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Mosaic verrucae-help with treatment

Discussion in 'General Issues and Discussion Forum' started by poppet, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. Here's a pretty solidly guarenteed method with potassium Permanganate.

    1. Place some double sided sticky tape to the lesion and mask the area.
    2. Ahere some Pot Permang Crystals to the lesion, as much as possible
    3. Pour some glycerol into the cavity over the crystals.
    4. Run.

    ;)

    Regards
    Robert

    PS
    Lest anyone not know what happens when you mix potassium permanganate and glycerol, try this on a bit of tin foil before you do it to a patient. I accept no resonsibility for damaged feet from trying this.
     
  2. Magda:

    If the patient was immunocompromised, I would not perform the needling technique on them. My educated guess would be that the technique would have less chance of working but likely would not cause any deeper spread of the virus.
     
  3. AngieR

    AngieR Active Member

    To all,

    I first tried the needling technique last October and whilst I didn't think there was anything to it, as my first experience appeared to fail, I now know differently :)

    A young 20 something man had multiple mosaic and single verrucae all over one foot, and I needled the large mass, as he was going away for 6 month, and surprise surprise they have all gone! I am totally amazed as is he, not even a scar!

    Another young 30 something lady with a stubborn verruca has advised me hers is almost gone too, this one I did in February.

    An older lady with a large vp to the PMA was needled in October and by January had doubled in size so I resorted to traditional methods, this is too, almost gone - whether it was the needling or the traditional methods I will never know!

    This is just a small amount of what I have done, but I believe the immune response may sometimes take longer than the 6 months some have said, so I will now attack more of the stubborn vps with glee and wait for the results.

    So, from being a sceptic, I believe it could offer an alternative to traditional methods, especially if someone can't attend regularly for treatment.

    Angie
     
  4. zsuzsanna

    zsuzsanna Active Member

    Please do not mix potassium permanganate with glycerol! There is a slight delay and then there is a pretty violent reaction releasing oxygen. NOT recommended!!
     
  5. Graham

    Graham RIP

    For what it's worth. I have done ten needling procedures on my most stubborn warts 9 of which have totally resolved. 5 had multiple warts on both feet and one hand, all of which resolved also.
     
  6. Christine Miles

    Christine Miles Welcome New Poster

    I have recently come across a beautician using electrolysis for the treatment of verrucas and warts. this is the same treatment as used for hair removal and for other minor skin problems (ie skin tags). She has had great success on all ages including small children. No anaesthetic is required,it is not bloody and there is minimal pain. It seems as though she basically applies the electrolsis needle which is very fine, with a mild electric current, multiple times to the lesion. Do you think that the same principles as our needling technique are being employed here?
    Christine
     
  7. zsuzsanna

    zsuzsanna Active Member

    I have a Biogun which emits a very small electric current that is forced to travel across the air due to a very high voltage, and is carried by oxygen ions in the air. This has helped to remove some verrucas. I am not sure if the electrolysis is the same. With the Biogun the electrode does not touch the skin at all. Has anyone else have a Biogun?
     
  8. Gillian Day

    Gillian Day Welcome New Poster

    Hello Poppet,

    I use, direst from the plant. Aloe Vera Gel - it takes a little while to resolve- patients find it eases the build-up of callus, reduces the friction on the plantar aspect, is easy to apply - keeps in a fridge up to 10 days. I normally suggest they purchase a plant so that they have a ready supply.

    The gel direct from the plant appears to offer a better gel than processed Aloe Vera. I see them on a regualr bases and debride the site as nec. and laser to encourage the immune system to aid in the healing process. Thuja is also helpful


    Gillian
     
  9. Trent Baker

    Trent Baker Active Member

    Kevin, I was wondering how you apply local anesthetic to the plantar surface of the foot when using this technique. If the lesion is digital then a digital block would work well. However if the lesions are on the PMA or otherwise how do you achieve a block? Do you use a field block or a total ankle block?
     
  10. Trent:

    Please pick which of the following you were referring to when you used the acronym, PMA:

    PMA Positive Mental Attitude
    PMA Premarket Approval
    PMA Photo Marketing Association
    PMA phpMyAdmin
    PMA Phorbol 12-myristate 13-acetate
    PMA Programa Mundial de Alimentos (Spanish: World Food Program)
    PMA Philadelphia Museum of Art
    PMA President's Management Agenda
    PMA Produce Marketing Association
    PMA Países Menos Adelantados (Spanish: Less Advanced Countries)
    PMA Precision Metalforming Association
    PMA Pacific Maritime Association
    PMA Publishers Marketing Association
    PMA Promotion Marketing Association, Inc.
    PMA Pressurized Mating Adapter (ISS)
    PMA Philippine Military Academy
    PMA Pilates Method Alliance
    PMA Physical Medium Attachment
    PMA Policy Management Authority
    PMA Paramethoxyamphetamine
    PMA Pacific Media Associates (Menlo Park, California)
    PMA Pakistan Medical Association
    PMA Prime Minister's Awards for Teaching Excellence (Canada)
    PMA Provincial Museum of Alberta (Edmonton, Alberta, Canada)
    PMA Postmenstrual Age
    PMA Plan de Manejo Ambiental (Spanish: Environmental Management Plan)
    PMA Penanaman Modal Asing (Indonesian: foreign direct investment)
    PMA Philippine Medical Association
    PMA Poste Médical Avancé (advanced medical post)
    PMA Progressive Muscular Atrophy
    PMA Portland Museum of Art (Maine, USA)
    PMA Primary Market Area
    PMA Pencil Makers Association
    PMA Power Marketing Administration
    PMA Peroneal Muscular Atrophy
    PMA Paesi Meno Avanzati (Italian: Least Developed Countries)
    PMA Permanent Magnet Alternator
    PMA Palestine Monetary Authority
    PMA Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia (men's music fraternity)
    PMA Pakistan Military Academy
    PMA Polyurethane Manufacturers Association
    PMA Pharmaceutical Manufacturers' Association of South Africa
    PMA Performance Measurement Association
    PMA Portable Maintenance Aid
    PMA Propylene glycol Monomethyl ether Acetate
    PMA Performance Management Association
    PMA Physics, Mathematics, and Astronomy (Caltech division)
    PMA Purchasing Management Association
    PMA Paul's Model Art (Germany)
    PMA Post Mission Analysis
    PMA People's Memorial Association (Seattle, WA)
    PMA Presentation of Mary Academy
    PMA Planned Maintenance Availability
    PMA Power Marketing Agency
    PMA Particular Material Appraisal
    PMA Program Management Associates (Arlington, VA)
    PMA Port of Melbourne Authority (Australia)
    PMA Phased Maintenance Availability
    PMA Pilomyxoid Astrocytoma
    PMA Portfolio Management Account
    PMA Project Manager Analyst
    PMA Pre-Motor Area (of the brain; neurology)
    PMA Part Manufacturing Approval
    PMA Professional Marketing Association
    PMA Pakistan Marine Academy (Karachi Pakistan merchant navy institute)
    PMA Program Management Agreement
    PMA Performance Measurement Analysis
    PMA Pump Module Assembly
    PMA Program Management Activity (US Navy)
    PMA Print Media Austria
    PMA Parts Manufacture Authority
    PMA Power Memory Area
    PMA Program Management Administration
    PMA Program Management Air
    PMA Palouse Mycological Association (Pullman, Washington)
    PMA Post Metal Annealing
    PMA Presidential Mandate
    PMA Plant Growth Modeling, Simulation, Visualization and Applications (symposium)
    PMA Palau Mission Academy
    PMA Priority Memory Access
    PMA Program Management and Analysis
    PMA Plumbing and Mechanical Association
    PMA Permanent Magnet Assembly
    PMA Parallel Multithreaded Architecture
    PMA Pathology Management Assembly (Medical Group Management Association)
    PMA Program/Project Manager, Air (NAVAIR)
    PMA Production-Marketing Association
    PMA Philippine Motors Association
    PMA Pointing Mirror Assembly
    PMA Pennsylvania Manufacturers Association Insurance Group
    PMA Project Military Adviser
    PMA Post Metallisation Anneal
    PMA 4-Methoxyamphetamine Paramethoxyamphetamine
    PMA Probability of Mission Abort
    PMA political/military assessment (US DoD)
    PMA Post Mortem Autolysis (pathology)
    PMA Planar Monopole Antenna
    PMA Paging Message Analyzer
    PMA Project Market Area
    PMA Poid Maximal Autorisé (France)
    PMA Psycho-Motor Activity
    PMA Pilot Maintenance Activity
    PMA Personnel Management Advisor/Academy
    PMA Professional Manager's Association
    PMA Peat Moss Association
    PMA Probabilistic Modeling and Analysis
    PMA Procurement Method Analyst
    PMA Project Model Administration
    PMA Printing Management Associates (Cerritos, CA)
    PMA Paint Makers Association
    PMA Paddle Monitoring Acceleration
    PMA Pierce, Monroe and Associates, LLC (Detroit, MI)
    PMA Partner Market Agreement


    :cool:
     
  11. Trent Baker

    Trent Baker Active Member

    Sorry Kevin, I was in a hurry ;)

    Plantar metatarsal area.
     
  12. Trent:

    I use ethyl chloride spray to freeze the plantar skin then inject from plantar, unless I can reach the plantar area from dorsally with the needle. I described this technique more fully earlier on in this thread. You may have to go looking for it.
     
  13. Trent Baker

    Trent Baker Active Member

    Thanks Kevin I'll read through the whole thing. Appreciate the time you have taken to respond.
     
  14. Trent:

    When you find it, why don't you copy it back up here toward the front of the thread so others can also read it without having to wade through the whole thread.

    Thanks.:drinks
     
  15. Mr.T

    Mr.T Member

    It appears those contibuting to this thread have had excellent success with the needling technique, I am curious if this is front line management for singular VP's or is it best left for mosaic presentations??

    Excellent thread, have gained valuable info, thanks to all!
     
  16. Jaimee Brent

    Jaimee Brent Active Member

    a question, would you only do the needling once? or do you have to do it a few times over the healing period?

    Thanks,

    Jaimee
     
  17. Jaimee Brent

    Jaimee Brent Active Member

    a question, do you only need to do the needling once? or do some patients require multiple sessions over the time period?

    Thanks,

    Jaimee
     
  18. I will use the needling technique not only for isolated verrucae plantaris lesions but also for mosaic verrucae lesions. The cure rate is approximately 70-80% with a single treatment of the solitary verrucae lesions. If it fails for a solitary lesion, I don't needle a second time but rather perform a currettement procedure with phenol applications at the base of the lesion. I haven't had the needling technique fail yet in the treatment of mosaic verrucae.

    Hope this helps.
     
  19. Angus

    Angus Member

    It is some time since I last visited Podiatry Arena and so I have just discovered this fascinating thread. I have read through the entire thread and have some questions.

    Have any of the 'needled' areas become infected or exhibited any adverse reations? (other than coincidental gout)

    Have any of the NHS pods hoping to persuade their managers to allow the procedure been successful?

    Does the absence of photos in the later posts suggest that success has tailed off over time?
     
  20. susiesue

    susiesue Member

    bumping the thread a bit. :dizzy:
     
  21. blah

    blah Welcome New Poster

    Hi,
    Has anyone come across any returns of verrucae on seemingly resolved areas after this treatment?
    J
     
  22. No I have not had any regrowths (yet). As the puncture treatment addresses the immune issue, there is probably less chance of regrowth with this method. Lately, after speaking to my acupuncture guru, I have been simply inserting a single fine (0.2x15mm) acupuncture needle straight into the centre of the original growth, without a local anaesthetic. I have had some results already. One lady , on whom I had previously tried everything, returned 8 weeks later to report all verrucae (and hand warts) had disappeared, with the exception of the one which had the needle inserted. But even this one was smaller.
    I find the average time to show imoprovement with the puncture treatment is 5 months.
    I find if you debride the verruca( which you select for the needling) well, and warn the patient that it will hurt for a few seconds, they are pretty good with this method. As the acupuncture needle is so fine, and unlike a hypodermic needle, has a round, not sharp, end, it is less painful than giving a local anaesthetic, even dorsal approach.
     
  23. alaranjo

    alaranjo Member

    Hi everyone

    In the last hour i've been trying to search for articles explaning the technique of puncturing, first discribed from Dr. Gordon in 1969, but i can't find anything. Can anyone help me in this matter? My email is andrelaranjo_pd@hotmail.com.
    Thanks

    André
     
  24. twirly

    twirly Well-Known Member

    Hi Andre & :welcome: to Podiatry Arena,

    Dr Kevin Kirby describes the technique in detail on the first page of this thread:
    Kind regards,

    Mandy.
     
  25. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    The original article by Dr Gordon Falknor (1969) has been posted already on this thread but here it is again to save you scanning back through the posts

    Ian
     

    Attached Files:

  26. Brendan Kennedy

    Brendan Kennedy Welcome New Poster

    As a recent arrival on planet Podiatry Arena may I say Hello and ask a simplistic question ; As a means of treating every type of verruca, would energetic debridement (in order to provoke a bleed and thus an immune response) be a good idea?
     
  27. Catfoot

    Catfoot Well-Known Member

    Hello Brendan,
    The problem with VPs is that while all the treatments do work some of the time (including Marigold Therapy !) there is no one treatment that works all of the time.
    I have had some good results with the method you suggest but I would say that you would need to choose your patient very carefully.
    regards

    CF
     
  28. blinda

    blinda MVP


    Hi Brendan,


    These guys thought so;

    Parton AM, Sommerville RG. The treatment of plantar verrucae by triggering cell-mediated immunity Brit J Pod Med 1994; 49:205

    Cheers,
    Bel
     
  29. Pacifico

    Pacifico Member

    Hello !
    another possibility could be the PDT (photodynamic therapy) with 5-ALA.
     
  30. hamish dow

    hamish dow Active Member

    Not all vp's are equal. There is no golden bullet at present but there are multiple approaches
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2011
  31. Mr C.W.Kerans

    Mr C.W.Kerans Active Member

    I completely concur with Hamish Dow's comment. Since the first post by Poppet on 27th February 2009, this thread has continued to inform and fascinate. I very much hope that contributions and supporting photographs will continue. I will be trying this novel technique when opportunity presents. Thank you for all the numerous contributions which have made this treatment such a persuasive alternative to existing therapies.
     
  32. For some reason, I have had an increased number of patients with verrucae plantaris lesions come in recently that I have treated with the Falknor's needling technique.

    One notable patient, whom I thought I should report on, came in a month ago. He is a 15 year old high school student who is an avid golfer. He came in with his mother to complain about multiple verrucae plantaris lesions on his plantar first metarsophalangeal joint (MPJ) and plantar hallux area. He had been treated multiple times by the dermatologist for 1-2 years with varied treatments for these lesions that were now spreading, and were not getting any better no matter what treatment was used. There were about 10 lesions coalesced into about a 3.0 cm x 2.0 cm diameter area, painful, and affecting his walking and his golf. I performed the needling procedure on about three of the largest lesions and, much to my surprise, at his 2 week post-op followup appointment he had near complete resolution of every single lesion on the plantar hallux and 1st MPJ. The patient said he had no pain from the procedure the next day.

    Suffice it to say, the mother thought I was a miracle worker. She said she was going to be telling all of her friends about me and my "magic needle technique". I wish now I had taken photos of this case since I don't think I have ever seen such a rapid response and healing take place. It normally takes about 4-5 weeks to get this kind of level of resolution. Pretty amazing stuff!

    Sometimes the best treatments are the simplest ones.:drinks
     
  33. Robyn Elwell-Sutton

    Robyn Elwell-Sutton Active Member

    Perhaps it is the old black magic - the fear of the next lor of treatment galvanizes the immune system into action???? Well- pointing the bone worked. I will try anything on these horrors.
     
  34. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner Member

    Hello Poppet, Ive not heard of potassium permanganate as a VP treatment, I only recomend that for Tina infections. As for your mosaic vp I have had very good results with the Dentron Biogun and Gluterol treatment, as long as patient is not pregnant, epileptic or has a pacemaker. I IPA site par with blade , biogun it then paint on Gluterol, tell patient to paint on Gluterol twice a day and return i seven days, then I repeat treatment a further two times, then patient paints on Gluterol for one more week then stops, VP will then all clear up within two months fingers crossed, Regards Roadrunner.:empathy:
     
  35. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Hi Roadrunner,

    How were Tina`s VP`s resolved by the Biogun?? According to the Biogun website, `gaseous anions cause lysis of the phospholipid bilayer of microbial cells`. Interesting. So, how would that work on a virus? :confused:
     
  36. billybob

    billybob Member

    Dear Dr Kirby
    I would like to thank-you for the information you supplied , i have a patient with multiple verrucae covering her forefoot , she had them for six years and had been around the block with other treatments, she had one multiple punture session only on a small section of her verrucae 8 weeks ago and attended yesterday for review. SHe has almost complete resolution and to say shes pleased would be an understatement. I only wish i'd taken photos before the proceedure.

    yours sincerely
    Robert Paul
     
  37. Robert:

    Sounds like a great result....just wish more podiatrists knew about this great technique.
     
  38. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner Member

    Hi there, The Biogun emits ions of electricity which kills the vp. dont ask me how but it does. Dentron sell there machine, called Biogun for this job, It also helps in the treatment of Tina and infections of the foot. I friend of mine Clive now retired tested the Biogun some 14 yrs ago and had skin samples examined under electron microscope before and after treatment with the Biogun, results showed no vp in skin samples after treatment. I have been useing this method for over ten years now.
     
  39. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Thanks for the reply. I am familiar with the Dentron Biogun..... still waiting for the evidence to back up the claims in the `critical review` on the website. Notice how the 3 clinical trials for VP treatment utilised a keratolytic in conjunction with the biogun?:rolleyes:

    I find it odd that nobody, including Mr Copus, can actually explain HOW it resolves VP. Of more concern, is why practitioners would use a method of treatment, that they admittedly do not understand HOW it works. But maybe that`s just me.

    Cheers,
    Bel
     
  40. cambspodman

    cambspodman Member

    As far as the LA goes. Are you using Local infiltration or Block

    Thanks

    Cambspodman
     
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