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How to find the ideal heel height of a shoe

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Griff, Jan 18, 2010.

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  1. Griff

    Griff Moderator


    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Full story from the Mail Online here

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Here the UK most famous Podiatrist it seems Emma Supple on GMTV(what every that is) Here is a few more of her Views.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J3HpEbAvlI

    She says that each female will have the correct heel to wear or something like that.

    As a bloke I would want to know what is my perfect heel height there Emma. If she says you don´t have one because you are a male, then what makes a female foot different to a males and then send Robert on to her to discuss Double blind studys for her heel height facts.
     
  3. Wht?!?

    F?!?!


    FSSST??????

    Oh forget it.

    I'm off to the cupboard for my ideal 3 inch heels.
     
  4. Is that name, "Emma Supple", her real name.....or her stage name?:cool:
     
  5. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    That's how to get famous and get on television.

    Make some outrageous claim that the vast majority of the population would like to believe but is obviously complete nonsense to anyone with an IQ greater than that of a toothpick.

    For example, in Glasgow, a dietician may say something like, "patients attending my dietetics clinic have found that eating battered fish and chips 3 times a day actually helps with weight loss. I've been giving out prescriptions to the chip shop ever since and my patients love me"

    Someone like that is bound to get on telly!
     
  6. Does anyone have a contact with Emma, maybe she can come on and explain what she means etc ?
     
  7. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

  8. Robyn Elwell-Sutton

    Robyn Elwell-Sutton Active Member

    Ideal Heel height can often be predicted by a number of factors: the flexibility and stability of the lower lumber region - as this is the first body segment to bear the true brunt of compensating for a rise in heel height - hypermobility issues (all body segments) but particularly with a pes cavus foot, the degree of rear foot varus /tibial varum, and the ROM of the first ray and 1st MPJ.
    e.g a hypermobile pes cavus with tib varum 6 degrees + a stable pelvic girdle/lumbar region will be more comfortable in a medium high heel than a flat shoe.

    As the heel is elevated, it inverts and approaches the rear foot neutral position. BUT - there must be adequate mid foot restraint. Interesting note: the only "high heels" I could ever stand up in were Robert Clergerie - a French engineer! Wish I knew his secrets and insights.
     
  9. One thing I will say for emma is that she probably did more to promote "podiatry" (rather than shiropody) in 2 mins on gmtv than the rest of us manage in years of explaining it to people.

    Ian? You or me.
     
  10. Cameron

    Cameron Well-Known Member

    netizens

    To the very best of my knowledge in the structure of the shoe, heel height is matched to the toe spring which in turn defines the tread line over the metatarsal heads. Provided these match and the shoe has sufficient volume to accommodate a kinetic foot then heel height can be as high as toe spring will allow. Comfort is subjective and gait adaptation is essential but for some power heels would be prefectly acceptable.

    Applying the Chaos Theory when things go wrong then they will go very wrong but otherwise for a minority high heels (matched with appropriate toe string etc) present no real issue.

    The consequence of upper body adaptation (much cited by critics) remains unproven with the only real independent research still undecided about the evils of 'ankle breakers' and in the end it all becomes a matter of opinion.

    Historically condemnation of high heels has been a misogenistic preoccupation. No reason to assume the present media interest is any different. As stereotyping goes high heeled shoes represent permissiveness to some; and somewhat ironically to many modern feminists power dressing is seen as a badge of emancipation. Eitherway it seems to get under some mens' nose.

    toeslayer
     
  11. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

     
  12. Cameron

    Cameron Well-Known Member

    netizens

    To the very best of my knowledge in the structure of the shoe, heel height is matched to the toe spring which in turn defines the tread line over the metatarsal heads. Provided these match and the shoe has sufficient volume to accommodate a kinetic foot then heel height can be as high as toe spring will allow. Comfort is subjective and gait adaptation is essential but for some power heels would be prefectly acceptable.

    Applying the Chaos Theory when things go wrong then they will go very wrong but otherwise for a minority high heels (matched with appropriate toe string etc) present no real issue.

    The consequence of upper body adaptation (much cited by critics) remains unproven with the only real independent research still undecided about the evils of 'ankle breakers' and in the end it all becomes a matter of opinion.

    Historically condemnation of high heels has been a misogenistic preoccupation. No reason to assume the present media interest is any different. As stereotyping goes high heeled shoes represent permissiveness to some; and somewhat ironically to many modern feminists power dressing is seen as a badge of emancipation. Eitherway it seems to get under some mens' nose.

    toeslayer
     
  13. drsha

    drsha Banned

    Dr. Supple is on a correct tract with her advice.

    General advise about heel height is dangerous advice and borders on negligence since what is good for one FFT is often bad (or very bad) for others.

    She is using the sinus tarsi as her monitor but basically she is reinforcing the fact that functional foot typing predicts the "ideal" heel height for individuals and most people function better in a 1-3" heel (even you blokes).

    Once again, The Arena, rather than inspect and research a colleagues view that differs from their rigid mantras, mocks her name or sex or something else rather than debate the material.

    Supple Definition: Yielding or changing readily.
    Supple: Sorely lacking from The Arena

    "Don't be so humble - you are not that great." Golda Meir
    :drinks:

    Dennis
     
  14. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    I don't think anyone is really saying that wearing flat shoes is good for everyone. I think we are all aware that differing pathologies and ROM restrictions(soft tissue or otherwise) mean that a generically "good" heel height of shoe does not exist

    However, I read the article on the original post out to my mother in law, who has no real knowledge of biomechanics and her summary, as a lay person, was that high heels are OK to wear, period.

    High heels don't get under my nose(literally[unfortunately] or figuratively) but I think this article was perhaps a little misleading. People take things like that as gospel when it is just an opinion.

    Robin
     
  15. Hi Dennis Since your here and I did ask in an earlier post if anyone could get Emma on the explain her Views can you tell me what is good about this picture in I guess 3" heels.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    Wow, that has got to be uncomfortable!

    Robin
     
  17. :good:

    What he said! Good point well made.
     
  18. drsha

    drsha Banned

    M. Weber States:
    Hi Dennis Since your here and I did ask in an earlier post if anyone could get Emma on the explain her Views can you tell me what is good about this picture in I guess 3" heels.

    Dennis Replies:
    Heel height is measured at the posterior surface of a shoe from the ground to the top of the heel subtracting any forefoot height (platform).

    Your picture appears to be closer to a 5" heel than your guess of 3".
    Certainly a 5" heel is unhealthy.
    This woman is choosing style and fashion over health, period.

    Your poor guess reminds me of a joke which goes:
    Why do women make bad carpenters?
    Because all of their lives they have been told that this (picture an average penis) is
    10"! hahahaha

    I hope your STJ measurements, your forefoot measurements and your limb length determinations do not reflect a similar inability to eyeball.

    I ask of you if a patient wearing flat shoes is choosing comfort over support and functional?
    What is healthy about this picture?

    :drinks
    Dennis
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Having built my own house I think I can eye ball and measure quite well, but really not the point.

    Will you please answer my questions and then we can discuss yours, you are making the claim that 1" -3" most people function better. Tell me all about it.
     
  20. drsha

    drsha Banned

    Actually, sir, your question was WHAT IS GOOD ABOUT THIS PICTURE IN I GUESS 3" HEELS?

    I answered that 5" heels are not good.

    Your inabilty to eyeball is in question and IS IMPORTANT Sir.

    That said,
    now that I answered your question can you answer mine.
    Dennis
     
  21. Allright I´ll give this one more try.

    As for your picture Without assessing the foot how am I ment to come up with an answer. Every person is different there is no such thing as normal.

    Now explain this statement

     
  22. Oh good. Another thread turning into a row about FFT. We didn't have enough.

    The problem is with the whole idea of an "ideal" foot height. For anyone. No matter how it is worked out.

    Lets be honest here gents and ladies, we don't know what the hell constitutes "Ideal" foot function so we can't know what the "ideal" heel height is. No, not even you Dennis.

    Even if we did it would vary between times of day (diurnal variation), activity, other elements of the footwear etc etc etc.

    Higher heels might mean less pronation moments. But i suspect they also mean earlier heel strike. Also most heels (as shown in those rather cool pictures) have to be rigid. Which means a damn great steel pin connecting the heel strike of the shoe to the heel itself.

    So, which is more "ideal", an earlier and sharper heel impact with less pronatory moment or a later and softer heel impact with greater pronatory moment.

    The answer, I suspect, is IT DEPENDS! Ideal for what?!

    It is the very concept of a single "ideal position" for anyone which causes me to roll my eyes, not that someone think that is dead flat or 6 inches.

    Regards
    Robert
     
  23. drsha

    drsha Banned

    Please stop diverting.

    Your picture involved no ability to assess the foot blah blah.

    Answer the question or don't.

    Dennis
     
  24. OFFS!!!

    IT DEPENDS ON WHATS WRONG WITH THE FOOT!!!!:bang:
     
  25. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Ready-Brek overdose?
     
  26. PMSL!!!!

    Thanks man. I needed that.
     
  27. heres another picture for you to assess Dennis.
     

    Attached Files:

  28. drsha

    drsha Banned

    Robert:

    The bias of The Arena is unbelievable!!!!!:boxing:

    If I have a patient with a massive amount of forefoot global equinus, maybe even neurological, would that person need large amounts of heel lift in order to have normal function?

    LIKE THIS?
     

    Attached Files:

  29. Dennis, I happen to agree with you on this- to a point. But, lets remove the word "normal" and replace it with some other words such as "more efficient", "less painful" etc something which is more measurable than "normal".
     
  30. blinda

    blinda MVP


    :D Skinning The Competition, Alive!
     
  31. I can see how it would seem that way to you. Its not against you. Its against your views. And they way in which that is expressed is a consequence of the way you express yours.

    However.

    Leave alone that the picture could as easily be someone standing on tiptoe, I know what you mean. And this is actually a fertile area to discuss and a reasonable way to ask a question.

    The answer I come back is the same. It depends what we take as normal function.

    Lets assume that the foot you show is pure fixed FF equinus. What would filling that gap with a heel raise (or heeled shoe) acheive? Yes for sure it might reduce pronation moments. But it will also force the digits to function in a range between 90 degrees and 90 + whatever.

    So how do you define normal or ideal function? If you look at the rearfoot you might well say you need to boost that heel. Look at the toes (as a surgeon might when this patient comes in with PMA pain or painful sHL) you'd say that the inclination angle of the mets is high enough as it is without making it worse by boosting the heel.

    This is not about "are heel raises bad" or "should everyone wear flat shoes". Its about WHY. And when you start chasing the rainbow of "ideal" or "normal" function you are doomed to be wrong in some way.

    R
     
  32. Why did you not say something this this earlier and people would have to get so upset.
     
  33. For the above patient I can see a heel but you said most people function better with a 1-3" heel I still don´t have an answer to why you think it is so.
     
  34. drsha

    drsha Banned

    Dare I say it.

    But


    One or more of you would have to be supple and open your minds to review and even consider Functional Foot Typing.

    Final Answer
     
  35. That was an infomercial brought to you by Dr D. Shavelson, if you have been affected by any of the issues in this programme, please telephone our support network...
     
  36. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    Just got the Ready Brek joke. Lightening fast, I am.
     
  37. You guys crack me up!


    That's why people get annoyed dennis. You ask a decent question, people take time to answer, then you ignore the answers and start your old broken record sales pitch again.
     
  38. drsha

    drsha Banned

    When Kevin raised unknowns for me I read his work.

    I read some of skinners work

    I review suggested articles that you post

    and I learned stuff because of it.

    I am not proiritized to translate my work into your language and the answers to many (if not all) of your questions are in it (or I would answer those unanswered in what is available once read).

    My priorities do not include convincing you blokes of anything but likewise, I won't let the verbal diarrhea part of The Arena go unnoticed.

    If you don't like my infomercials, change the channel.



    Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. Albert Einstein
    Dennis
     
  39. Nice quote. He also wrote
    Thrilled for you!

    We can't. They pop up in every 3rd thread! Its bordering on spam. Especially given that all you do is whitter about how you have all the answers and no one else does.

    So what are you saying. You now understand physics well enough to explain it to us in English, but you won't because its not your priority. But you WILL keep popping your adverts in the middle of unrelated threads until we give in and stand amazed at your manifest genius...

    Dennis, this is a discussion forum. You wanna discuss? Discuss. You wanna stand by what you say and explain yourself? Great! You want to use your new found knowledge of up to date terminology to better explain your model? Fabulous. Start a thread for it and we'll see if it makes any more sense this time over.

    If you just plan to spam threads with ad hominems, irrelevant questions and adverts for your patented and rather naive method of assessment with the express purpose of improving your bank balance, do us a favour and sod off, there's a good chap.

    Because I think I speak for everyone when I say it stopped being interesting some while ago now.
     
  40. Robyn Elwell-Sutton

    Robyn Elwell-Sutton Active Member

    Anatomical variation and ability to adapt to adverse environment (e.g footwear, floor surface) has allowed the race to evolve and to produce elite athletes! The argument has dissoved into semantics: what is "normal", "ideal" ? The worst aspect of some high heels is the placement of the heel behind the line of body weight below the leg creating foot slap and forward rapid displacement of the entire body weight unless the knee bends to control thhis and the back increases its lordosis.
    Do you realise that a Google search reveals some of this "argee bargee" attributed to yourselves forever?
     
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