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95 years old..wants to die

Discussion in 'General Issues and Discussion Forum' started by footdrcb, Mar 28, 2011.

  1. In the good old days when someone confessed to hearing voices in their head with messages from god or Jesus or whatever other supernaturnal figure, they were treated kindly, fitted with a new jacket, given some medication and taken away to a nice secure facility out of harm's way. These days well, I guess we just smile and hope that someday they will indeed see the light and hope that in the meantime they stop trying to convince and convert everyone else to their beliefs....

    As far as suicide is concerned, why not? Life rarely has a happy ending - only a few lead full, healthy and productive ones - slipping away in their sleep without much tribulation or suffering - and even then, often those left behind have their own grief to deal with. Personally I quite liked the idea of chosing my own departure - especially if I could have the drugs of my choice! But I would like to be conscious at the end - as long as I were able to tolerate the circumstances - if for no other reason to have a good laugh at those waiting in expectation as the lights went out! Who want to live for eternity anyway? Even with sixty or seventy virgins - couldn't imagine anything worse!
     
  2. Rick K.

    Rick K. Active Member

    It is indeed your life to do with what you want. The great problem is when you ask someone else to take it for you because they will be more than happy to so and it will not stop with your death. When you open Pandora's box, it proves singularly difficult to get all those beasties back inside.

    Doctors then end up deciding who is worth keeping alive and who has a life not worth living ("Lebensunwertes Leben"). And remember than idea started the killing of the mentally disabled, people too sick to be worth saving, those who were "suffering" - and of course, those who were felt to be genetically inferior. And it desensitized everyone and was a factor in greasing the wheels to the Holocaust. And it all started with a couple physicians writing of the glories of euthanasia.

    Watch what you ask for. You just might get it.
     
  3. I wouldn't trust a doctor with anything - never mind my life or death. Better that left to the individual or someone nominated by them. The fear is that politicians or madmen (the two are often the same) would procure the practice for their own ends - but we don't need to look far to see they manage quite fine without changing the law or targetting the elderly or infirm. How many did Bush & Blair kill in Iraq......?? How many did Saddam Hussain and Gadaffi kill in their own countries??
     
  4. twirly

    twirly Well-Known Member

    Okay, lets say we don't put a mentally ill megalomaniac in a position of power (which possibly rules out most Members of Parliament in the UK). Hopefully the world is learning through the dreadful events of the past.

    Did we not learn from history? Or have we blindly drawn a veil across everything & use it as an excuse to never progress to a stage where individuals rights are actually considered instead of dictating through legislation for our own good ? Is that not legislating against our human rights?

    My choices are certainly not those of everybody. I am always very careful what I ask for. I am not requesting on another's behalf, just the opposite. I am stating that individuals should always have a choice.

    Kind regards,

    Mandy.
     
  5. MJJ

    MJJ Active Member

    This goes along the lines of an earlier post about playing God.

    From Craig Ewart in The Suicide Tourist:
    "There are people who will look at this and say "No, suicide is wrong, God has forbidden it. You cannot play God and take your own life." Well, alright fine, but you know what, this ventilator is playing God. If I had lived without access to technology chances are I would be dead now. When premature babies are born they are given intensive medical treatment. Their lives are saved because doctors and nurses are playing God. They're saying essentially that "God's plan was that this person would die right now. We're thwarting that. We're playing God." And you know, the Christians never say "We have to stop organ transplants. We have to stop saving premature babies. We have to let them die." No no, for that it's ok to play God. It's only when it might ease someone's suffering that "Oh no, we can't play God comes out."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxQYTFIZi8A the link for part 1, the above quote is in part 2 Well worth watching

    BTW I am a Christian, just wanted to post something from the point of view of somebody who has made this decision after suffering from ALS.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2011
  6. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    MJJ

    The point is not that we die or any dilemma about suicide or euthanasia. We all die to this world at some time. The point is that we accept Jesus first. Once you have done that then how you live life is up to you and how your hearts relationship is with God. If someone truly believes the best way to love someone is to help them die and this is confirmed in their heart then that is what they must do. Jesus fulfils the law because we cannot and we live by the Spirit of faith.


    The main reason for posting Psalm 115 is because the Psalmist says in verse 17-18

    17 The dead cannot sing praises to the Lord,
    for they have gone into the silence of the grave.
    18 But we can praise the Lord
    both now and forever!

    The dead cannot praise God
    and so those living in the world now require salvation before they die to God forever.
    But we (who are saved) can praise the Lord forever (in New life)

    But also how great is it to praise God in this world.
    We do not know how things go once we die to this world and so the psalmist shows his fear that death now might mean some time not being able to praise God or perhaps he just needs that extra bit of time, given by God, to truly and sincerely make himself right himself with God through his faith in Christ.
    So the person who comes to the point of making the decision to end their life might take that into account. Am I right with God or do I need a bit more time? The answer is in only their heart. Only God can judge their action we can point out the consequences of an action as we see them by our heart.

    Imagine knowing this truth and not giving someone who is in mortal despair this chance of New life through the message of the Good News. How selfish, how ugly to convince or counsel someone that life is theirs to do with as they wish without informing them of the consequence of death without salvation.

    Therefore it is good even for the atheist to Counsel someone, who is not saved, to live a few more years, this would be good because then they have more time to find Jesus, and Live!.


    Regards Dave
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2011
  7. twirly

    twirly Well-Known Member

    The discussion has become a little too evangelistic for me.

    Good wishes,

    Mandy.
     
  8. Lizzy1so

    Lizzy1so Active Member

    This discussion highlights the many of the issues i have with organised religion ( of any sort) there seems to be a black and white mind set that prevents people from accepting or tolerating another point of view. History is testment to this, going back before the crusades. It is sad the human race has made such little progress in the last 1000 years. If this were not the case then all the different faiths of the world would get on like a house on fire. Perhaps a little of tolerence from all of us would go a long way.
    Twirly, I'm with you, over and out
     
  9. It's very simple...
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Chook

    Chook Member

    I am disappointed at the lack of science in this discussion - why hasn't anyone looked at the statistics and experiences of those countries where euthanasia has been legalised.
    I have done some browsing of a few published papers and would be interested to hear responses from others who have done similar research.
    I will not bore anyone with my personal opinions because I am very keen for an objective discussion (please no religious or personal stories).
    The questions I will raise are:
    1. In health systems where euthanasia exists what is referral rate to psychiatrists/psychologists for patients requesting death. Is this referral rate rising or falling?
    2. What is the time length between a request for death and the act. Is it static or changing?
    3. Why are people choosing euthanasia - what reasons are they citing and what measures are (or could be) taken to address these issues by society?
    4. What percentage of deaths are voluntary euthanasia that was accompanied by informed consent?
    5. Of the involuntary deaths who has made the decision? Was it the doctor, the family or a nurse?
    6. What is the level of support for euthanasia in different age groups? Does it change depending on the age group surveyed?
    7. What changes over time have been made to the euthanasia laws in these countries - are any children euthanased? If so, why?
    As this is my first post I ask that you go easy on me!
    Thanks,
    Theresa
     
  11. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    Chook, welcome:welcome:

    A lot of a priori assumptions are made by your list of questions.

    First lets define euthanasia

    According to the House of Lords Select Committee on Medical Ethics, the precise definition of euthanasia is "a deliberate intervention undertaken with the express intention of ending a life, to relieve intractable suffering.

    8. Why do we care? meaning why would it concern us personally and corporately that someone lives or dies?

    9. What would be the objective of such research outlined above?

    Regards Dave Smith
     
  12. NeedingMassage

    NeedingMassage Active Member

    WTF - "We will in 10-15 years time have many millions of BABY BOOMERS clogging up hospitals and Nursing Homes costing Billions which could and should be spent on those with a more viable life."

    Now you've degraded the discussion to economics, not personal decisions about life and/or death. Besides, the people that have paid for the hospitals and nursing homes should have the option of using them: seems only fair.
    Owen.
     
  13. DAVOhorn

    DAVOhorn Well-Known Member

    Dear Owen.

    I made a statement of fact.

    The Baby Boomer generation have enjoyed the highest standard of living in the worlds history.

    Unfortunately because of medical intervention rather more of them than previous generations hace survived into very old age.

    When they earnt £10.00 a week that hardly supports a £150.00 a week pension form the age OF 65 TO 95.

    Also the massive costs of ongoing health care for the babyboomers will bankrupt the western world.

    For an adult to sit in hospital for a 24 hour period is about £600.00 excluding medical care.

    For an adult to sit in a nursing home without medical care is about £700.00 per week.

    So if we have literally millions in this situation then how will this be funded?

    Remember this group at that age will have chronic ongoing health problems which dont kill quickly.

    I have not advocated Soylent Green (the movie) or even Logans Run (the movie).

    But i have put forward a reality that has massive repurcussions for Societies all over the world on how to deal with the massive impact of millions of frail elderly.

    I have not advocated happy 80th birthday to you GUNSHOT:butcher:

    But have suggested for those who have a poor prognosis that they have a choice to end their life at a time and palce of their choosing.

    I Australia Northern territory Euthanasia was legal. unforyunately people from all over the world bought one way tickets to access euthanasia.

    So this was again outlawed. The error in this was allowing foreign nationals to access this. So the result was that Australians could not access euthanasia in their own country.

    I knew a Dr in Sydney who went with her family to Switzerland to access euthanasia. The sad fact was she had to go early as she had to be fit enough to fly half way round the world. If she could have had access to this in Aus she would have had up to another 4 weeks with her family.

    This is a massive problem, i am not a politician only a commentator.

    mjj has reaffirmed part of an earlier post of mine, that medical intervention is interfering in God's will.

    David
     
  14. DAVOhorn

    DAVOhorn Well-Known Member

    Dear All,

    On radio 2 news this evening at 7 pm it was reported that a Doctor had surrendered to the police as he had recently returned from Switzerland without his friend.

    A friend of his wished to go to Switzerland to be euthanased and his/her doctor friend accompanied them on their final journey.

    So it is possible that the Doctor could be charged under the law for aiding and abetting a suicide, even though the suicide took place in a foreign country.

    So how do you feel this Doctor should be treated?

    David
     
  15. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Hi All

    In my former life, with the London ambulance Accident and emergency service, I was called upon thousands of times to attend the elderly and others at times of crisis and situations that were devastating to those involved.

    I was expected to resuscitate those dying of cancer at the age of 95 and those approaching that age to feel the ribs crunching under my hands whilst performing cardiac massage because their body was so frail.

    To be unable to force air into their lungs even with an intubation because they were so congested .

    And for what exactly ??

    To bring them back to a few days of pain and extreme suffering in an ITU with tubes coming out of every orifice and procedures being carried out relentlessly whilst the patient is held in a drug induced limbo till..........

    They go through the process of dying a few days later.

    I have been told many many times by elderly patients " they have had enough" and want to die, in fact peaded with me to let them die.

    The inevitability of life is death , something none of us can escape, or like to consider on a personal level. So why oh why can we not accept that as a fact?

    But we are not compassionate enough to let the elderly , infirm and chronically ill die with dignity and without pain and pointless drama ??

    I spent many years of my life pondering this and am still of the opinion, we wouldnt as caring human beings let an animal suffer the pangs of old age and illness...but a human???

    Well lets just let them suffer for as long as we possibly can :mad:

    Think about it, if you were in so much pain with a terminal illness where you screamed every time you move a limb and had been like it for months and months pleading to be left to die in peace...and no one listened just kept pulling you about and telling you " never mind"...how would you feel ???

    I have in fact just told my GP ( amoungst other things) " all I want from you is when I die ... dont let it hurt too much"

    I hope he remembers when the time comes

    cheers
    D;)
     
  16. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    He should be commended for his compassion and understanding IMHO

    cheers
    D;)
     
  17. DAVOhorn

    DAVOhorn Well-Known Member

    Thankyou DTT for your post.

    I concur with your comments entirely.

    I have a friend who at the moment is going through moderately unpleasant chemotherapy for leukaemia. She has had some stunning and amusing side effects in addition to the normal ones of feeling like death warmed up.

    She is nearing the end of this bout of chemo so hopefully for her she gets a benefit.

    She is nearly 30 so a mere child in the game of things.

    Thankyou again for your comments.

    David:drinks
     
  18. markjohconley

    markjohconley Well-Known Member

    Good post D however,
    ....should read "let ANOTHER animal"
    M
     
  19. Always think it's a bit odd that it is illegal to commit suicide by law, yet the same Government which holds the law to be true sends people off to war. Hypocritical much ?
     
  20. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Hi Dave

    I sincerely hope the medication has the desired effect and she goes on to make a full and complete recovery.

    This bastard disease makes no allowance for age or circumstance :mad:

    My thoughts and best wishes are with you both.
    cheers
    D;)
     
  21. Tkemp

    Tkemp Active Member

    It is important to let medical staff know your wishes in advance.
    It is legal to have a "Do Not Resuscitate" (DNR) in your medical notes. You need to have written this and signed in front of witnesses who can confirm your soundness of mind, not being forced into the decision, etc.
    In the UK I carried a document which outlined medical treatment I was and was not willing to receive (incase of emergencies or unconsciousness, etc). This was signed and dated in front of witnesses and stood as a legal document of my right to self-determination regarding my body.
    However, things are starting to change and giving a family member or friend Power of Attorney and informing them of your decisions is a wise choice to make if you really feel strongly about it.

    In Australia things are slightly different. I have to have a Power of Attorney (as i have no family here it is my close friend) and provide them with a copy of my living will. With this the medical staff know my decisions and will respect them.
    In this document I can specify treatments I will and will not accept, also my decision to either be keep alive by extraordinary measures in case of terminal illness, or permanent vegetative state, etc, or not.

    Some of my friends feel I have been excessive in making such arrangements at my age (31yrs) but I would hate for another person to be forced to make the decision for me. Also in years to come I can show them as a record of my decisions and that it is not spur of the moment choice but one I have thought long and hard about and feel very strongly about.

    .... will get off my soap box now :rolleyes:
     
  22. Orthican

    Orthican Active Member

    I run into this a lot. And from those a lot younger than 95 as well.

    I feel the most important thing to do is listen and try your best to use compassion and understanding as the tool for the job.
    Personal bias has no place in the room.
     
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