Welcome to the Podiatry Arena forums

You are currently viewing our podiatry forum as a guest which gives you limited access to view all podiatry discussions and access our other features. By joining our free global community of Podiatrists and other interested foot health care professionals you will have access to post podiatry topics (answer and ask questions), communicate privately with other members, upload content, view attachments, receive a weekly email update of new discussions, access other special features. Registered users do not get displayed the advertisements in posted messages. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our global Podiatry community today!

  1. Have you considered the Clinical Biomechanics Boot Camp Online, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Have you considered the Clinical Biomechanics Boot Camp Online, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
Dismiss Notice
Have you liked us on Facebook to get our updates? Please do. Click here for our Facebook page.
Dismiss Notice
Do you get the weekly newsletter that Podiatry Arena sends out to update everybody? If not, click here to organise this.

Poaching or Fair Game?

Discussion in 'Practice Management' started by Nat Smith, Jun 1, 2009.

  1. Nat Smith

    Nat Smith Active Member


    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Continuing on with the theme of poaching, I thought I might seek some words of wisdom from you all and get your opinions on this matter...
    I currently have a contract to service a 120 bed ACF. Based on the numbers, I attend the facility every week and rotate around the wings. The other week, after finishing my list for the day, I was doing my notes at the nurse's station when I glanced at the notice board and saw a flyer advising all the nursing staff to remember the "Podiatry Education Seminar" on for Tues week...First I'd heard about it! I approached the HR woman who had supposedly organised it all in an attempt to work out what was going on. Was this something the facility had organised? Or had someone offered this service? A podiatry company had apparently sent in a letter offering a "FREE" education seminar for the staff. The letter had crossed the manager's desk and she signed off on it..being "FREE" and all, she thought why not?...
    Questions arised immediately...
    1) Why wasn't I asked to do it?
    2) Were they not happy with my service?
    and 3) Who the hell was sniffing around my facility?
    The HR woman then proferred the letter for me to read, (which I still have in my possession)...I had heard of this particular company before...and not favourably...I told her that this company was most likely trying to get the contract for servicing the facility and did not have a particularly good reputation.
    The letter stated that they were offering a "FREE" 20min seminar for staff so that the facility could easily satisfy their accreditation requirements regarding staff education. (Of course they were doing this out of the generosity of their own heart). The seminar was to consist of basic foot care tips and signs for the nursing staff to look out for (as if they weren't competent professionals in their own right). At the end of the letter was a brief mention of keeping their company in mind if the facility needed to seek out new podiatry services "in the future".
    Now, what say you all to this situation?
    My opinion is that writing letters to offer services is commonplace and essential in seeking new business for your practice. Submitting a written tender for a contract when it is available or coming up for review is fair game. BUT...is there not a fine line crossed when you actually seek to get your foot in the door, with offers of "FREE" seminars? When the possible aim is to get face to face with facility management in order to gather information and potentially negotiate a cheaper deal?
    The facility assures me that they are happy with my service and I have had no complaints. I don't feel I have any particular need to worry, but quite frankly I'm a tad peeved at the audacity of this company to willingly poach the contract from under my nose. Did they not think I would find out about it? Did they even care? What recourse would I even have, aside from stamping my feet like a petulant 5yr old at the unfairness of it all? I decided to let them come in and do their seminar (and waste their own time). The nursing staff informed me that it was a waste of time and actually quite patronising to them all. My general feeling is to let it pass and not waste my time and energy on worrying about it, especially since the facility doesn't seem to be considering it at all. The other side of me wants to call them up and give them a piece of my mind. What say you all? Poaching or fair game?
    Thanks,
    Nat Smith
     
  2. MelbPod

    MelbPod Active Member

    Hi Nat,

    In my opinion, as you said, by marketing your business and approaching ACF and medical facilities to introduce the services you offer to them is fair game, this is part of business and unfortunatly sometimes it can sometimes become a bit 'dog eat dog'.

    However I dont think you have anything to worry about. "A company" similar in characteristics to the one you mentioned has approached the medical centres I work for to instruct the practice nurse on how to direct referral to this company. The practice nurses have basically felt patronised and have taken no action towrds following these "instructions".

    I dont think you need to worry.

    Sally
     
  3. pgcarter

    pgcarter Well-Known Member

    Do you want to be a dog anyway?....and would you want to eat one?...this whole business is a bit grubby, since when did medical practices compete on price anyway? Don't stoop to it, just go on providing the best service you can and that will be recognised.
    regards Phill
     
  4. MelbPod

    MelbPod Active Member

    I dont think medical practices compete for the cheapest price at all. I have loyal clinics that are happy with the level of service, competance and accessibility that I offer to their patients.

    Thats where I think some "dogs" get it all wrong.

    In answer to your questions Phill....no and no. Im a vegetarian.

    Regards,
    Sally
     
  5. posalafin

    posalafin Active Member

    Nat

    I have no doubt that the company doesn't care about what you think, otherwise they would have gone to the effort of contacting you and informing you of what they were doing.

    Is it fair game? I guess that they are entitled to offer their services and clearly they see offering 'free seminars' as a potential way to get contracts and thereby improve their business. From what you say however it seems like their 'free seminars' aren't all that fantastic anyhow, which ultimately may go against them rather than give them any real advantage.

    I think that as more 'franchise/ brand name type' podiatry businesses start up this sort of practice will inevitably become more common place. I think contacting this company to 'give them a piece of your mind' or 'stamping your feet like a petulant child' would probably be just playing into their hands. I think that if you continue providing a high standard of care and a friendly, courteous demeanour to the client's you will stand in good stead to have any contracts renewed. Perhaps you could do an inservice for the staff from time to time that doesn't insult their intelligence and is actually educationally beneficial to them as opposed to a marketing pitch.

    And at the end of the day if you do lose out to that company when (or if) the contract comes up for renewal because they tender a rock bottom price then so be it. Usually when such companies offer unrealistically low tenders the service usually ends up being of a low standard and chances are the nursing home (or at least the clients) will be pleading with you to come back.

    Regards,

    David Kelly
     
  6. Nat Smith

    Nat Smith Active Member

    I totally agree with you David. I have no intention of playing into their hands and being drawn into any turf wars. I just get on with my job and do it to the best of my ability. I just find that this type of behaviour is becoming more commonplace and as Phil says, it's a rather grubby business, that I don't think is entirely ethical. I agree that it is fair game for us all to market our services, but I think there is an honest and more honourable way to go about such things rather than so-called "free" seminars that aren't really offering anything. If any of my ACF's decided to replace me for a cheaper service, there's not much I can do about it. To be honest, I'd rather be working extra days from my clinic, earning more money and sparing my back! Looking at the bigger picture though, I do worry about the future level of care that ACF's will be provided. A cut-price pod service means these companies have difficulty retaining pods, therefore no continuity or consistency of care; things undoubtedly get missed. It affects the reputation of our industry as a whole. I'm not interested in being the one to gloat later on, when or if, they do beg to have you back. I'd rather see the whole profession thought highly of and our services regarded with respect.
    Nat
     
  7. williac

    williac Active Member

    The Standard of care in private aged care facilities is directly proportional to the profits the owner(s) wish to maintain. These places are a business first and a care facility second - and accordingly the standard of care is often compromised.
    I was asked to attend a new facility a while ago. I reluctantly agreed to do so as they had "tried everyone else". Completed all the care plans and initial assessments (50 odd) in order for appropriate funding to be obtained by the facility. The coercion to add various 'extra' treatments to the care plans (for extra funding) was notable. Once done they sacked me and employed a foot care nurse. Lesson learnt. I will never do it again.

    Chris
     
  8. Nat Smith

    Nat Smith Active Member

    Does anyone actually know how much funding the facilities get? How does it break down per head? Would it be equivalent to the EPC or DVA rebate approx. $50ish per person?Be interesting to actually know how much profit they make out of us...considering most people I know working in ACF's charge on average $25-30. One facility that approached mea few yrs back to take over, (after they'd been left in the lurch by a company) claimed they had been paying their previous pod service $12 per head and didn't mind if Rx was only 5mins either, getting through 50 residents in a day session. I told them that was nowhere near the going rate or approp standard of care and consequently didn't take that contract. Some facilities are really well run, but there are some shockers out there.
     
  9. Moose

    Moose Active Member

    The company doing the rounds of Brisbane comes out of Sydney I hear. If anyone knows more about them, I'd like to hear how satisfied their customers are with the service. I 'm sure there are things I don't know about how facilities are funded. Apparently this company is not particularly cheaper but 'provides other efficiencies'. Can anyone enlighten me?
     
  10. Airlie

    Airlie Active Member

    I work in SA RCF's. The company I work for are national.

    1 / wrt funding, it has all changed since ACFI came in, and it seems that they are grasping for money from any requirement and it gets pooled for the total cost of maintaining the resident. I dont know that there is a set $ value for podiatry. I did learn recently that corns/callus come under mobility restriction so adds to funding, and that generally podiatry comes under the skin integrity banner

    2/ One facility I visit has 180 beds, and before we took over it was left upto private podiatrists to service, a huge task to try and do this and then work privately 3-4 days a week. When I got there some residents hadnt had nail care or podiatry care plans done for 4 years!! after 2.5 years I am only now getting on top of it and I am there for 6-7 hours every week! The reason this kind of podiatry works is that I am at a facility all day, treat residents and do care plans etc. I cant imagine trying to fit it this into a clincal practice schedule. In SA it took us 3 months just to find a locum to cover maternity leave.

    We dont always know as podiatrists who does what, I have been visiting the same facilities for nearly 3 years and some nurses/carers still dont know who I am. For Nat when the company offering free education rang, the facility might not have connected you 'the toe nail lady' with 'podiatrist' - and this isnt derogatory, I get called the toe nail lady daily!
    Imagine if these companies didnt do marketing and RCF's went for years without a podiatrist or had only allied health assistants tending to there podiatry needs.
    I would definitely suggest calling the company concerned and let them know that you are servicing the facility they are offering free seminars too. Undercutting is horrible and makes you feel worthless, but it isnt always ruthless.
    or better yet, make sure your RCF's know exactly what you do and what you can offer so they do not get confused when someone else tries to get the business...

    I hope this helps some perspective, and I would be happy to answer any questions re: how my employer operates in aged care podiatry...

    I also work in my own private practice 2 days a week and see big chain private practices offering MBO orthotics to undercut everyone else. Arent they a requirement not a money making spin?? but thats a whole other thread....
     
  11. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Hi guys,

    Great postings.

    1. Could someone please tell me (Airlie?), what is involved in completing an ACFI (mobility) assessment. Can Podiatrists legally complete these? Is there specific ACFI paperwork?

    2. With respect to the written Podiatric patient assessments that are typically undertaken every 6-12 months for patients in ACF's; I have seen that the large, National Companies that supply Podiatry services to ACF's use their own designed assessment form. (It is not a specific ACFI form). - Can such Podiatry assessment forms contribute to ACFI funding or not ??

    3. What is involved in an "individualised care plan" for Podiatry?? Is there a standard ACFI form to complete for a "care plan" ?? What does the "care plan" include??

    Thanks heaps (a final year student trying to learn the ropes),
    surfboy
     
  12. Airlie

    Airlie Active Member

    surf boy,
    1.) In my experience, facilties take the ACFI assessments into their own hands, I have never been asked to do a specific assessment/care plan. In fact I have found that only the very good facilties actually give me any acknowledgement that they have read them.. Most facilties I guess rely on the fact that we will do our job and create/update assessments and care plans.
    2.) We use our own assessment and careplan form. Makes it easy for our/other practitioners to refer to and they are fairly simple for facility reference too. I have seen variations ranging from Care Plan only to SOAP in case notes. The problem with this is in most facilties, progress notes are archived regularly, and with 6-8 weekly treatments, they are not always available
    for reference.
    3.) care plans can vary, but I havent found we have an 'active' role in ACFI. Its usually good to ask a facility if there is anything specific they want included for their requirements.
     
Loading...

Share This Page