Welcome to the Podiatry Arena forums

You are currently viewing our podiatry forum as a guest which gives you limited access to view all podiatry discussions and access our other features. By joining our free global community of Podiatrists and other interested foot health care professionals you will have access to post podiatry topics (answer and ask questions), communicate privately with other members, upload content, view attachments, receive a weekly email update of new discussions, access other special features. Registered users do not get displayed the advertisements in posted messages. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our global Podiatry community today!

  1. Have you considered the Clinical Biomechanics Boot Camp Online, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Have you considered the Clinical Biomechanics Boot Camp Online, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
Dismiss Notice
Have you liked us on Facebook to get our updates? Please do. Click here for our Facebook page.
Dismiss Notice
Do you get the weekly newsletter that Podiatry Arena sends out to update everybody? If not, click here to organise this.

Is the barefoot running rebirth destroying foot biomechanics discussions ?

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by mike weber, Mar 3, 2012.


  1. Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    It seems more and more here and in other on-line areas and even emails the battle lines have been drawn.

    There is so much mud being thrown around that the discussion of the science or lack of ( on both sides ) is being forgotten.

    It had at one stage taken over the Arena, and no discussion seemed to begin or develope if it had nothing to do with taking your shoes off to go for a run.

    Some of the behind the public eye stuff is mind blowing.

    So I though a discussion re the discussion and the best way forward to get back to discussing biomechanics again.

    What say you ?
     
  2. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Re: Is the barefoot running rebirth destroying foot biomechancis discussions ?

    ...and dermatology ;)

    I`ve already stated, more than once, that I personally find the non-professional/medical posters who blatantly disregard forum rules, tiresome to say the least. The general feel to the Arena has at times fallen kinda flat. Whether the usual, valuable posters felt less compelled to post as a result of the barefoot brigade, I don`t know, but I do hope that we will see a decline in the amount of non-foothealth professionals here.

    That said, I also appreciate the `fine line` that Craig has to consider in determining whether a poster is adding value to a thread. Can`t be an easy job.

    Just my tuppence.
    Bel
     
  3. Re: Is the barefoot running rebirth destroying foot biomechancis discussions ?

    I was more thinking of medical people than those with no medical training when I started this thread
     
  4. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Re: Is the barefoot running rebirth destroying foot biomechancis discussions ?

    Oh, sorry. I`ll get my Montgomery.....:eek:
     
  5. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    Re: Is the barefoot running rebirth destroying foot biomechancis discussions ?

    Yes.

    We are seeing more and more and worse examples of:
    I now need to add to that statement something on:
    Group think mentality
    Cherry picking
    Straw man arguments
    Confirmation bias
    Cognitive bias
    Appeals to the natural fallacy
    Fallacious appeals to authority
    Anecdotal evidence and faulty logic
    Then there is the ad homenium attacks, when you point the above out.


    and lets not forget Paynes 1st law:
    It a fertile ground for teaching resources.
     
  6. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

  7. Do not worry everyone....the barefoot/minimalist running fad will soon die off....however the mysteries of foot and lower extremity biomechanics will continue to be of interest and discussion to many learned individuals for centuries to come.:drinks
     
  8. Dananberg

    Dananberg Active Member

    Kevin,

    I agree strongly with Kevin. This will be another shoe fad similar to toning shoes....it will drift off into the sunset with a small subset of hardcore barefooters keeping up the arguement.

    I saw an interesting barefoot running injury last week. It was a rupture of the long extensor tendon to the 2nd toe.....just popped while running with a midfoot strike.
    So much for safer!

    Howard
     
  9. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    There is no doubt it is becoming very tedious, and it is concerning that people like Blaise who preach the one size fits all philosophy, are hurting people.
    It is however worth remembeing that the argument has forced the athletic footwear companies to move away from complexity and focus on lightweight, which is I believe, here to stay. it has also shifted the focus of footwear researchers... Yes blaise.. We do research..away from how shoes effect vgrf, cop etc, and toward how or if the shoe geometry can effect foot function..
    A very interesting comment from sports scientist Steve Magness when askedwhat he thought the future of running footwear was..
    "I also think shoe companies should pay more attention to how the foot function changes during the stride. More research should be done based on how a shoe alters mechanics. Right now shoe companies and research looks at how shoe types change GRF or center of pressure data. Recent studies have shown that how the foot lands or the mechanics of the lower leg change both of these data sets to a much larger degree than any cushioning or shoe manipulation. What that tells me is that foot mechanics should be most important, with shoe manipulations of secondary importance. Companies should look at how there shoes change joint angles, velocities, etc .."
     
  10. Barefoot running....the animals all do it....the mechanics are very tricky....the less interface with the ground the more the abnormalities either appear or disappear....the complexities of human locomotion are so dynamic that all of the running shoes, from barefoot to Hoka One One, all help certain structural problems and imbalance others. The fascinating thing in watching runners is that the answer is so different, because of all the compensatory mechanisms that appear starting from the brain.

    The minimalist/barefoot ruuning allows a starting point to figure out what if any biomechanical problems are unique to that individual and start from there. This simplifies correction as you are not dealing with a clunky shoe yet and trying to figure out what the shoe interface is doing with the runner....intersting.
     
  11. robsobel

    robsobel Welcome New Poster

    I think the barefoot running rebirth is prompting more biomechanic discussion, at least among patients and or runners. I agree that to a certain extent it will die out, especially as runners (who are heel strikers) in their late thirties and forties try it and sustain injuries. Let's face it, you can get away with certain things in your twenties that you just can't in your thirties, forties...
     
  12. Many of the runners who were forefoot strikers already stopped running by age 40 due to chronic Achilles tendinosus....I've seen plenty of these as my patients.
     
  13. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, for what it's worth, I couldn't agree with you more. As a consumer of the products running shoe companies are coming out with now, I just don't see me as a runner, ever shifting away from lightweight shoes to what we generally had 5 or 6 years ago. Yes we had racing flats and we still have racing flats but it is the focus on lightweight trainers that has changed and as you say is here to stay. As people are discovering, many people can wear lightweight trainers and racers and remain healthy and injury free. A 7 oz trainer may not be for everyone but for those that it works for, there is no need to wear shoes twice that weight.

    Dana
     
  14. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    yup.. and here is the most important part of your quote Dana

    I cannot tell you how tiresome I now find the barefoot minimalist debate has become because every sensible person, whether runner, biomechanist, podiatrist physio etc knows that is is impossible to apply one rule to all athletes.. at either end of the argument. And this is what offends me most, that we still have people out there with strong voices who are insisting that barefoot technique is the gold standard (it is not) and that everyone, regardless of age, weight, gender, ability etc should be prefereably barefoot and if not (why not if you reallytruly believe that)? then in zero drop or near.
    I disagree.. some people, maybe many people, will do really well running this way.. others will not. It is simple, and people with an agenda or product to sell should not be pushing a singular barrow. Not the shoe companies.. not the minimalists.
    Let me once more go on record to say I believe barefoot running as a part of a balanced training program may have significant benefits and I have and will continue to recommend it in this context.
    Less structured, lightweight shoes (I hate the term minimalist) have a great application at many levels. If one wishes to race, this is the way to go. I personally believe using lightweight, flexible running shoes as a part of a balanced training program is probably protective of injury, and ceratinly should be in the tool bag of recommendations for all sports medicine practitioners, along with mixed terrain and strength work for the core and hip flexors.
    I completely buy into the cocept of lightweight, and have been saying, when asked, that the 3 most important features of running footwear are lightweight, lightweight and lightweight.
    What gives me the irrits is poorly informed people, with no idea of the process, taking a shot at running shoe companies who spend inordinate amounts of time and money trying to create product for the runner that serves as many purposes as possible. Do these peopel really think that these companies do not wish to make product as light as possible, but still remain true to ofer product to those people, and just like those who do well in minimal footwear there are many.. who NEED a more traditional type of running shoe.
    there is such a thing as manufacturing process, and what is possible technically with the materials available at a given point in time.
    Personally I can tell you that we ( the researchers) hound the developers to source new materials, new high tech polymers.. materials demonstrating non-Newtonian physical properties, piezo-responsive materials, ceramics, kevlar, high impact atennuating but super light EVa derivatives.. etc etc.

    And we are making progress.. there are some very exciting projects on the board.. but.. believe it or not Dana.. we test and retest everything we do. then we test it some more. On average we make 6-8 prototypes, over a 2 year period, for every new product we introduce.
    EACH on of these prototypes is wear tested by litearly hundreds of registered wear testers, in 3 different continents to try to prevent ethnocetric bias. Each prototype has thousands of hours of running applied to it.

    And guess what?.. if after all those prototypes, thousands of hours.. thousands of miles and millions of dollars.. if it does not shape up.. it never see the light of day.
    I have personally been on the project teams of several projects that were binned because they did not test well enough.

    if anyone is ever interested in the whole procees of what goes on, I am happy to post a summary sometime.
    So Dana meantime, enjoy what works for you.. and enjoy running.. that is what it is all about

    best

    Simon
     
  15. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, good post. With respect to running shoes, there has been so much focus on injury prevention and/or performance improvement. The assumption is that those characteristics are what are most important to the runner but that isn't completely true.

    From my perspective, the most important quality of a given running shoe is how well it rates on the fun scale!

    With respect to performance as a runner, I have been running for 40 years, I have long since accomplished what I'm going to achieve with respect to how fast I can cover a given distance on foot. At this point, I am done with worrying about shaving seconds or minutes off of my time. I don't care if a given shoe promises to make me faster than a speeding bullet, those days of caring about it are over.

    Over my running life, I have also experienced great health with respect to injury. Whether it is genetics, my training formula, my choice in running shoe for a given run, whatever. Since I don't get injured, injury prevention is not high on my list of shoe qualities.

    On the other hand, when I'm preparing to head out the door for a run, what drives my shoe selection is to put on the shoe that I believe will enhance my running experience to the fullest.

    So when running shoe companies are developing shoes, I will look for the company and the shoe that is fun to run in. It is as simple as that.

    Dana
     
  16. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Simon,

    Show me what's you or ASICS publish on peer review journal... LINK with shoes...
    And what it's really of interest here it's the link between all the technologies you put on shoes and the injury rate.

    But please don't show me again the same crap science you showed me in Austin ... that I comment here

    I'm waiting.................
     
  17. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Simon,

    Show me what's you or ASICS publish on peer review journal... LINK with shoes...
    And what it's really of interest here it's the link between all the technologies you put on shoes and the injury rate.

    But please don't show me again the same crap science you showed me in Austin ... that I comment here

    I'm waiting.................
     
  18. Bump

    it is getting worse especially on Podiatry Arena, not that it is a big deal, I used to spend hours on here - a huge amount of learning, discussion and hopefully teaching.

    In the last year , nothing in comparison - I read journal articles and every time I log on I see the same thread repeated over and over again in the area that I enjoy biomechanics

    I think it is time for a change
     
  19. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
  20. Mike:

    There is an easy solution for this. Simply start a thread asking a question that interests you and wait for a response.

    I think many of us are like you. We prefer an interesting intellectual discussion rather than fighting with the barefoot-minimalist shoe idiots all the time. However, the barefoot-minimalist shoe idiots do need to be spanked hard, every now and then, to keep them from hurting others with their nonsensical arguments. Keeping people safe and healthy takes precedence over theoretical musings any day, in my book.

    Other than that, I would love to never have another barefoot-minimalist shoe discussion for the remainder of my life.:drinks
     
Loading...

Share This Page