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Professional Indemnity Insurance

Discussion in 'Australia' started by Cameron, Jun 2, 2015.

  1. APodC

    APodC Active Member

    All podiatrists in Australia are the beneficiary of much of our work. When I'm in Canberra as APodC CEO fighting to protect $163mil of Medicare rebates (nearly as much as every other profession combined), it's paid for by members. When we're sitting at the table trying to convince the health minister of the importance of podiatry - members. When people refer for diagnostic imaging - members. Prescribing in QLD and ACT just in the last 18 months - members. Evaluating insurance proposals and starting a price war on PI insurance - members. The APodC's time to follow up and work with IH to get the extra cover - members paid.

    Members of the association take on the financial cost of progressing many things that non members just expect to benefit from or even worse, some non members seek to openly criticise the APodC at any opportunity. Association members take responsibility for the future of the profession by contributing, just as previous generations did to get it to where it is today.

    We're pretty open and we don't mind the fact that not everyone wants to be a member. Most non members are potential members after all. However we think it's entirely fair that members benefit from our work given how much they contribute to the profession.
     
  2. Simone Lee

    Simone Lee Active Member

    fair enough
     
  3. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    Perhaps the APODC needs to review its funding model.

    I do not know any pods locally who are members of APODA.
    The reason for this is simple, the only time we would hear from them was when membership was due. Emails would go unanswered when we needed help or information.

    Membership costs plus the Guild kickback represents a lot of money. For what.

    We hear of about lots of things that are being done, but we never hear of any success with these projects.

    Most businesses do a cost benefit on every $ spent to determine the return on investment.
     
  4. APodC

    APodC Active Member

    Hi Trevor,

    If having us in Canberra fighting for things like maintaining $163mil a year flowing from the commonwealth into supporting access for podiatry patients isn't enough, I've a feeling I'm not going to be able to convince you to rejoin; and that's OK. We fought to protect prescribing for podiatrists in 2013 when the AMA was adamant that it should be removed. We told people afterwards but in the main it went unnoticed, because nothing changed. It was the same with the campaign to stop the tax deductible education cap which we along with other associations stopped last year. So thank us for that tax deductible conference if you're heading overseas any time soon.

    Much of our work is like that in that if we've done our job, podiatrists don't lose out to those who argue they can use tax dollars better than we can. Add up what that might cost the average podiatrist just on Medicare alone:
    4100 registered podiatrists.
    80% private practice = 3280 in private practice.
    $163mil / 3280 practitioners = $49,695 per annum. We could add another $9,000 for DVA.
    An estimated 7% drop in funding as a result of price freezes over coming years that we're fighting to get dropped = $3478 per annum (plus $630 for DVA) in reduced funding per podiatrist.
    Membership after tax deductibility (assume company tax rate 32% and GST) = $612 per annum. I've seen podiatrists who'd drop that on a couple of nights out, the results of which gets flushed down the toilet the next day. That's before we talk about things like the 30% private health insurance rebate, red tape reduction and a raft of other things we work on. I think the business case is pretty good myself.

    Believe it or not, we do all this on about a third of what Chiropractors pay to fund their national body. It's costly to advocate for small professions but even more costly not to advocate for our profession. If we hadn't been advocating over the last 50 years, podiatry certainly wouldn't be what it is today.

    In the last few years, a lot's changed. We've got a committed group of talented staff and committed podiatrists (that give up their personal time for free) who are working on building a better organisation for the profession. There's generally better cooperation around the country than we've ever had before and we're more focused on members. We've still got a long way to go but we really do thank those podiatrists that get behind us as we build.

    There's no Guild "kickback" any more so you've saved that thanks to us.
     
  5. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    Well just to clarify - your ranks and alot of your work is actually done by Board members, Directors and Podiatrists who openly volunteer their time for projects unpaid. Oh and they in turn pay to be a member and to have that privilege!

    Well yes - and its your job - and you are paid for it.

    No one is doubting what is being achieved here - take into consideration of what I said above though (ie alot of the work is done by members who are unpaid and volunteer their time away from their clinics, families etc....) But lets not discount possibly the greatest work which no one hears of. The academics who aren't members who push the profession along, the public health Podiatrists who aren't members who liaise day in and day out with other professionals who by in large on their own have driven this profession to the position it is currently in, the special interest groups, the Podiatric Surgeons, the other health professions who have helped Podiatry over the years and who have arguably laid the important groundwork for us to build upon. All UNPAID.

    The door swings both ways - its just one side of it likes to take all the credit for all the positives.....

    Well to be honest when the criticism is warranted....maybe if there was more positives to discuss? Criticism isn't always negative - its constructive.

    Its not an US and THEM scenario. No one would argue that individual state associations and the APodC have done some good work over the years - but its a bit rich to say its only the association and its members who take responsibility by contributing (is paying fees every year classed as "contributing"?).

    Heck I remember working for the Association and talking to a very prominent Government ministers aid about S4 drug rights in NSW. I asked him at a function one night what exactly was the catalyst: The answer? Not the Associations, not APodC - but one member, talking to the right person, persistently for a very long time! I've heard similar stories from other states around Australia about important issues. Its the people within the profession that drive change - not the organization itself. I can also recount numerous things that "organizations" have interrupted, held up or even plainly blocked. Many of them put the profession on the back foot numerous times.

    Nationalization was one of them!

    As you shouldn't - but openly making moves to disadvantage non members.....

    ......isn't a good way to get them to join up and become members is it?

    I keep hearing the tag line "the organization" is for the members - and I so dearly want to believe that, but just last week I was speaking to an Australian Podiatrist who had no help from their "organization" over a very serious matter! They felt completely alienated, and in the position they were in rightly so. In the end their "organization" left them out in the cold and to top it all off they advised them to resign as a member! Now i'm taking for granted this story is truthful, however I have no reason to believe it wouldn't be. How is it all about that member? What do we have professional organisations for if they aren't to assist and represent members. Apparently the organization was quite happy to take the members money for the last 20 or so years but when the going got tough, the organization got going!

    Service for the member?

    I bet every Non Member could tell you exactly why they choose not to be. I bet every member can't tell you why they are!
     
  6. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    Paul, did you see the Trade Practices Act that I posted at the top of the page.
     
  7. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    I also spoke to Guild yesterday Trevor - they said yes it is a "grey area" and its not that it is or isn't covered its based on prior circumstances of the claim being made. They are getting some more info for me.

    I have to say - in all the years of being insured with Guild they have been excellent in their customer service and more than willing to chase information when I have asked a question. Plus 18 months for the price of 12 currently? Bargain!
     
  8. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Thanks Paul please advise us what Guild comes back with
     
  9. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    Paul, I would also like to know what Guild are doing for you.
    if you could please post, thanks
     
  10. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    I have been in contact with Guild, AON and Insurance House regarding alleged sexual misconduct.
    They have all now responded.

    AON. YES.
    Included in policy.

    Guild , NO
    Not Included in policy.

    Insurance House. NO

    Not Included in policy.

    Here is a cut and paste from their emails.

    Guild.
    "Our Underwriters have delved deeply into our Policy Wording, and unfortunately Sexual Molestation would not be covered by our product at this time"

    AON.
    "In relation to sexual molestation defence your Aon policy has always covered Sexual misconduct. Please find attached the new Policy wording for Health practitioners. Please refer to page 10,section 6.9 for cover in relation to this.
    The AON health practitioners policy has always and continues to be compliant with the Australian Registration Board standards. If you check the APRA website as attached the podiatry board standards are listed . I note that the Australian podiatry Association is not the governing board of these standards.
    The Apod A offer is an extra cost on top of your membership fee, therefore not free. In response to their offer and because we highly regard our practitioners we have Increased our Level of Indemnity to 20 million across the board to come into Line with the Apod Offer. I note the standard is only 5 million. We have also decreased our premium price to match their offer. APOD policy is a master policy which means all Practioners are covered under the one policy and generally share a limit of indemnity. We only offer individual cover and individual limits."

    Insurance House.

    "We are not able to assist"
    "we cannot add the molestation extension"
     
  11. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    The AHPRA site has this about professional indeminity.
    "Definitions
    Professional indemnity insurance arrangements means arrangements that secure for the practitioner insurance against civil liability incurred by, or loss arising from, a claim that is made as a result of a negligent act, error or omission in the conduct of the practitioner. This type of insurance is available to practitioners and organisations across a range of industries and covers the costs and expenses of defending a legal claim, as well as any damages payable. Some government organisations, under policies of the owning government, are self-insured for the same range of matters."

    Perhaps we need to obtain legal advice.
    Without cover for alleged sexual misconduct does an insurance policy meet the AHPRA requirements?
     
  12. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    From AON: "APOD policy is a master policy which means all Practioners are covered under the one policy and generally share a limit of indemnity. We only offer individual cover and individual limits."

    Ouch!

    Hope that is a large "limit of indemnity".
     
  13. APodC

    APodC Active Member

    AON avoid being misleading by adding the term 'generally'. A combined limit doesn't apply under the APodC policy (each pod has their own limit).

    There's a bit of misinformation being passed around at the moment so I suggest people contact Insurance House and check anything you're told by another insurer.
     
  14. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    One for APODC.
    What is AHPRAs ruling on the matter?
    Do the various Podiatry Indemnity policies offered meet the statutory requirements?
     
  15. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    So what is each Podiatrist under the APodC Master Policy each covered for?
     
  16. APodC

    APodC Active Member

    Each practitioner gets their own full coverage. So for PI, PL or disciplinary hearings it's $20mil. Where there are other limits, each practitioner receives that limit.

    Also, from insurance house's FAQ's:
    Is this cover compliant with the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency (AHPRA) insurance requirements?
    Yes. We know as a Podiatrist you can not trade without being registered and your registration requires you to maintain a compliant policy. We are pleased to confirm the APodC policy meets and exceeds all the insurance requirements set by AHPRA
     
  17. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    OK,
    The question still remains about the policy offered by Guild that APODC was up until recently receiving commissions for.
    Does it or did it meet the statutory requirements of AHPRA.
     
  18. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Thanks so much Trevor for your time in investigating this on behalf of us all. I am concerned as my current policy is with Guild. That is an excellent question - did and/or does the Guild policy meet the statutory requirements?
     
  19. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    I still do not have a written response from Guild on this - very disappointing! Hopefully they are reading this thread. Verbally on the phone they did confirm it was a "grey" area which is probably how it does satisfy AHPRA requirements....would be good to get a firm answer.

    APodC used Guild as its preferred provider for years! It allowed Guild to promote and advertise at all its conferences. It recommended Guild to its members. Suddenly APodC change providers and all of a sudden their new provider: "policy meets and exceeds all the insurance requirements set by AHPRA" - are they saying they were aware their previous providers didn't?

    Coincidence?
     
  20. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    Paul,
    I asked all my questions of Guild via email. The person I was dealing with tried very hard to be helpful and provided a quick turnaround to new questions I asked when I received each answer from him.
    He knew that there were many people asking the questions that I asked and tried very had to get the answer we wanted from their underwriters.
    Alas it was not the answer that we all wanted.
    Both Guild and AON were very helpful.
    This is a very busy time for them as everyone is wanting to renew policies.

    I also looked at the AHPRA medical site The doctors PII definition is, to me, the same as the podiatry one with one exception. They have a clause that their PII insurers must be approved by their AHPRA board. This is obvious as to why, now.
    Hindsight is a good thing
     
  21. Pod66

    Pod66 Member

    This is a question for the our regulating body -Podiatry board of Australia- they could be asked to define the extent and depth of cover required as a minimum. We still need to consider how risk inclined 'podiatry' practice is.
     
  22. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Ok thanks Trevor and Paul. - Do either of you (or anyone else) have any experience in dealing with AON as a PI insurer?

    Has anyone had the experience of having to deal with AON or their solicitors in the event of claim advice ??? What was the experience like? Does anyone know which firm of solicitors AON uses??

    As I am not an association member I am unable to access the extended coverage that the APODC has had written into their Insurance House master policy for allegations of sexual misconduct, so I am now seriously considering changing from Guild to AON. - I would be most grateful of people's experiences with AON...?
     
  23. Simone Lee

    Simone Lee Active Member

    the AAMT recommends AON and the remedial massage industry is most at risk for this kind of allegations. Apparently they are pretty good according to massage therapist's. they also openly say they cover for sexual allegations.
     
  24. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    After reviewing all of the information here, especially the information kindly provided by Trevor, I have decided to transfer my insurance from Guild to AON.
     
  25. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

  26. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

  27. Simone Lee

    Simone Lee Active Member

    it says the police will allege... unfortunately its in the news and regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent, his name is mud
     
  28. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Agreed. Also, if someone is charged with an allegation like this, is it the case that the practitioner would be immediately suspended from practising by AHPRA pending a police investigation?
    That's quite scary if it is the case, as no money would be coming in.
     
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