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adidas: BOOST; New midsole technology

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Craig Payne, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,

    I believe that Kevin has made some solid points in his reply comments on this article.

    Energy return will always be important as long as we require energy to propel.

    The next big place to look for enhanced energy return is in systems that utilize simple machines,,, such as levers with spring modulation.

    If these TPU balls are more durable and have a longer half life does that mean that they will float as footwear flotsome longer in our Not-So-Great-Pacific-Gyre??

    Mahalo,
    Steve
     
  2. I just talked to a few of the sales people at the largest running shoe store here in Sacramento. These guys are competetive runners and have tried the Adidas Boost. They said that they prefer the Hokas for shock absorption over the much-hyped Adidas Boost technology. Just a little anecdotal tidbit.

    However, Adidas seems to be spending lots of money to market this shoe..everyone in the store had "Boost" t-shirts on and there was a display with a EVA and "Boost" midsole where you could drop a steel ball on top of the midsole to see if there was any difference in the "energy return" between the two midsoles. I thought it was an unfair comparision since the "Boost" midsole was thicker than the EVA comparison midsole that you could bounce your steel balls off of.:rolleyes:
     
  3. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

  4. I went back to the same running store this morning and tried on a pair of the Adidas Boost shoes. Here are a few initial thoughts:

    First of all, they run short and narrow and the 12.5 size I tried on was too snug in the forefoot for me even though I normally wear a 12 in running shoes. I will probably need a 13 to be comfortable, which they had already sold out of.

    Secondly, though, the Adidas Boost did feel quite "springier" than any other running shoe other than the Hokas that I have ever tried on. It was an impressive amount of cushioning for a shoe that otherwise appears to have a traditional midsole thickness. I believe the Boost may become very popular with many runners due to its "springier" midsole. In other words, some of the hype surrounding the Boost shoe seems to be real.

    Third, on further inspection of the display with the steel balls that demonstrate the increase in energy return of the Boost midsole, the midsole sample of both the EVA and Boost are the same thickness in the display. In other words, I was mistaken in my earlier posting that the Boost midsole seemed thicker than the EVA in the steel ball marketing display for the Boost. I guess it was an optical illusion?
     
  5. That's Adidas for you, always been too narrow for me.
     
  6. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,

    If this new PU material is more springy what kind of support will it give an orthotic that we have posted for a desired correction?

    Will it collapse out easier or faster?

    Mahalo,
    Steve
     
  7. And I have a fairly narrow foot....the midsole technology is pretty cool though. I think that heavier runners will probably bottom the midsole material out fairly easily. Probably runners in the 100 lb to 200 lb range should be fine with this midsole, by my guess. Also, you are basically running on top of the midsole in the central heel with no board (once the sockliner is removed). I believe that this feature may give it a more "cushiony feel" in the plantar heel. We will have to wait and see how everyone does in them. Will be interesting to see how long the midsoles last and if compression-set in the midsole is a problem also.:drinks
     
  8. Weight of the shoe?
     
  9. Felt like a typical racing flat in weight, in other words, much lighter than a typical training flat but not as light as the lightest, thinnest midsole, racing flats. I don't know the exact shoe mass, though.
     
  10. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    My Running boots are springier and tougher than any and they only weight 2kg each DoH! They give me a good work out in no time.

    [​IMG]

    And I've switched off Mr King who has become very tedious and annoying but now I don't have to see his posts any more.

    Joy:D

    Regards Dave
     
  11. And then there is the recently approved Department of Defense contract #SK-693872 that approved these Skyrunner Boots for jumping over enemy walls. ;)

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  12. I'd love a pair of these, but the lack of cruciates in my right knee means my body say's: "NO"; tweaked it the other week just doing "tuck jumps" with Grace, it took a couple of days to recover. Then there was the whiplash when I went over the handlebars of my BMX 3 weeks ago- took two weeks to recover... getting old- 43 tomorrow. Body says take up a sedentary lifestyle... but I'm not old enough to play golf yet and my right shoulder is knackered from rugby anyway. Then there's the gout in my left foot...

    What sport should I take up now that I'm middle aged? Like I've got any chance of making it to 86!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  13. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Good innit. The ignore facility certainly makes me a better person, anyway.

    For tomorrow
    :drinks
     
  14. Simon:

    Happy Birthday tomorrow. You've still got 13 years to catch up to me. But the age doesn't seem to have incapacitated your mental abilities.;)

    As far as sports....I suggest curling....only real men (women) curl.....:rolleyes:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  15. Thanks Kevin. Curing looks a bit hard on the knees though. This is a bit more me (in my head):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68AoFwMCwT4

    2
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  16. phil s

    phil s Active Member

    I love podiatry arena: both educational and laugh out loud funny!
     
  17. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
    Press Release:
    Adidas Boost Technology Expands Across Segments
     
  18. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
  19. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8

    Attached Files:

  20. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Craig,

    from your statement "There is no doubt that something soft under the foot does initiate impact moderating behavior but no one has ever shown or demonstrated that there is actually anything wrong with that. All I have seen is propaganda and rhetoric with pseudoscience thrown in claiming that it does (and they usually cite some references to make their claims look legit, but if you look at the references they did actually not show that at all)."

    I was wondering if you were referring to or including the fluid technology, discussed here on other threads and its effects on biomechanics and specifically midsole technology. As part of a "pseudo-science" without validation.?
     
  21. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    nope.
     
  22. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Craig,

    Then which of the other orthotic technologies are you classifying as "pseudo-pscience" that have been published whose claims you state do not stand up to your scrutiny?
     
  23. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    Pseudoscience is a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method. ..... so any orthotic "technology", footwear "technology" that claims to be based on science when it not is pseudosceintific and woo. I an an equal opportunity woo basher - I bash all woo and pseudoscience.
    ...it all comes down to the claims being made and if they are backed by the evidence or consistent with the available evidence.
     
  24. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Craig,

    I do already know what "pseudo-science" is--I'm asking which of the orthotic technologies you have in mind are specifically categorizing as Pseudo... ?

    When I just asked if you were including "fluid technology" applied to biomechanics as a "pseodo-science" you said "nope", then that means you must regard it as a valid scientific concept--correct?
     
  25. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    Yours are probably pseudoscientific as you make claims that are not supported by the evidence. I meant 'nope' as you are hijacking a thread on running shoes. I was talking about running shoes.
     
  26. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Craig,

    Yours are probably pseudoscientific as you make claims that are not supported by the evidence. I meant 'nope' as you are hijacking a thread on running shoes. I was talking about running shoes.

    First, let me apologize for “hijacking...” I'm not at all very computer oriented, and so I just work from the page that presents itself. Since you made an off hand comment about pseud-scientific orthotics, I should think that at the very least on this site, someone can comment on your off hand comment.
    I hope that is acceptable.

    As for calling my technology pseudo-science, it's because you've been looking and disputing the “claims” made.? That's really not even important. You called the fluid technology pseudo-science and I don't recall your ever commenting on the loading technology coupled with the bio-mechanical loading of the foot. Where's your scrutiny as a professor here?
     
  27. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha Craig,

    You have placed quotes around the term "maximalise".

    Was addidas claiming to "maximalise" thier shoe or was this you adding the term for them?

    What is your definition of gait and footwear "maximalism"?Does it properly define this newly proposed foam based shoe system?

    I would be very interested to hear your definition before the term gets turned into another overused marketing slogan, please ??

    Mahalo,
    Steve
     
  28. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    If anyone keeps claiming how great a product is and does not produce the evidence, then that is pseudoscience. The 'burden of proof' lies with those making the claims.
     

    Attached Files:

  29. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    I put the terms in quotes as we have no definition or consensus of maximalism or minimalism; they are really part of a continuum. All adidas have done with this update to their shoes is to 'maximalise' it some more ... its probably debatable if they would meet everyones definition of exactly what 'maximalism' is.

    There is a delphi going on at the moment which should hopefully get published soon on what a minimalist shoe is ... while it will be a consensus of a number of key people, I not sure what is produced is going to be acceptable top all.... more on that another time.
     
  30. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    The article about fluid/biomechanics published says nothing about how great the product is. That's your perception, are you too intimidated by a biomechanics discussion, about a different technology professor? I suppose, the technology I presented is a threat to your fixed ideas.

    The real pseudo-science orthotics are based on traditional technology.
     
  31. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    And what fixed ideas might they be? Why would your idea be a threat to me? ... to accuse me of such is a play from the logical fallacies play book. Those who promote pseudoscience use a trope of logical fallacies.
     
  32. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Mahalo Craig,

    You provide a very helpful and honest answer.

    While i know you would not consult and oracle for your scientific answers i find the use of a delphi interesting.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi_method

    Could you please start a thread asking our readership what the definition of gait and footwear maximalism is or should be?

    I would have to consult an oracle to do so since i have not figured how to start a new thread on this helpful website yet. Please.

    Dennis, While i do believe that your fluid dynamic orthotic has mechanical affects
    (thank you for allowing me to personally test them) , I do not think Craig is intimidated. He just sets a high bar for solid science and research. Give him a little slack and get more reliable research done.

    Mahalo,
    Steve
     
  33. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    You are not very computer orientated Dennis?? But your whole current practice and business model is purely internet based. If I went to see a surgeon who "wasn't very theatre orientated" that would be a wee red flag for me...

    "Hello is that the kettle? Yep, hi, it's the pot calling here. I just wanted to tell you that I think you are black..."

    Dennis I understand that every circus needs a clown but you're embarrassing yourself here. I have looked up to Craig for over a decade. One of his most enviable traits, as I'm sure others here will agree, is his ability to question (his own practice as well as others). Telling him he has fixed ideas is about as wrong as anyone can be - he is constantly critically evaluating the latest evidence. Some may change the rationale for doing something they have always done in the face of conflicting evidence and others may make up excuses for continuing to do that thing in the face of conflicting evidence, but I do not know of any single member of this community that would be willing to actually change their practice based on new evidence more than Craig would.

    A good example of someone fixed in their ways, FYI, would be an individual who, lets say, has done he same thing for over 20 years (because they "know it works") and has not read any evidence to the contrary by virtue of having not read anything other than The Beano. Such an individual may look to promote their product at every available opportunity even in discussions where the focus of the conversation really has nothing to do with it. Keep an eye out for that - they are tricky to spot but I promise you they are amongst us.
     
  34. Good one, Ian, but you aren't being blunt enough for this man.

    Dennis, look in the mirror to see the one who is a legend only in his own mind.
     
  35. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Craig,

    You're actually saying hydro-dynamic technology is a "pseudo-science", wow
    and you're sticking with that? Well, I can't say anymore to that.
     
  36. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Steve,

    I do not think Craig is intimidated. He just sets a high bar for solid science and research. Give him a little slack and get more reliable research done.

    A “professor” of life and all things, doesn't just wait for the research. He creates, imagines and instigates new things, out of the box.

    Having a legitimate discussion about the biomechanics, (not taken from a non-scientific web site for lay people) is done all the time here. The research may not have been done according to Hoyle, but the “science” is solid. He wasn't the only one intimidated to discuss it.
     
  37. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,

    Ian,

    I think we are all guilty of rigid thinking at times.

    "Hello is that the kettle? Yep, hi, it's the pot calling here. I just wanted to tell you that I think you are black..."

    Ask this question to yourself out loud if you can...

    "Am I a good example of someone fixed in their ways?"

    FYI, would be an individual who, lets say, has done he same thing for over 20 years (because they "know it works") and has not read any evidence to the contrary by virtue of having not read anything other than"

    Why are you stuck on foam ?

    Mahalo,
    Steve
     
  38. Dennis Kiper

    Dennis Kiper Well-Known Member

    Ian,

    I think you're a weee bit afraid of a lot of things. Buck up, be a man, get over it.
     
  39. J.R. Dobbs

    J.R. Dobbs Active Member

    Yes, "buck up, be a man, get over it" and buy your liquid filled insoles from here http://www.healthandcare.co.uk/gel-insoles/243832.html?gclid=CP-zwaHdqb4CFXLJtAodqi4Atg At only £27.99 including vat you can buy insoles which are "clinically proven to reduce peak pressure on the soles of the feet (the main cause of foot ulcers) by 21%." Don't buy these from Dennis Kiper as he charges an outrageous amount for his fluid insoles, if you go direct to the Chinese manufacturers you can get them wholesale for much less than £27.99 including VAT and you could then start selling them over the internet, just like Dennis does, except you can under-cut him. Buck up, be a man, do away with your clinical ethics, dignity and self-respect and start your own internet business selling fluid filled insoles. Remember at all times: "A new sale dawns".

    Adidas, what do they know about designing running shoes? Stick with Steve "Naive" King, he knows far more about shoe design than a company full of people who've been in the game for years- he's your man, he invented modern composites you know. Nobody had ever made carbon fiber insoles before the boy "naive" came along, and nobody else but his company are making them to this day. Kingitics- they're absolutely the most knife resistant insoles you can buy, pretty useful when your out running in a National Park. You know it makes sense.

    Join the Church of the Sub-Genius today and receive guaranteed increases in sales, once your direct debit has been established.
     
  40. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Literally no idea what you are talking about Steve. Feel free to elaborate...
     
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