picture. As long as the government is going to tax and withhold us into poverty, you are correct, it will be very difficult to afford the best health care possible. If working families would not be taxed as heavily as they are, and didn't have to pay into social security and Medicare, they would have more than sufficient funds to pay for health coverage and into retirement accounts.

    Furthermore, exactly who said that that particular family of which you speak "had" to birth 4 kids? Who said that family "has" to live in California? What makes you think that the median income family who can't seem to make ends meet at 60K a year does not have the opportunity to make more in the upcoming years or make other positive changes?

    If this debate would take on more meaningful tracks like how to decrease medical insurance costs (the number one way would be eliminating defensive medicine without a close second), and how to give back the working class more of what they make by reducing government intrusion, then we wouldn't have to talk about how unaffordable medical coverage is. The U.S. government is becoming a bullying monster that takes most of what you earn and puts up barriers to success and independence, then gins up controversy about how we need governmental help because people "just can't make it on their own."

    This debate is accurate. You would just like to make a drive by statement and then run without analysis of it. I just pointed out that the government creates barriers that create ties and limit options. Of course I don't have to accept it but I can actually be heavily fined and not "allowed" back in for two years if I don't do it correctly with a high paid attorney. Wow, what facilitators our government is. And, mark my words, it WILL become mandatory if we let them.


    See my statement above. We are talking about the wrong thing. Change does not need to happen to a good system operating within a bad one.


    Like I said, fraud will occur in any system. There has to be equity. If they are allowed to audit my charts back three or more years and recoup where they find error, then I too should be able to audit my charts back the same amount of time and recoup my errors in billing to offset theirs.


    I keep hearing that quote of 3% yet anyone I challenge who brings it up can never give me the source. That's because it is simply not true. I will tell you exactly why if you provide me with the source. If I could replace Medicare with any one of my top ten payors and would do it gladly tomorrow, then why would I think Medicare is better?



    In what you said about opting out vs. non-par and HSA's it made is sound as if you didn't know the in's and out's so I will await your responses. When a company folds, if that person were receiving insurance benefits, they stay on COBRA until they find another job or obtain a policy on their own. Yep, sometimes life is tough, but the unwillingness of a population to place a priority on their health does not mean we have a broken system.


    I work with the general public and pay them through payroll. I get to hear about all the excitement of them receiving their tax rebate from having the government withhold as much of their money as possible throughout the year. They don't invest in our matching 401-K program no matter how much prompting. In other words, giving the government a tax free loan. I don't have a way to check this, but I believe that vast majority of our population is fiscally irresponsible and frivolous with their money, don't budget or prioritize and therefore disregard the well being of their future and their family's future.

    I certainly believe in the concept of the government providing "some" regulation in needed areas but not to the point it has reached. I certainly don't believe for one minute in values or message conveyed in Socialistic nations. If Capitalism and a restricted government got us to be the greatest nation on Earth, why are we doing away with that structure? It's not blindness, it's learning from history and present models in other countries. I look at statistics and facts and not necessarily someone from another country saying "Well, I like it here and our system is better than yours." Not saying you do that. And, I don't make a dime from any ventures I have with the boards on which I sit or from the articles I write. I'm not sure what you meant there.



    Ah, I see what you mean. If there is an entity that limits market competition then I guess those that like it will prosper and those that don't won't. That scenario creates market competition with their policy holders. If they limit the doctor pool and patients don't like it then they will go under. The public certainly has many other choices so there is no monopoly to which you speak.


    Medicare does not remove the most expensive insured. That's what most don't get. Removing the cost of government insurance by having these people pay into their own private insurance over their working careers is what removes them from the government dole. The government took that working persons' money their entire life, they better give it back. It's about control, not problem solving.


    Huh? The baring of arms and formation of militias are protected constitutional rights! The fact that you are afraid of our constitutional rights and not the government is scary. These rights were provided by our founding fathers so we could defend ourselves against a tyrannical government.

    Might be?

    Student loans are an entitlement? This is getting a little kooky. Let's see how many doctors this nation has without loans.

    That was my laugh for the day. The most corruption occurring in this country on a daily basis is within our government. Just watch the news. The answer without a doubt is YES, I want a for-profit corporation making decisions. If we as a group, be it doctors or the insured, don't like what a company is doing and it affects their bottom line, then I can guarantee you there will be no quicker change than in that company. Your trust of Washington is remarkable - given history.

    I mean no personal attack at all and hope you didn't take it as such.
    My best,
    Jon
     
  12. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    Well thats not strictly the case is it? Detroit motor companies have fallen behind for many years in their car designs particularly on fuel economy - still producing 5 litre engines to drive at 55 mph.

    A true free market would have allowed those industries to go to the wall and provide no safety net for those that lose their jobs.

    It was the same free market that built the collosal debt bubble that Lehmans was embroiled in. I dont know what word you would use to describe those that in vented sub-prime lending and the repackaging of poor quality debt into AAA quality bonds but I think the word corrupt is a good one. The problem was and still is that the debt bubble the free market produced was so collosal that the "correction" demanded by the rules of a free market would have crippled the banks and thus the wider economy. The free market had its head and truly screwed up.

    Basically mate, the baby-boomers wanted growth at all costs when they were trying to buy homes, build savings and retirement pots and so the laisse-faire free market rules suited them as a loose form of capitalism "worked". That is it worked for the middle and upper classes of the 1st world.

    But now the boomers are retiring and now the same free market laisse-faire approach is threatening their ability to pay for goods and services from their fixed retirement incomes. So they want to know that the gravy is gonna keep coming - now in the form of generous pensions, benefits and free healthcare. The free market is a goner.
     
  13. drsarbes

    drsarbes Well-Known Member

    "Well thats not strictly the case is it? Detroit motor companies have fallen behind for many years in their car designs particularly on fuel economy - still producing 5 litre engines to drive at 55 mph. "

    hahaha - those were the only ones SELLING!!!!!!!
    The cost / hr (including health coverage and pension payouts for retirees which in many cases was the same or more than what they were making when they were working) made it difficult to turn a profit.

    Those Escalades, Suburbans, V8 Corvettes and Hummers sold very well - don't think producing more NOVAS would have helped! I'm pretty sure GM outsold Toyota in recent years as far as pure number of units, but the profit per vehicle was much more for the Toyota due to less overhead (less per hour cost per worker).

    Also, the local and State Governments in Michigan LOVES to spend money they don't have and over regulate EVERYONE. Perhaps a resident of Michigan can enlighten us.
    When your State is not Business friendly and your entire economy is dependent on one sector, well, it's a bad situation.

    Growth is what it's all about. The pie needs to get bigger so your piece is bigger. That's the whole point.

    The US is full of risk taking hard working entrepreneurs, but sadly the self motivating spirit of the US businessman is being ripped right out of the economic spine.

    A healthy economy cures a lot of problems.

    Steve
     
  14. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    Selling for now, another "dreadful" Big Government intervention is an attempt to bring American cars in line with European models and stop needlessly wasting oil. Hummers for goodness sake!! :wacko:


    Dont worry I know arguing about capitalism with an American is a waste of time :rolleyes: but I enjoy it anyway :drinks.

    However I note that you didnt acknowledge my point on the effects of the free market on the development of the Credit Binge. The free market didnt work - private companies were not self regulating. They were corrupt, they hid their losses and finally the bastions of capitalism asked the Big Government to pick up the tab.

    Im not "against" capitalism - it clearly encourages business or at least short-term business thinking. It just that it riles me that its not acknowledged for what it is - a predatory economic system not based on need and equal labour but based on greed and power. It leads to excess for the few. We use words like "free market" and they become synonymous with "free world" but in actuality the form of capitalism we have is "thanks for your resources here's your McDonalds and a Coke". There's no growth mate, only transfer of wealth.

    BUT - back to the original question - .........what was it?????:drinks
     
  15. jpurdydpm

    jpurdydpm Active Member

    As long as we're changing whimsical anecdotes here's one. I recently returned from Toronto where there was a five week garbage strike. Their union was holding out because they wanted, and in addition to their paid sick and holiday pay, 18 days of vacation per year.

    There is also, and you don't have to believe me just look it up, a panhandlers union. No commentary necessary, it speaks for itself.
     
  16. pgcarter

    pgcarter Well-Known Member

    Well gee, in little poor struggling Australia we have 20 days of paid annual leave and paid sick leave and have done for many years for all workers, I've employed a fair few over the years. We only have the population of L.A. but somehow manage to bumble along with out seeing the light and being just like the US. Don't know how we do it?
    regards Phill
     
  17. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    Thanks for bringing this to our attention, I'll notify Her Majesty and no doubt she will take action to make the colonials regret trying to rise above their proper station.

    18 days off work? Get back in that garbage - insolent upstart!!!
    :D
     
  18. jpurdydpm

    jpurdydpm Active Member

    Heath care is not a right in any sense of the word. At the very least I certainly don't see it listed as " . . the right to bear arms, free speech, and have an appropriate level of health care?" Just like you can not make someone care about themselves, you can not force compassion to "play a role" in any part of health care delivery. Health care is a business just like any other and to try to separate it is just nonsense. There is compassion that is inherent in health delivery, but you certainly can't have companies charge compassionately, or leave it up to physicians to bill compassionately. I do that every day when I give out free services as I see fit and not as mandated by the government.
     
  19. jpurdydpm

    jpurdydpm Active Member

     
  20. markjohconley

    markjohconley Well-Known Member

    And good luck to them! pgcarter was correct, in Australia, most awards, won by union activity, do have 20 recreation leave, ~12 public holidays, and 10 fullypaid sick leave, with both rec and sick leave accruable.
    I read there's ~ 200,000 workers in the US of A tied to contracts/awards where there are no recreation leave allowances at all.
     
  21. efuller

    efuller MVP

    Jon, That was not a "particular" family. It is interesting that in trying to counter my point you go from the general to the particular. The problem is that a significant portion of the population cannot afford good health insurance. Just having one family increase its income does not solve that problem. Do you have any compassion for the person who is working and has health insurance, becomes sick and cant work, and then loses heath insurance. The "free market" path after that is bankruptcy. Is your view on this: "well that's tough."

    I'm not sure what your point is when you said, "Who said that family "has" to live in California?" Again, you have changed half the population to the individual. If this one family wins the lottery it deserves to live in California and a large portion of the rest of the people don't? Is everyone supposed to strive to be above average?

    Regards,

    Eric
     
  22. markjohconley

    markjohconley Well-Known Member

    From a 2008 study where the ranking of 19 industrialized nations by how well their health systems intervene to stop preventable deaths. The US is now at number 19, below France, yep good ol' France!.
    The US has fallen four places in the past decade, so things are getting worse in this regard.

    1. France (64.8 preventable death per 100,000 persons)
    2. Japan (71.2)
    3. Australia (71.3)
    4. Spain
    5. Italy
    6. Canada
    7. Norway
    8. Netherlands
    9. Sweden
    10. Greece
    11. Austria
    12. Germany
    13. Finland
    14. New Zealand
    15. Denmark
    16. Britain
    17. Ireland
    18. Portugal
    19. United States (109.7 preventable deaths per 100,000 persons)

    The researchers concluded that the lack of access to health insurance on the part of 47 million Americans contributed.

    And re. that rude "Joe Wilson", the one that shouts "Lie" to the truth, apparently over his entire congressional career, health professionals represent Wilson’s top industry contributors, donating a total of $244,196 to his campaign!
    This in contrast to the Joe Wilson that Cheney smeared, for telling the truth, and whose wife was outed by the low-life Dick.

    (most of above "cut and copied" from webpages)
     
  23. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    But you see Mark, you are wrong.

    Gibby says that you are wrong because health delivery in the good 'ol USA is better than anywhere else. Why? Because Gibby says so! Everything is wonderful in the USA, everybody obtains treatment free at the point of delivery to the highest possible standard whenever they need it. Alteration is an oxymoron, and far worse, may be the thin end of the wedge for that dreadful socialism!

    I think that you will find it difficult to discuss facts when the individuals who have deviated from the OP have such a polarised point of view. Personally, I will spend my time trying to improve the admittedly flawed system in the U.K. or perhaps I could move to Aussie, even though you can't play cricket. The Japanese language is too difficult to learn and to live in France is unthinkable!

    All the best

    Bill
     
  24. drsarbes

    drsarbes Well-Known Member

    "The researchers concluded that the lack of access to health insurance on the part of 47 million Americans contributed."
    47 million!
    What a incredibly inaccurate number!!!!!!

    Joe Wilson! He was right!
    No one seemed to complain when Pres. Bush was booed several times by those sensitive liberals during his 2005 address to congress!!!!!! BOOED! God forbid someone is disrespectful to the "Anointed One" (BTW: He was lying!)

    Stopping preventable deaths? What is that exactly, how is it measured, by whom and who paid for the study. Apparently it didn't include abortions.

    France? Don't get me started!!!!!!!!!!! haha
    Steve
     
  25. markjohconley

    markjohconley Well-Known Member

    You're right Steve, I looked again at the reference, the authors were from the London School of Hygeine and Tropical Medicine and the article was published in the "Health Affairs: The Policy Journal of the Health Sphere 2008, 27,58-71", obviously a socialist, nazi, radical loony left organisation and journal. Apparently they claim they got the 47 million of US gov't estimates.
    No, I'm going to have to disagree. Joe was calling Obama a liar implicitly claiming Obama's plan will cover illegal immigrants. By my readings it definitely will not.

    Forgot that one Steve. Had to look that one up. The Bush social security statement which apparently differed to what his Social Security board of trustees had claimed.
    And yep there is a history of booing / heckling, how about the Clinton 'state of the union' addresses in 93, 95, 97, and 98.

    Thought that one would tickle ya, mark
     
  26. markjohconley

    markjohconley Well-Known Member

    You're right again Steve, it was 46.3 million (US Census Bureau)
     
  27. Mark:

    There you go again, using facts again.....when will you ever learn how to argue with a Yankee!!:rolleyes:
     
  28. From The Times
     

    Attached Files:

  29. drsarbes

    drsarbes Well-Known Member

    "London School of Hygeine and Tropical Medicine....."

    I LOVE starting my week with humor!!!!!

    There are actually (by many studies by NON partisan groups, sorry not the London school of Hygeine!!!!) about 16 million American citizens who want and cannot afford health insurance or who cannot acquire it due to Medical conditions. Of course laws governing these citizens vary from state to state so the % is higher in some states and lower in others.

    This number does not include illegals or US Citizens making more than $17,500/year who, for one reason or other, choose not to purchase insurance.

    That amounts to about 5% of the population. At around $3,500-/ years to insure each one of these 16 million (assuming you want to) the price tag would be around 58 billion...........the Health Care bill would cost 1,400 BILLION! FOURTEEN THOUSAND BILLION!!!!! (that's 1.4 trillion!!!!!!!)

    Hmmmmmmmmm

    Only those actually paying taxes here in the US and who will be footing this bill need to respond.

    Steve
     
  30. drsarbes

    drsarbes Well-Known Member

    One more thing:

    JUST FOR THE RECORD-
    Did a bit of research on this 46 million number that seems to be used by those pushing health care reform.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "In fact, the latest available government statistics on the number of uninsured in America comes from the Census Bureau’s “Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007

    The study actually shows that there are 35.920 uninsured living in the US. The census bureau DOES NOT ask whether those responding to the census are legal citizens.

    This report goes on to state that they estimate 9.7 million non citizens living in the US illegally without health insurance.

    That brings us down to 26.22 million CITIZENS who, for whatever the reason, have no health insurance."

    SO, subtract those that for whatever the reason can afford it but don't want to pay for it............
     
  31. pgcarter

    pgcarter Well-Known Member

    It is just as easy to forget that people are entitled to make very poor choices for themselves as it is to forget that people are entitled to their own opinion on any issue, no matter how wrong, poorly informed, prejudiced, ethnocentric or just plain self centered they may be.......
    regards Phill Carter
     
  32. markjohconley

    markjohconley Well-Known Member

    Steve , i may be misreading you, I looked up the relevant table, Table 7, p21 of the 2008 report. yep there's 9.511 million in the 'Foreign born; Not a Citizen; Uninsured". But how do you get 26.2 million from (46.3 million minus 9.5 million).
    And isn't the term "illegal aliens", a despicable incompassionate term!
     
  33. drsarbes

    drsarbes Well-Known Member

    35.9 - 9.70

    People are apparently ADDING these two figures when the 35.9 already includes illegals.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You know, this really wasn't about OUR health care - I was asking what those living in a single payor or Government run or financed system thought of it.

    For instance - I was playing racquetball last night and ruptured my Achilles. (not good)
    It was 6:50PM when it happened.

    By 8:45PM I had been taken to the ER (15 minute ride), registered, examined, diagnosed and a cast applied and was gone. Nice.

    Regardless of my insurance (or even if I didn't have any) this would have turned out the same.
    How does this care compare to what you might expect in the UK?

    Steve
     
  34. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Hi Steve

    Thanks for bringing the thread back to the OP.

    Firstly, I must point out that Mark hails from Australia. That is to say, if you were able to drive a hole through the earth from Meriden (the centre of England, a few miles from my home), you would reach Australia which is a good deal more than a couple of miles away, hence the British expression for Aus, 'down under'. It is a nice place, very big, filled with strange people who take great delight in drinking fizzy beer and beating England at cricket (sometimes). They also tend to react in a very interesting way when accused of being British. Basically, the accuser tends to lie down and his nose starts bleeding.

    Sorry about the T.A. - happens to all of us as we get older so I'm told. I shall make a note to avoid sport!

    As far as the U.K. is concerned, much would depend on how busy the service was; however, the treatment would be very similar. The ambulance trip would be covered by the NHS, so there would be no hidden charge for that. You would be taken to A & E (Accident & Emergency), and since the case was simple, diagnosed. Normally you would be treated in A & E but if there was some concern over the injury you would be seen by an orthopaedic registrar. The main problem we find is 'time wasters' who may arrive with simple cuts, stings and other complaints which should not be in a hospital anyway, to drunks who fall down and injure themselves and druggies overdosing. The latter two problems feature heavily in the 'inner city' hospitals. If the department is particularly busy you may be kept hanging around for some time, although nurse triaging systems arfe being put in place.

    So you pays your money and takes your choice, but as I indicated earlier, our system is far from perfect and probably would not work in the much more populous USA which is broken into the individual states anyway. Because of my ignorance of the way the US conducts it's health service, I cannot really comment, but I rather suspect that it is not the perfect situation claimed by Gibby and others. Certainly, independent assessments seem to place the USA relatively low in tables of well being, and as I mentioned previously, if the system is perfect then I imagine that there would be no requirement to consider change.

    Interesting to gain some insight anyway.

    All the best

    Bill
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2009
  35. Steve:

    Sorry to hear about your injury. With your surgical background, I would have thought you would have had your Achilles surgically repaired to help speed the healing process. Good luck with your rehab with whatever treatment you choose.
     
  36. drsarbes

    drsarbes Well-Known Member

    Hi Kevin/Bill:
    Thanks
    I'm not a big fan of surgically repairing ruptured Achilles, surprising isn't it?
    Maybe if I was the starting halfback for the Green Bay Packers........the re-rupture rate is higher for non surgically repaired but even that decreases considerably depending on the rehab protocol one follows. I think my Racquetball days are over, I'll concentrate on GOLF.

    My main problem now is going to be getting from the scrub sink to the OR without using my hands on crutches, etc...... Has anyone had any experience with the ROLLERFOOT?

    Looks like it might work.

    Steve
     
  37. Steve:

    In my experience with athletes and other active "mature" adults, I think that you would probably fare better and have less recovery time with the surgical repair.

    There are a number of roller caddy devices available...I'll bet one of the suppliers would lend you one for a few months at no charge just to get you to try their model out.

    http://www.rolleraid.com/

    http://www.roll-a-bout.com/
     
  38. markjohconley

    markjohconley Well-Known Member

    All the best with the tendon!
    Steve, small point I realise, but the total is 46.3, which includes the foreign born, non-citizens, where is this 35.9 figure on the table?
    Very impressive, was that a private hospital? and would that happen to all citizens in all regions of the USA?
    mark
     
  39. If you had a complete rupture, then as Bill points out, your journey may have been comparable. However, if you had a partial tear, or had suffered an inversion/supination injury with rupture of the lateral ankle ligaments, you might not have been so fortunate. The latter injury is a big bugbear for me - having seen dozens of patients - often active young sports players who have presented at A & E - who have been misdiagnosed, and as a consequence will no longer be able to participate in their sport to the same degree as pre-injury. Usually they are triaged by a nurse or house-officer or registrar with little experience in trauma orthopaedics and diagnosed, after x-rays, to have nothing more than a sprained ankle. Ice, elevation, an elastic bandage and a few days off work the usual management. Soft tissue injuries - even one as serious as complete ligament disruption - rarely merit more than minimal intervention, often with disastrous long term prospects for the patient.

    Last March I examined a distressed dancing instructor who fell coming down a marble staircase whilst on holiday in Tenerife 6 months earlier. She waited until her return to England 2 days later before seeking Rx. On her return, the local A&E depatment examined her (Nurse) badly bruised and swollen leg and took an x-ray and declared there was nothing wrong other than the bruising which they advised would subside within 3 weeks. A month later she still couldn't walk more than 20 yards. Her GP examined her and noted bruising and swelling still present and referred her to the NHS physiotherapist. An appointment arrived a week later - for 5 months time! Back to her GP a week later and he told her to revisit the A&E department if she was still having problems. She did. This time a registrar examined her - after 5 hour wait - and came to the same conclusion as the original triage nurse. Same advice, except he also gave her some rotational exercises to do.

    Two months later she is still off work and cannot walk without a stick for more than 20 yards. By this time her GP had prescribed some analgesics and antidepressants. Leg still very painful. DEspite a number of calls to the physiotherapist department, she was unable to advance her appoinmtnet and in desperation she saw our physio at my practice. By this time - 5 months post injury - there was marked atrophy of the injured leg's gastroc complex - and when you ran your fingers up the TA there was amost a complete disruption 7 inches up from the insertion - only a tiny strand of tendon was intact! Urgent private referral to our Foot and Ankle surgeon who performed a salvage op 2 days later. She will be fortunate to have 70% function after rehab. Not the best prospect for a dancing instructor!

    In 28 years experience in healthcare in the UK I would say that this is not untypical. There is a lack of trauma specialists with good knowledge of lower extremity injuries in our front line services. But plenty assistant grade personnel AKA triage nurses and house officers.....
     
  40. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Hi Steve

    A colleague over here sustained a tib/fib # but wanted to return to work with a cast on. He managed by resting his knee on a wheeled surgeons seat and 'scooting' with the other foot.

    All the best

    Bill
     
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