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Barefoot Running Debate

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Kevin Kirby, Jan 21, 2010.

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  1. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    Me either Craig, in fact in some circumstances they are clearly better. However, in this instance, it is obviuosly just a means to justify a non-existant end... ho hum
     
  2. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Vibram Five Fingers are hosting an 'All-star running clinic' featured Prof Daniel Lieberman and Chris McDougall next Saturday in Boston

    More here
     
  3. Ian:

    Thanks for the information, Ian. I'm sure they are going to be talking all about the benefits of running in Nike shoes. :rolleyes:

    Will someone tell these guys that running in Vibram FiveFingers is running shod....not running barefoot!!.::bang::craig:
     
  4. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Haha - knowing what a fan of Nike Chris is I think you could be right :rolleyes:

    I heard a rumour on the grapevine over here in the UK that Daniel Lieberman is running the London Marathon 2 weeks on Sunday.* I for one will be interested to see what footwear (if any) he competes in...

    *may not be true
     
  5. Maybe I should fly out to Boston so that Chris can meet the Angry Podiatrist in person.:D:rolleyes::drinks
     
  6. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Here is another video that just turned up on YouTube:

    I guess it just goes to show that barefoot running is different to running with running shoes. Why do so many use this kind of research on differences to claim that one is better than the other?

    In one we get more heel impact and in the other we get more load through the achilles.....

    Most of the studies looking at the differences have looked at heel impact (but NEVER report on achilles loads) (eg Liebermann in Nature) and claim that heel impact is higher with running shoes, but despite repeated requests none of them have actually been able to tell us what an impact related injury is and produce any evidence as to the impact actually being harmful and increaseing the risk for injury.

    We also have the work from Joe Hamil et al on the energey efficiency and they concluded that "RF footfall pattern appears to be least costly in terms of energy per unit distance" - ie running with a heel contact is a MORE efficient way to run.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  7. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

    Why do thay not come up with the goods and keep making those unsupported claims?

    What about this genius who posted earlier in this thread:
    In which you asked him:
    He never came back with any studies.
     
  8. Craig:

    Do you have the reference for Joe's paper? Thanks.
     
  9. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    He presented it at PFOLA late last yr, so I do not think its published yet.
     
  10. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    This question does not pertain to barefoot running. My wife and I have had a considerable debate about these shoes, and we are on the fence about carrying them in our store.

    Could the Vibram 5 Fingers shoe be used as a therapeutic device to strengthen the adaptive muscles of the feet and lower extremities if worn only when walking on grass, sand or uneven surfaces?

    Some have argued that the muscles of the feet atrophy in conventional footwear. If someone were to wear a foot covering like Vibram 5 Fingers while walking in the back yard, gardening at the park etc., could they derive any benefit wearing these shoes?

    Please understand that I am not an advocate for these shoes. As a comfort shoe retailer, I am trying to see if there is any place for these shoes in my store.

    I welcome your opinions.
     
  11. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    I will just resond to this bit.
    There is not ONE shred of evidence that foot muscles get weaker in those that wear shoes. As there is evidence that foot orthotics strengthen muscles, there is certainly doubt that shoe would do that. Weak intrinsic muscles of the foot actually cause a higher arch supinated foot and we ain't seeing an epidemic of this feet in the shoe wearing population.

    That does not mean that going barefoot and/or the use of the Vibram is not a bad thing ... perhaps everyone will benefit from short perod of altered biomechanics in the way the Nigg recommends the MBT's ...
     
  12. JB1973

    JB1973 Active Member

    Please understand that I am not an advocate for these shoes. As a comfort shoe retailer, I am trying to see if there is any place for these shoes in my store

    in the interests of choice, i dont see any reason why you shouldnt stock them on your shop. in the hot weather they might be quite good to wear about the garden or whatever the same way folk wear flip flops or crocs. its the claims from some quarters that come with the shoes and the garbage that follows along with this thats the problem.
    as long as you are not giving any opinion as to barefoot running as such, i dont see any reason not to stock them.
    cheers
    JB
     
  13. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    I'm reading a book at the moment which has nothing to do with barefoot running, but bear with me. Here's an abridged excerpt from it:

    Sound vaguely familiar...?
     
  14. JB1973

    JB1973 Active Member

    hey why let facts get in the way of a good story.

    i had an email from a GP ( they really should know better) asking about mcdougalls book. here is a direct quote from the book that the GP quoted:

    " 'Putting your feet in shoes is similar to putting them in a plaster cast,' Dr. Hartmann said. 'If I put your leg in plaster, we'll find forty to sixty percent atrophy of the musculature within six weeks. Something similar happens to your feet when they're encased in shoes.' page 177
    isnt that just brilliant. thats what i'm up against!!
    cheers
    JB
     
  15. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    And as gets repeatedly said, there is not the slightest bit of evidence that even hints at this being the case. Notice in this thread and other threads that those who come along and make those statements, get challenged to come up with the goods to back up the claims. They never come back!

    As the evidence is that foot orthotics either do not weaken arch muscles (one study) and can strengthen the calf muscles (one study) and no study has shown they weaken mucles, I wish those making the above claims could explain why we would even believe that running shoes weaken muscles?

    ...and do not forget that weak intrinsic muscles of the foot actually cause a supinated high arch foot.
     
  16. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Of course. Its exactly how the media and the barefoot running community interpreted the Kerrigan research that running shoes casue osteoarthritis (when it was not even a study on osteoarthritis) and how the media and the barefoot running community interpreted the Liebermann research that you get less injuries when running barefoot (when it was not even a study on injuries)! Been there. Done that.
     
  17. JB1973

    JB1973 Active Member

    As the evidence is that foot orthotics either do not weaken arch muscles (one study) and can strengthen the calf muscles (one study) and no study has shown they weaken mucles, I wish those making the above claims could explain why we would even believe that running shoes weaken muscles?

    hiya Craig
    do you have the references for the 2 studies that you mention above (or was it the same study). would like to read them
    cheers
    JB
     
  18. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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  19. JB1973

    JB1973 Active Member

    craig,
    cheers mate
    JB
     
  20. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

  21. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    The article starts quite boldly:

    And then within a couple of paragraphs we have this:

    Hmmm.

    Later on in the article this caught my eye:

    No reference cited for the stats there - anyone familiar with the research which showed this? It sounds like it was a kinematic study but would be interested to read it and look at the methodology etc (assuming it has been published of course). It is only fair that we are as critical of this as we are the 'barefoot research' and at a cursory glance this looks no more of a study on injury risk than the Lieberman paper was.
     
  22. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Dr Lieberman completed the Virgin London Marathon on Sunday and did so in 4:40:19. He was wearing Vibram Five Fingers.
     
  23. I confess, I did not watch the race. How many barefoot runners did people spot?

    Got that disc from you BTW Ian.
     
  24. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    I didn't watch it either as I was in Barcelona watching the football. A few mates worked/volunteered there and I dropped them an email this morning to ask the same question - still awaiting a response.

    Glad it finally got there Simon - expect a phone call soon ;)
     
  25. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    This chap ran it completely barefoot apparently, and finished in 4:09:30

    And this one. He finished in 4:11:57

    Ian
     
  26. I would hope that Lieberman ran shod with Vibram FiveFingers since they have been paying for his research and his Harvard website (see disclamer at bottom of his Harvard website that "objectively" analyzes barefoot running).

    http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/5BarefootRunning&TrainingTips.html

    No conflict of interest there.:rolleyes:

    If Lieberman had run the marathon barefoot, then I would have been impressed. However, instead, he ran in the brand of shoes that is sponsoring him. So Lieberman is now no different than the elite runners who wear racing flats of the shoe company that is sponsoring them. These racing flats are often as thin soled and light as the Vibram Fivefinger and similar lightweight-thin soled designs have existed for the last 35 years within the running shoe industry. The biggest difference between the elite runners and Lieberman is that the sponsored elite runners completed the marathon before the sponsored Lieberman even reached the half-way point of the marathon. A 10:41 mile pace for the marathon......not a very good advertisement for Vibram Fivefingers in my book!

    This barefoot running fad is such a joke....nearly all of the players in the "barefoot running fad" are now just out promoting some brand or new style of "barefoot shoes" or "minimalist shoes" so they can make money off of other people's gullibility. What a joke!!:craig::eek:
     
  27. Just had a chat with a patient who ran at the London marathon last Sunday. I asked him how many barefoot runners he saw? He said he didn't see any. But the Vibram stand at the expo was generating a great deal of interest...
     
  28. JB1973

    JB1973 Active Member

    http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harva...iningTips.html


    the link that Kevin posted in the post above i was clicking on the videos of the brefoot runner and the shod runner. i stopped both vidoes at the same time on the force/time graph ( 0.188 seconds) and the force x bodyweight in the barefoot is 2.43 and in the shod 2.36.
    now i dont know if this is the same person and i know that there are many other variables but isnt one of the arguments of the barefooters that it lessens impact etc. this would appear to show that it doesnt (taken at face value)

    cheers
    JB
     
  29. JB:

    Funny you mention that.

    During my Barefoot Running Debate with Barefoot Ken Bob and Amby Burfoot for Runner's World magazine, I made the statement that runners will impact the ground with 2-3 times body weight. Ken Bob said, in reply, that in proper barefoot running technique, the barefoot runners doesn't impact the ground, but rather gently touches the ground then pushes off of it. Then I said, in my best sarcastic tone, "Oh, you mean barefoot runners "float" over the ground when they are running?!" Both Amby and I laughed next at my comment. Unfortunately, this part of the debate was cut out of the Runner's World interview.

    This just goes to show you that what the barefoot runners think they are doing and what they are actually doing, are two very different things.
     
  30. Tim VS

    Tim VS Active Member

    2 quick comments. I have worked at the Marathon for 3 years now and have yet to encounter a barefoot runner. Secondly I am curious as to what the times would have been for the two barefoot runners had they been wearing shoes.

    Cheers,

    TimVS
     
  31. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    We know that Abebe Bikala could run faster and break a world record when he started using running shoes.
     
  32. Word has it that 1,000 barefoot runners had sent in their entry fee for this marathon, but none of them finished the race because they either got injured while training for the marathon while barefoot or got injured during the race from running barefoot.:rolleyes::cool::eek:
     
  33. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    Tim,
    What were you doing at the marathon? If you were working as a Pod at an injury clinic, then you would never see any barefoot runners as they are never injured...:D
     
  34. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Credit to this guy who did the London Marathon barefoot for UNICEF:



    BUT:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  35. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

    I was searching the web for something else and came across a "headline" that said something like "running shoes cause injury - and I have proof". I thought I better go and have a look and it was a statement from a barefoot runner. They took up barefoot running after they got a new pair of running shoes and got an injury. That was there proof!! (sorry, I did not save the webpage, so I can not now link to it)

    Now we all know that there could have been a lot of other reasons other than the shoe, but that was their logic. They then went on to say something like 'running shoes should be banned' becasue of that!

    Based on that logic, I would like to propose that the Vibram Five Fingers be banned. Look at this second met fracture that occured in someone who was running with the Vibram:
    http://www.podiatrym.com/letters2.cfm?id=34664&start=1

    If barefoot runners can make such absurd claims, why can't I?
     
  36. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    I had a meeting yesterday with the "running" columnist for the Austin newspaper, and we talked about a wide range of topics. I asked about his opinion of the barefoot running debate.

    According to the columnist, Christopher McDougall, author of Born to Run, was doing some PR event somewhere and took a run in Vibram 5 Fingers. He pulled up with a stress fracture.
     
  37. Oh now that has to hurt. And not just the foot!

    I knackered my wrist digging the garden yesterday. I was wearing shoes too! The evidence piles up!
     
  38. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    :eek:I want to hear more....
     
  39. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    This story was passed on to me by a columnist, who heard the story from someone else. I found the story interesting, but sometimes the truth gets distorted when a story is passed on through many people. If this was "first-hand" knowledge, I would have been far more interested in the story.

    I did meet Christopher McDougall at the "Running Event" trade show here in Austin. He was busy autographing copies of "Born to Run" in the Vibram 5 Fingers Booth and appeared to be very stand-offish. He was wearing a VFF on his left foot and was barefoot on his right foot. His right foot looked heavily callused and dirt encrusted. I'm sure that's not a hit with the ladies, but I guess it sells books.
     
  40. I would absolutely love it if someone could confirm the story that Chris McDougall got a stress fracture while running in Vibram FiveFingers.

    I'll be lecturing in Rome in a few days to 400 orthopedic surgeons, podiatrists, and other health care professionals on the "Biomechanics of Running" and would love to be able to provide this important information on the potential risk of running in "minimalist shoes" into my lecture on Friday.

    If it is true, will this be the start of the end of minimalist running shoe fad?
     
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