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The UK needs a united professional body

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Simon Spooner, Jul 20, 2012.

?

The podiatry profession within the UK would be best represented by:

  1. A single, united professional body

    29 vote(s)
    74.4%
  2. A number of disparate professional body's

    10 vote(s)
    25.6%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. R.E.G

    R.E.G Active Member

    Mark,David,

    I have given your proposals some thought. Mark your proposal is not new and neither is mine. I look on yours as 'thinking outside the box' where mine is 'inside the box'.

    Many of the elements required for success require the same 'activation' of the participants, hence based on past performance, I believe both proposals are flawed.

    Anyway here is mine.

    The Society despite all of it's baggage does have the best infrastructure of all of the bodies. It also has the largest membership and is financially viable.

    However as a membership organization it is vulnerable to a membership rebellion.

    When it opened it's doors unconditionally to any HPC registrant it made itself potentially even more vulnerable.

    So, and here is the flaw, if you could persuade all HPC members to join the Society then the proportion of PPs to NHS would change from the present 50:50 to 70:30. In 3 years the composition of Council could be completely changed, the executive could be bought into line and a new future planned.

    You could even change the name.

    Bob
     
  2. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Bob,

    Logically (and suprisingly for me to be agreeing) this does seem the way forward except for one thing.

    The SCP has a long history of maintaining the status quo, and suppressing anything and everything within the profession which threatened the status quo, whether it would benefit the development of Podiatry within the UK or not.

    This includes and has included in the past:
    Those pesky FHPs. We can't control them, but we can bad-mouth them.
    Those pesky grandparented (although hang-on..... we may be able to make some money there - let's find a mailing list and do a mailshot to them).
    Those who wanted to administer local analgesia.
    Those who wanted to administer local analgesia above 1% plain.
    Those who wanted to train and carry out bone surgery.

    Those who wanted to form a breakaway group - they did BTW, with ease. the PA.

    I remain very skeptical about the ability of the SCP to change. You mention membership rebellion. No rebellion has ever taken place. I don't believe it can.
     
  3. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    davidh

    Absolutely right. Speak to most Society executive/committee member and they seem quite reasonable. However individuals don't make the decisions, it's the 'collective mind' of the Society and that firmly encourages self-preservation, allowing individuals to ride rough shod over the membership.

    It would take a number of like minded individuals with enthusiasm to form a meaningful alternative, it has been done ie. the Podiatry Association. Can it happen again ? I don't see the collective enthusiasm that's needed. Maybe surgery could do it, maybe biomechanics etc etc, but the fear of going out on a limb is uncomfortable.

    It's worth remembering that when first formed a requirement of the PA was that you were a member of the Society. That didn't last long as the 'collective mind' did all it could to scupper progress !
     
  4. Elizabeth Humble-Thomas

    Elizabeth Humble-Thomas Active Member

    Thank you kind sir!
    Problem is, it is not in Scholls interest to direct patients to us, as their profits come from self treating products.
    Also, toothpaste is manufactured by giant companies with enormous budgets. It is hard to think of a really wealthy company who would want to endorse foot health.
     
  5. R.E.G

    R.E.G Active Member

    OK weather is too good I do not work on Fridays and I need to tend my farm but.

    Bob,

    Logically (and suprisingly for me to be agreeing) this does seem the way forward except for one thing.

    The SCP has a long history of maintaining the status quo, and suppressing anything and everything within the profession which threatened the status quo, whether it would benefit the development of Podiatry within the UK or not.

    Agreed, so what you can be damn sure they would react to Marks proposal.


    Those pesky FHPs. We can't control them, but we can bad-mouth them.


    Marks nor your ideas address FHPs, my proposal does help the situation, if all HPC were under one roof then the other bodies could concentrate on promoting FHPs?

    Those pesky grandparented (although hang-on..... we may be able to make some money there - let's find a mailing list and do a mailshot to them).

    One way of looking at it but he ho it did not work but left the door open for attack, stop looking backward.


    Those who wanted to administer local analgesia.

    And a determined group of members defeated Council learn the lesson it can be done.

    Those who wanted to administer local analgesia above 1% plain.

    Same point but now they have a medicine committee who I'm sure were very significant in achieving proscribing rights, Bill?


    Those who wanted to train and carry out bone surgery.

    Again the members won the day.


    Those who wanted to train and carry out bone surgery.


    Again the members won the day.

    As they dis with the name change.


    I remain very skeptical about the ability of the SCP to change.

    But are you just as sceptical about the ability of the membership to change it?

    You mention membership rebellion. No rebellion has ever taken place.

    Except those you just sited.

    I don't believe it can.

    I nearly did it but was scuttled at the last minute by a colleague who realised that if my plan had gone through when she finally realised her personal ambition of being chair her power would have been drastically reduced. I walked, cannot deal with such people and quite frankly it was not going to make a difference to my life.

    But the mechanisms are still there just needs the right people to do it.

    Who are the right people?

    Bob

    __________________
     
  6. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    As I remember the PA were totally uncompromising in their membershio requirements.
    Not only was Society membership a requirement. One also had to be three-year trained.
    Those who were trained over two years (as the chiropody course leading up to state registration was before 1960) were not eligible, neither were grandparented.
    No quibbles, no arguments. You want to join?
    Go and do a three-year course.

    I think there probably are a nucleus of UK Pods who could carry this forward. I wonder if we could resurrect the PA?
     
  7. R.E.G

    R.E.G Active Member

    So Elizabeth what exactly was the point of your post, except to tell us 'boys' to grow up?
     
  8. Elizabeth Humble-Thomas

    Elizabeth Humble-Thomas Active Member

    Thank you kind sir!
    the problem is that it is not in Scholls interest to promote our profession, as their profits depend on patients self treating.
    Toothpaste is made by multinational companies with enormous budgets. It is hard to see a similar investment being made by a foot care, or even shoe manufacturing company.
     
  9. It begs the question, why hasn't the Society done it before? I don't presume to have great foresight - I am sure most colleagues have thought the same at some time during their career. Simon was correct, if direct, with his question to Bill regarding being in a position to effect change. I was too. And I agree and encourage colleagues to question those in a position of influence what they are doing to progress the profession. But it is more difficult than you might think - the problem is deep rooted in the operational mindset - with its history and experiences in trade unionism, management, memberservices and journals - its focus has been inwards and remains so. It has no commercial experience or business strategy - for the profession - whatsoever. Could it change direction? Possibly - with the concerted effort and will of dedicated people as stated by others. But it would take time. And that is the problem.

    I spent a couple of hours at the weekend at the Open watching Adam Scott fall to pieces, with a former tory health minister who I met and got to know quite well when I was on Council. He was quite candid about the future. One thing is certain - I'm sure glad I don't work in the NHS.

    The organisation is the biggest employer and drain on the public purse. With the UK debt increasing and growth falling towards a fiscal collapse, the burden of responsibility for health spending will fall to the commercial sector. We can't afford the NHS. In his view, there will probably be a phased contraction, initially to A&E and Trauma and specialist centres for specified disorders. But podiatry and other allied health professions will be the first on the chopping block. That includes the schools. It is something that I heard about a few months ago in Scotland so it was interesting to hear it from another source. If you consider the bigger picture, it probably makes sense. Whether that is policy planning, discussion or just rumour and political gossip, I don't know, but I think there will be challenging times ahead whatever the outcome of the health review. The question the Society - indeed the profession - needs to consider, urgently, is - what is Plan B?

    Something I note you didn't adress yourself.
     
  10. Would you include yourself in this group?
     
  11. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Mark

    Changes are happening already.

    I have had 5 new grads in the last month or two ringing me for "a job or to shadow me or anything to give them work experience"

    I have also been informed a Pod school in London has told the students "there will be no jobs in the NHS when they qualify and their last year will now consist of teaching them how to set up and run a private practice.

    Another glimpse of the future perhaps ?
    Cheers
    D;)
     
  12. Clearly the local brew is much more potent further west. Coming down to Plymouth later in the year for a gig. Will be seeking some recommendations for local attractions....!
     
  13. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Bob,

    There was no debate within the Society.
    They didn't agree willingly about LA, LA over 1%, nail surgery, or bone surgery. They were totally bypassed on each point - agreements, including insurance for administering LA were already made, and then they had to agree or start losing members.

    They did try very hard to limit LA to 1% Lignocaine after the event, but by then we were all using 3% Scandonest and since there is no data to show that 3% mepivacaine is any less safe than 1% lignocaine they didn't really have a leg to stand on.
    Of course the real reason they wanted to limit the strengths wasn't anything to do with safety. It was so that we (the profession) would be confined to skin and a bit of nail surgery.

    I have personal experience of LA training standards dropping markedly once the Society took over LA training. I trained with the Institute under the auspices of Ben (can't remember his second name - good bloke though - Chief Chiropodist, Hartlepool) and two Anaesthetists. Most of the grandparented failed Part A (Theory) and that was that. Three-year trained, and those who passed Part A went on to Part B - a week-long Theory and practical Course with another exam at the end of it.
    My business partner trained with his local SCP Branch. He couldn't even give a decent digital block at the end of it.
    I also remember an LA course being run at the Durham School - certs being handed out as (and in some cases, before) the injections were being administered.
    I think there are posts on this forum where newly qualified have not carried out a nail procedure or given more than one or two LA's............

    Finally you have to ask, given that the membership is composed of 50% NHS workers, what exactly is the SCP doing to safeguard the jobs of those Pods working in the NHS?
     
  14. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    [Mark

    I have edited as far as I can,But anyone with an attitude such is displayed against certain sections of the registered sector and is well documented with those thoughts cant be right. It will only cause division more than we have now and take a big step backwards IMHO . I do still have an opinion and will express it.

    There For you I have modified the post





    Just my thoughts

    Cheers
    D;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  15. Please delete that last post, Derek. Biggotted is the content of some of the emails you occassionally forward on - especially those targetting the minority communities. I have never met rosherville but respect his considered answers, cynicism and all. I'll leave it to you whether you should consider an apology. Seriously, I said before I was happy to contribute but only if you leave the crap at home. I certainly don't want to spend time languishing in the ordure. Have a good weekend.
     
  16. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    Mark

    'Would you include yourself in this group' ?

    Certainly. And I know there are a number enthiastic within the Society but I doubt they are now inclined to leave their comfort zone. The old guard have resigned themselves, sadly, to an 'I`m alright Jack' attitude; accepting that the young bloods who have inherited the fruits will not maintain them.

    davidh

    'As I remember the PA were totally uncompromising in their membership requirements'.

    Would not have worked any other way

    'There was no debate within the Society. They were totally bypassed on each point'

    Correct. After it had all happened they tried to take over.

    At that point I left the Society only rejoining with amalgamation 20+ years later. I doubted the wisdom of the move but was willing to give it a try, after 3 years It was clear nothing had changed, I left again and have enjoyed life much more and can honestly say that career wise I made the right decision.
     
  17. R.E.G

    R.E.G Active Member

    Del,

    What on earth are you on about?

    David back to history and may I suggest defeatism?

    Mark the main attraction in Plymouth are the local girls! Oh and the sailors.

    For beer you need to cross the county line.

    Of course it begs the question.

    Ex Tory minister, why ex? Candid? Politician? Naive?

    Plan B, are difficult question as as yet I do not recognise any Plan A.

    The Society are proud to describe themselves as pragmatic, I believe they should be proactive, my simple Plan A.

    Finally I was head hunted by the PA, before the Camden accord, Ralph G was chair, he then became chair of the Society and presided over the conversion to the HPC. Remember that I know rosherville does.

    Lets move on history is interesting but the future is the task.
     
  18. What, if anything, would force a catalyst for change? It isn't exactly an exciting prospect - what professional future?
     
  19. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    That Mark is bang out of order, if you want to bring things into this arena which are on a personal level and nothing to do with podiatry and I would remind you that YOU asked for then, I am at a loss.

    I dont apologise to Trolls to start with because there is no one to apologise too they are a non person.

    Secondly anyone that snipes at me from the sidelines with a pompous attitude will I'm afraid eventually get told his fortune.

    And his attempts to make pods like me second class all over again...yeah righto Mark they are all my best friend of course :rolleyes:

    I modified the post as you requested please dont request that ever again I have an opinion even if you and others dont agree with it.

    To say I'm dissapointed Mark is an understatement I thought we had moved on. Obviously not
    D:mad:
     
  20. What a great pity they didn't catch you.
     
  21. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    Mark

    'What, if anything, would force a catalyst for change'?


    Not all that we wish is likely

    'It isn't exactly an exciting prospect - what professional future'?

    Yep
     
  22. Derek - I didn't ask the question of you - yet you interrupted the conversation with your negative opinion of the colleague I was addressing. Perhaps you might consider it bad etiquette and it seems to happen a lot when you and some others contribute. How can you promote a concept of unity when you speak like that?

    Just my opinion, of course.
     
  23. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Sorry Duplicated post
     
  24. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    R.E.G

    'Finally I was head hunted by the PA, before the Camden accord, Ralph G was chair'

    I don`t recall that he was !

    'he then became chair of the Society and presided over the conversion to the HPC. Remember that I know rosherville does'.

    Was it not Pam Sabine ?

    Ah, the mists of time.
     
  25. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Hello Mark

    As I mentioned previously, I am not going to further take part in this thread.

    However, per yours, I need to explain again that I can only speak for myself. I do not, cannot, would not and must not speak in any official position. I am sure that our posters can understand why that is, but suffice it to say that, as is well known, I have worked long and hard on the progress of the profession and therefore am interested in all rational arguments. I am happy to reiterate my own view that the way forward is by consensus rather than confrontation. Any attempt at 'take-over' by any individual body is doomed to failure. In my view, it is therefore better to create a single central body in which discussion of mutual interests can openly take place, agreements made which can be made, and areas of disagreement put aside for another day. In time it is entirely possible that such a body could become a single representative body. The big problem is that, again, as I previously mentioned, the 'General Podiatry Council' was accepted by the 3 major bodies. One body then dropped out with the result that there now exists no trust between them and this will be very difficult, if not impossible, to overcome, certainly in the short term.

    This post was for information only and really is my last post on this subject for the present.

    All the best

    Bill
     
  26. Exactly, and the rational conclusion to your argument is that there must be one new body with no links to the previous organisations. I don't think there should be anything to negotiate! Ok I respect your position, Bill, but what future would you promote given all the present circumstances - if you were starting with a clean sheet and no limits to your imagination?

    Best wishes
     
  27. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Bob,

    I posted merely to remind people that this is the SCP's rather less than glowing track record.

    More recently they were also a leading light in the inception of the HPC.

    Mark's reply to you being headhunted by the PA was very funny I thought:D.
     
  28. C.Sayegh

    C.Sayegh Welcome New Poster

    DavidH,

    "I also remember an LA course being run at the Durham School - certs being handed out as (and in some cases, before) the injections were being administered."

    If that is true, I find it at best shocking, at worst disgusting!



    "I think there are posts on this forum where newly qualified have not carried out a nail procedure or given more than one or two LA's............"

    I qualified from Northampton 10 years ago. We HAD to have given at leat 5 LAs and done 5 nail surgeries to qualify. Our clinical log books were checked by the external examiner before we finished! If the above is true, it's both disgusting and very worrying!



    Charles Sayegh
     
  29. Catfoot

    Catfoot Well-Known Member

    DH,
    May suggest you remove the following from your post of 27th July 2012 ?

    I am sure he would not like to hear your allegations of incompetence.

    Catfoot
     
  30. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Funny CF , I must have missed that "allegation" but as it has re-appeared as I have re read the correct post:eek: , I agree perhaps David you could delete your post in the spirit of harmony and unity?
    Cheers
    D;)
     
  31. Catfoot

    Catfoot Well-Known Member

    No, DTT,
    It's actually still there.

    DH post 27th July 12 11.15 am para 3

    regards

    Catfoot
     
  32. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    DTT

    No it's still there.

    Catfoot

    'I'm sure he wouldn't like to hear your allegations of incompetence

    It's no such thing, Simply a comment suggesting a poor quality course.
    No doubt he sought instruction elsewhere.
    Have you never bought something sub standard and then searched for better ?
     
  33. George Brandy

    George Brandy Active Member

    Especially for Derek and I must absolutely thank you for the laughter you have brought to my life throughout this entire thread. I bless you entirely...

    GB
     
  34. Catfoot

    Catfoot Well-Known Member

    Rosherville,

    OK, whatever you say.

    As I don't like talking about those who are not present and as I know the chap concerned I'll suggest he takes a look and then he can make his own mind up. ;)

    regards

    Catfoot
     
  35. Kaleidoscope

    Kaleidoscope Active Member

    This topic came up on TFS also, it seems to be doing the rounds.

    I graduated last year and all in my year HAD to prove that they had personally carried out more than 5 LA's - for both PNA and some TNAs, as it was signed off in our books and graded and checked. I was lucky enough to have done at least 12, but I doubt that is abnormal.

    It is wrong to suggest that ALL new grads are leaving Uni without sufficient training in giving LA and carrying out nail surgery! Although I cannot speak for all the other schools, Im sure we were not the only ones who had to do this?

    I wonder where this mis-information is emanating from, and why?
     
  36. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Thanks for your concern but I'm sure he would be the first to agree.
    Actually by the time we had our surgery ready for that kind of work we were both very much out of practice and spent some time practicing digital blocks on each other.
     
  37. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Unless it's me that's out of the room evidently.....

    It was 37 years ago - so you can be sure to be accurate as to the date when you remind him. Give him my best wishes also. As per my previous post, we both worked hard to ensure that our technique was good before we actually started injecting at the Practice. While you're at it ask him about the top-up course he did at Durham a few years ago, when the certs were being given out before the course had finished, and in several cases before injections had been given.

    I'm sure he'll ring me if he's at all bothered.
     
  38. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Anyway - I'm out of this thread. It is going the way of every other UK podo-political thread, and really - I'd rather be walking the lurcher, or fishing.

    I've been in the profession since I qualified aged 21. 41 years on I can state that I've very much enjoyed my working life as a Pod. I'm also happy that I've contributed to UK Podiatry in my own small way.

    I was very pleased to be able to provide proof of sorts that Mepivacaine plain is not a vasoconstrictor (except in the spinal column of rats), at a time when some UK chiropody literature, and one UK chiropody textbook in particular was still saying it was. The Soc published that so thanks to them.

    The Circadian Variation paper by Profs Unsworth, Hiscock et al (I don't have the ref but you can find it with Google easily enough) demonstrated pretty conclusively that circadian variation was responsible for changes in joint ROM, and therefore taking measurements and relying on them for accurate prescription-writing cannot really work. Prof Hiscock was (maybe still is) on the Ed Committee of the Soc magazine. He's a Rheumatologist.
    I did my own small experiment on this as part of my MSc and SMAE were kind enough to publish.

    I did a paper on ComCare (pilot NHS chiropody project in Jarrow) which the Soc were also kind enough to publish. It showed how a single-handed chiropodist could run a busy NHS clinic quite effectively. I think at one point the ComCare clinic was treating as many patients in a week as the whole chiropody department of South Tyneside (they weren't terribly pleased about that:D). We also ran a nail-cutting service. They weren't very happy about that either:D.

    Back on topic I believe that a new body is needed to steer the profession.
    If anything comes of this, and I can be of any help, please ring me (Mark - you have my number) or PM me.
     
  39. . I think it is worthwhile posting Simon's original question before this thread degenerates into the usual mire of insult and antagonism. Rather than engaging the lowest common denominator approach - why not consider the question and support the conclusion with your own proposal or suggestion? Would be good to hear the views if some of the long-toothed statesmen - wdd and toeslayer perhaps - or if someone has the email or contact details for Alison Wishart please PM to me and I shall invite her to give the Society view.....
     
  40. We have to observe 6 good LA's with minimal instruction to pass a student.

    Personnally I believe there should also be a negatively Marked practical exam. 6 good LA's is not reassuring if it's out of 37 bad ones!!
     
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