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Another type of proprioceptive orthotics

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Kahuna, Dec 31, 2009.

  1. From Chirowatch.com

     
  2. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    Point taken. I am creating a new website and will change the wording to indicate that our orthotics work in a different manner to hard orthotics. Ed
     
  3. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    .

    Re FDA. I have not made any submissions to the FDA but Dr Fusco said she had. However I checked with the FDA and found no mention. I am no longer associated with Dr Fusco but am grateful to her for introducing me to the different fied of medicine.

    Ed
     
  4. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    Please explain he meaning of this post. Ed
     
  5. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    I have noticed that almost without exception any child with a scoliosis will have dissimilar pronation with a different angle of the Achilles Tendon when viewed on photography.

    I cannot explain the mechanism of AK muscle testing except to say that it has fascinating uses and I get reproducible results. It is in the field of energy medicine which esoteric but will be understood one day. Try this test yourself. In the standing position with an arm outstretched horizontally ask a colleague to apply pressure downward whilst you flex your arm muscles. The muscles should resist. Now close your eyes and open your mouth and repeat the stress. The arm will usually give way or yeild. It is not a test of strength. The reason is that having the eyes closed removes a vital proprioceptive input and the mouth open removes the proprioceptive effect of the bite There is a loss "intrinsic energy" and the muscle yeilds. This effect is nullified when a patient is wearing our orthotcs but not wearing hard orthotics. Try it before I get another storm of criticism upon me! ED
     
  6. Sorry Ed, I know you are on holiday and busy but...

    I'm presuming you mean abductors of the same toes.

    How do you flick one without the other?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    I meant the toes Thanks. The middle lateral pocket underlies the fifth abductor as best as possible. Ed
     
  8. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    Please find attached our very first patientafter 6 weeks. I knew from that that I was doing something worthwhile
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Very impressive! Much like the evidence you provide on your website.

    However I'm still confused. If the Abductor digiti minimi and the flexor digiti minimi occupy the same space on the plantar surface of the foot how does one distinguish when one is flicking.

    If anything the abductor digiti minimi lies more lateral than the flexor digi brevis.

    I presume this is where the pockets lie

    [​IMG]

    Is the pocket second from the left at the distil end the one "underneath" the abductor digiti then and the far left the Flexor digiti minimi then?
     
  10. Ok. Here is the abductor digiti minimi, overlaid with the template.

    [​IMG]

    And here is the Flexor digiti minimi brevis

    [​IMG]

    So both muscles sit pretty much directly on top of the distil lateral pocket and occupy the same bit of the midfoot lateral pocket. So anything in here will "stimulate" both.

    The flexor, being a bit fatter, pokes out a little into the distil centre lateral pocket, but only by a little.

    Similarly the Abductor hallucis and the flexor hallucis brevis occupy pretty much the same space in the distil medial pocket so again anything in that segment will "stimulate" both muscles.

    The adductor Hallucis and the flexor hallucis brevis both occupy the distil centre medial pocket. So "stimulation" here will affect both of these muscles.

    So here is the thing. Where so many of these muscles overlap, and the lines on the template do not follow the edges of them, will not a flick to any of these zones, or indeed stimulation in them, affect many muscles? Flick the distil lateral you have no way to know which of the minimi muscles are affected.

    Also I'm thinking a "flick" will send shockwaves outward as much as downward so its not like you can be particularly exact is it?

    So how do you differentiate your stimulus or treatment in areas where the muscles overlap ?

    Regards
    Robert
     
  11. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    The very small top lateral pocket is not an active zone but a manufacturing requirement of the stitching process. The one medial to it is the short flexor. the middle lateral pocket is the abductor and in general picks up th belly and the tendon of that muscle. The two medial pockets represent the two bellies of the short flexor. In most cases of scoliosis the foot with the greater pronation tends to have a lateral deviation of the big toe. Thus I do not fill the lateral oof those 2 pockets. The idea is to stimulate a medial deviation. As I said before, my own idea-no science but seems to help. It is important that each foot has the same equal plantar stimulation as we want to balance their associated muscle chains. This is why I disagree with individualised orthotics for each foot derived from plaster casting or computer analysis. My hypothesis is that it is the unequal pull of the spinal muscles that causes the adolescent scoliosis. That is why bracing does not really work as the underlying unequal muscle tensions are still at work inside the brace. My daiughter was in one for three years. Unfortunately our orthotics cannot help her because as well as the rods she had spinal fusion. I am still trying to locate the original Mae Wan Ho paper on collagen and the meridian system which is the basis of my hypothesis. I will send it when I do. Ed
     
  12. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    I had not noticed your overlays. All I can say Robert is that the testing technique works and we get reproducible results. Ed
     
  13. Um... no it does'nt.
     
  14. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    According to my understanding it does. However I am away from my anatomy books. I will have to wait until I get home in a couple of weeks. I have found the Prof Ho article and will send it as an attachment. Being a new in depth contributor I do not fully understand the cyber mechanics of this forum. Are all members able to view this correspondence? Ed
     
  15. If you are a graduate from Edinburgh University Medical School, you will appreciate the meaning of 'Auld Reekie' - and likewise Dr Trotter who was a senior lecturer in Anatomy and a stickler for accuracy. My apologies if my last post was a little facetious it's just that I've got this "Oh no not again" feeling about your claims and explanation and understanding of foot mechanics. But I could be wrong....
     
  16. Everybody can, even non memebers too
     
  17. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    This is something you may want to consider Ed - if a member of the public googles 'Healthmarque' from anywhere in the world then a link to this very thread is seen. (Type in 'Healthmarque Orthoses' and its 3rd from top...) So you see it isn't just us you need to justify your claims to - its all your patients too.

    And they, along with us, probably won't accept explanations such as:

    Ian
     
  18. By all means. But the pictures I put up are from Gray's Anatomy and they really rather clearly show that the abductor digiti minimi runs considerably lateral to the central lateral pocket of your insole.

    The clue is in the name. Abductor. Sort of suggests a muscle which runs on the lateral side of the 5th met rather than the medial side. If it ran on the other side of the met (where the pocket is) it would be an adductor would it not?

    And you will not find any anatomy textbook which does NOT show the flexor hallucis brevis sitting directly on top of the Abductor hallucis!

    Do I need to upload some dissection photos?

    Regards
    Robert
     
  19. Here is another.

    Here's where the template has the ADM. Somewhat medial to the 5th met, pretty much under the 4th.

    [​IMG]

    And here is the ADM, slightly LATERAL to the 5th met

    [​IMG]

    here it is again, lateral to the 5th met

    [​IMG]
    And another, VERY lateral to the 5th met
    [​IMG]

    I reiterate, the pocket designed to stimulate the ADM is nowhere near the ADM.
     
  20. Does anyone think that ED will be back?
     
  21. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Does anyone else find Mark's comments hilarious at times? No offense Ed but it was a good rib ;)

    I hope Ed stays and answers questions. He has based a lot of his theories on work many of us are unfamiliar with. I have never heard of Phillip Dudal and muscle chains. Can you point me in the right direction please Ed?
     
  22. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    That quote is from Qwakwatch some years ago. There is no facility to challenge it. Yet another example of the type of smart A comment that Internet communication has produced where individuals can insult each other without fear of physical retribution.
     
  23. I also. That's the real mark of the man, and indeed the theory. Are the questions and challenges answered or does the protagonist cry "foul" and evade them by claiming they are being victimized. I think the questions of the model are valid and deserve valid answers. If the answers are valid and coherent it speaks well of the model that it stands scrutiny. The absence of an answer does rather indicate that there is no answer to give.
     
  24. Before this gets out of hand Ive got a point to make. Although my sign in name says m weber. My name is Michael or Mike but please not Mark. Good to see that your saw the humour David.;):D but then again you could be referring to Mark Russell who is a Mark not a Mike. It´s all getting a bit who´s on 1st whats on 2nd marxs brothers type stuff

    Ed, now that your signed on can you please answer a few of the Questions that have been put forward. I think we have a loong way to go before I can understand how pushing on a small muscle affect the back in such away that a spinal deformity can improve. I would like this explained and I don´t believe that I´m being a smart A.. or agressive. Give us the info that you have.
     
  25. Nobody is insulting you ed. We are simply submitting your model to scrutiny. Not just the outcomes but the stated mechanism. Is your model strong enough to answer the scutiny and are you able to separate critism of your work from critism of you personally? Because it would be a real shame if you failed to defend a valid model just because of a perceived personal slight.
     
  26. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    I found Mark's contribution pathetic and puerile. This may well be my final contribution
    I will summarise . The thread started when I reponded to a question from Kahuna who had a patient who had done well with my orthotics. I supplied information. I have been challenged on the veracity of some of the claims made. That was to be expected but the manner in which they arrived was not. My road to this point started in 1994 when I began using Dr Fusco's KS orthotics and with good results. However the mode of action was never satisfactorily explained apart from the work of Dr Philip Dudal who is a osteopath trained in the Uk and now working in the Stlll Institute in Italy. The concept of certain plantar muscles relating to particular muscle chains came from him. By which time I was doing my own studies which led me into the field of Posturology which is dominated by French professionals of all persuasions who are kind to each other. I am fortunate to be a French speaker so I have been able to benefit from their work. My general understanding of holistic medicine emanated from there.. I was very much influenced by Volume 1 of Cranio-Sacral Energetics by Dr Peter Crisera which is mind bending in its scope. He is a chiropractor. Finally the work of Dr Mae Wan Ho was the revelation that allowed me to produe the hypothesis as to how the orthotics worked. Look up www.i-sis.org.uk/lcm.html. I thus redesigned the orthotics to fit that concept and get consistently good results as do other practitioners ( two are podiatrists!) that use our orthotics. Apart from my website (more of that later) I do not advertise. Most patients come from personal referrals. My technique using muscle testing is recognised by the Australian Government as an appropriate service for Medicare payments and the orthotics attract rebates from Private Health Funds. As a result of criticsms from this adventure I will alter my website to emphasise the hypothetical nature of the science behind what I do. However I have a clear ethical concience as to what I do and will continue to promote my orthotics and will help any member of this group who wishes to pursue holistic medicine So thats me. I am 72 and still working as a GP and so the orthotics have not been all that financially kind to me Edward Butterworth MB.Ch..B (Edin)
     
  27. Ed your link does not work for me.

    Also was that me Mike that was pathetic and Puerile or was that Mark ?, just joking there has been some name confusion this morning.
     
  28. Ah I see. Then I shall also summarise.

    1. This model is based on Applied Kinesology, a method which has repeatedly FAILED when tested under double blind conditions and can more easily be 2. explained by the ideomotor effect. (see refs)

    2. It claims to stimulate muscles by flicking them when many of these muscle lie directly on top of one another, making it impossible to stimulate them individually (see the pictures on the previous page in which the abductor digiti minimi is shown to sit diectly on top of the flexor digiti minimi. Thus the basis of the TESTING would seem entirely spurious. Even assuming the entirely unproven concept of "muscle chains" is true, the concept simply does not work.

    3. It claims to stimulate these muscles by using pockets of crushed rubber underneath them. However the locations of the pockets appear to bear little or no relationship to the location of the muscles. In other words, they CAN'T stimulate the muscles because they are IN THE WRONG PLACES. Again, see the overlaid pictures on page 2 and judge for yourself.

    4. Even if they WERE in the right places the concept would still be flawed because as I previously stated many of these muscles sit partially or entirely on top of one another, therefore one could never stimulate them individually even if the pockets WERE in the right place (which they are not).

    5. Dr Butterworth has had ample oppertunity to answer these critisms but instead has been evasive, failing to answer even the simplest of questions (IE, how can the pocket for the ADM possibly work when it is nowhere near the ADM. Prove me Wrong Ed, explain how that works!

    6. Apart from a few before and after photos which could be reproduced by the expediant of the patient leaning, Dr Butterworth has NO EVIDENCE for the efficacy of this treatment. It is entirely based on anecdotal information from someone who beleives it works and stands to gain financially by making other people beleive it too. And for the record, half a dozen before and after photos are NOT EVIDENCE!

    7. Such evidence would be easy to acheive by electromyography, attatching sensors to muscles and testing stimulation with and without insoles. No attempt has been made to do such tests. I wonder why.

    All of these are FACTS. Dr Butterworth is free to dispute any of them, but I doubt he will because he can't, hence the sudden desire to stop this debate. Any one of them knocks away the foundation of the whole paradigm. And Dr butterworth is either unwilling or unable to answer any of them. In itself this inability or unwillingness to defend the model says something about its veracity. If the best Dr Butterworth can do is to say

    Without any kind of rational explanation it puts this in the same catagory as Crystal healing, Ley lines, or any of the other myriad disparate but lucrative forms of alternative medicine which based their claims on nothing more than "well it just works".

    And now Dr Butterworth will prove me right by either not posting at all or saying something along the lines of "I won't answer these critisms because you're all being simply horrid".

    He WON'T go through those 7 points in turn and give a coherent and sensible answer. He would if there was one to give.

    Kind regards
    Robert




    Friedman MH, Weisberg J (March 1981). "Applied kinesiology--double-blind pilot study". J Prosthet Dent 45 (3): 321–3. doi:10.1016/0022-3913(81)90398-X. PMID 6938675.

    Garrow JS (June 1988). "Kinesiology and food allergy". Br Med J (Clin Res Ed) 296 (6636): 1573–4. doi:10.1136/bmj.296.6636.1573. PMID 3135014.

    a b Haas M, Peterson D, Hoyer D, Ross G (1994). "Muscle testing response to provocative vertebral challenge and spinal manipulation: a randomized controlled trial of construct validity". J Manipulative Physiol Ther 17 (3): 141–8. PMID 8006528.

    a b c Lüdtke R, Kunz B, Seeber N, Ring J (September 2001). "Test-retest-reliability and validity of the Kinesiology muscle test". Complement Ther Med 9 (3): 141–5. doi:10.1054/ctim.2001.0455. PMID 11926427.

    Pothmann R,Evaluation of applied kinesiology in nutritional intolerance of childhood,Forsch komplementärmed klass Naturheilkunde,2001,9:115


    Wurlich, B. (2005). "Unproven techniques in allergy diagnosis". Journal of investigational allergology and clinical immunology 15 (2): 86–90. PMID 16047707.


    Staehle HJ, Koch MJ, Pioch T (November 2005). "Double-blind study on materials testing with applied kinesiology". J. Dent. Res. 84 (11): 1066–9. doi:10.1177/154405910508401119. PMID 16246943. http://jdr.iadrjournals.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=16246943.


    Wüthrich B (2005). "Unproven techniques in allergy diagnosis". J Investig Allergol Clin Immunol 15 (2): 86–90. PMID 16047707.

    Tschernitschek H, Fink M (February 2005). "["Applied kinesiology" in medicine and dentistry--a critical review]" (in German). Wien Med Wochenschr 155 (3-4): 59–64. doi:10.1007/s10354-004-0113-9. PMID 15791778.

    Teuber SS, Porch-Curren C (June 2003). "Unproved diagnostic and therapeutic approaches to food allergy and intolerance". Curr Opin Allergy Clin Immunol 3 (3): 217–21. doi:10.1097/00130832-200306000-00011. PMID 12840706.

    Hyman, Ray (1999). "Psychology and 'Alternative Medicine': the mischief-making of ideomotor action". The Scientific review of Alternative Medicine 3 (2). http://www.sram.org/0302/ideomotor.html. Retrieved 2008-02-25.
     
  29. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Physical retribution?? Surely you don't still like to 'throw down' at 72 do you Ed? ;) As Robert says - you need to stop taking this personally. This is merely a questioning of your claims and not a witch hunt. Threats of legal action, Queensbury rules... You seem to me like one angry dude.

    I'm glad that you continue to post here but can only assume that as you are taking time out of your day to contribute, but not actually answering any of the queries/questions being put to you, that there are infact no answers to them.

    Ian
     
  30. Are you suggesting a diagnosis of G.O.M.S Ian ?
     
  31. healthmarque

    healthmarque Member

    Not true really. I am not at all angry, just appalled at those initial responses. We have mostly now developed a workable relationship. I believe that I have given enough information and references to support what I do. Those interested will embark on a new line of academic endeavour which will change their whole approach to understanding the human condition. I have supplied enough photographic evidence of success which proves that our orthotics work whether my underlying hypothesis is correct or not. Ed
     
  32. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Here's the problem Ed - before and after photos are not evidence. Just take a look at my photos below. Picture 1 is my Mrs' left foot without an orthotic device, and picture 2 is the same foot with an orthotic device. Is this evidence that this orthotic device is a success (or works) for my Mrs?? No it isn't - because I will admit I faked them. And it was really rather easy to do. That orthotic device isn't even hers - its a sample a lab gave me.

    If you want then later this evening when shes home from work I will take a photo of how horribly aligned her pelvis and spine is, and then I will attach an Ibuprofen tablet to each foot with some sticky tape and show you how perfectly aligned it makes her? This would also be quite easy to do.

    I hope you get my point.

    Ian
     

    Attached Files:

  33. Thats AMAZING!!! You must tell me which lab sent you that sample! Seldom have I seen such improvement! Clearly a quantum leap forward! Why on earth are these insoles not her primary ones? They're brilliant.

    Good point well made Ian :drinks.

    What a shock.:eek: When the questions get tough, the tough get shy.
     
  34. Ian:

    Nice looking foot!
     
  35. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Michael I apologize, I was referring to you although Mark has provided me with some great laughs as well. I have two brothers, coincidentally named Michael and Mark and I sometimes get them confused and call one by the others name. ADD possibly?:D

    Ed I am a natural kidder of the first order. I appreciate humor even when it is directed at me and you should as well although I commiserate your reluctance in this case. I apologize if I have offended you, I am told I have an odd sense of humor.

    Ed I wonder if any of the patients in your before and after photos were receiving any other concurrent treatment? There are no case histories to discern if there were any other mitigating factors in those patients success and me being me, I cannot accept the results provided without more information (it appears that the others cannot either).

    I also believe that the diagnosis of scoliosis is often imprecise unless the etiology is idiopathic (adolescent), acquired, neurologic or congenital in nature and there is a compensatory thoracic curvature that does not straighten during flexion (as you know this is a structural anomaly that is difficult to address without benefit of bracing). Do any of these patients fall into this category? I have seen far too many functional sagittal curves in patients that are correctable termed scoliosis when they are not, they are in fact functional adaptations.

    Further some of the before pictures are not very compelling in terms of degree of severity of the curvature. Some of these appear to be minimal and are probably as a result of functional adaptations. I'm no expert but I have seen my reasonable share of spines in my day and what I see in some of those photos appear to be pelvic generated LLI adaptations that I commonly see and correct successfully. The last two photos may be scoliosis but there is absolutely no data to support them. What are the before and after Cobb angles of these patients may I ask?
     
  36. PML, strange I've seen pictures almost identical to the ones you posted in the marketing of certain prefabricated foot orthoses..... you don't expect me to believe that they faked theirs too, do you?
     
  37. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Nahhhh... I'm sure theirs are legit... they must be right?? Not taken with a cybershot in the bedroom and a white pillow case as a back drop like mine (true story). If you need a model for the upcoming Spooner-prefab then you know who to call.

    Ian
     
  38. Not going to be getting my B&W photo, they weren't interested in the one idea I shared with them.
     
  39. They WOULD'NT:eek::eek::eek:

    Would they? :rolleyes:.
     
  40. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    The Mrs will be delighted with that compliment Kevin. And straight from the man who authored the books she constantly tells me off for leaving on the bedside cabinet and not putting back on the shelf ;)

    Ian
     
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