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Anyone following the MMR vaccine and Autism debate?

Discussion in 'Pediatrics' started by admin, Nov 26, 2004.

  1. Kidsfeet

    Kidsfeet Active Member

    What's amazing to me is that people should have connected the fact that Dr. Wakefield was developing a vaccine that was "Autism-proof" while discrediting a vaccine that had been used for many, many years, and they didn't, yet a drug rep can't give me a pen anymore for fear that I will over prescribe the med they peddle.
     
  2. I've recently discovered the joys of "penn and Teller, B******t".

    This is a rather splendid, and quite hilarious examination of the issue. I recommend it highly.



    Brilliant quote from an anti vacc campaigner in the video

    "before 1945, or whenever vaccines started, we had no cancer. Now we have cancer in dogs!!"

    This guy can vote, and own firearms. Scary prospect that!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  3. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    I still can't understand why people fall for the nonsense and the total misuse, misrepresentation and misquoting of the science. I made my views known on that in the context of barefoot running and while barefoot running is no even close to being in the same league as autism, i see parallels: the false prophets; the denials; the misuse, misrepresentation, misunderstanding and misquoting of the science; the lies; the belief in conspiracies; etc - by a bit of a stretch you could even apply it to the promoters of clinical biomechanical theories. Why do 'rational' people fall for it?

    I am really trying to undertsand all this (I commented on the barefoot ruuning books I read and what I think of them) and following on from this book on Autism's False Prophets

    I have just waded through this book: The Believing Brain: From Ghosts and Gods to Politics and Conspiracies---How We Construct Beliefs and Reinforce Them as Truths by Michael Shermer.
     
  4. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Robert - awesome! thanks for that. I will be using it with the students!

    Here is part two:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  5. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

  6. It is rather good isn't It! Actually, Most of Penn and teller BS is well worth a watch. Funny and well researched.

    I just read that as "believing Brian":D
     
  7. MJJ

    MJJ Active Member

    The episode on Magnets, Reflexology, and Chiropractic is good too.
     
  8. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Here is a pretty definitive statement:
    Vaccines largely safe, U.S. expert panel finds
    Here is a review of the report on Autism Blog:
    Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality
     
  9. A good piece of work, but a waste of time I feel. Those who understand science were already convinced. Those who don't never will be!

    It's all big pharma you see? Controlls everything.
     
  10. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    BTW, in case anyone is wondering about WTF with this topic here on Podiatry Arena, here is how I responded to that question in the High Risk Profession thread (now closed):

    Not much. I do cover it in the paediatrics course with the students as it is an important public health issue and its a good topic to address issues of how the media handle scientific issues; how the conspiracy nutters ignore the evidence; its a good topic to address issues like confirmation basis; how snake oil salesmen operate; how a whole industry developed out of a lie by Wakefield, but now his fraud has been shown, this is a good topic to illustrate issues like the persistence of discredited beliefs .... so not directly related to podiatry but from an educational point of view its a fantastic topic to develop some critical thinking and evaluation (or how not to believe bull****) skills in the students. This thread has provided me with another resource to use for that teaching! There is also this thread we had going on this for a while: Anyone following the MMR vaccine and Autism debate? . Those skills are certainly transferable when it comes to other areas of analysis like clinical biomechanical theories and things like barefoot running.
     
  11. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Here is a commentary on a poorly done internet based survey that was done by an anti-vaccination website that shows higher autism rates in children who were not vaccinated.!!!!Funny the spin some put on it.... I guess we should tell them as it was a self selected sample, the results are probably not even valid ... but it still did show a higher rate in those who did not get vaccinated!!!! Given that they probably set out to prove the opposite, they then deserve the results they got.
    Internet survey shows high autism rate in unvaccinated children
     
  12. Oh thats funny.

    I think that is a good indicator that they are idiots, rather than evil geniuses.

    They've obviously set out to get a certain answer, looking at how healthy the unvaccinated are without reference to a control group. However I suspect the point that they missed is that the sorts of people who fill in questionaires like this are going to be the ones who are acutely aware (or even paranoid) about the health of their children and thus are probably much more likely to worry about, and see a diagnosis of, autism.

    You have to love their wriggle...

    I bet if they were doing the survey on vaccinated children they'd have gone out of their way to state that the vaccines only caused MILD autism.:pigs:

    Got to love it. I wonder if we could ask them, based on the lower incidence, if their survey shows that vaccines PREVENT autism. After all they'd have been crying it the other way if the results were what they wanted...
     
  13. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Its a bit like the big increase in autism when thiomersal was removed from the vaccines (and that was supposed to be the cause!). As was argued in the other thread, based on that we should put the thiomersal back into the vaccine!!!!
     
  14. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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  15. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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    From Mayo Clinic Proceedings:MMR Vaccine and Autism: Vaccine Nihilism and Postmodern Science
    Commentary on it:
    MMR Vaccine and Autism: Vaccine Nihilism and Postmodern Science
     
  16. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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  17. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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    Press Release:
    MMR fraud needs parliamentary inquiry, says BMJ, as new information puts spotlight on Wakefield's co-authors
     
  18. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  19. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
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  20. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
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    Press Release:
     
  21. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
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  22. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    Given an efficacy of 1.5% and the risk of actually getting the disease it's supposed to protect you from, the fact that Mercury and aluminum based preservatives are known to cause brain damage, realistically the whole concept vaccine as a medicine is snake oil. Further, you never know what you're really getting, and commonly population control viruses are added to vaccines without informed consent, "accidentally" added when confronted with the issue. The scum of the earth are people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and Oprah, who pretend to do good things, when what they're really doing is carrying out a plan of genocide. It takes very little research to show that the birth rate has dropped sharply over the past 4 decades, right to a status quo. It's not an accident.
     
  23. Ian Drakard

    Ian Drakard Active Member

    Can't quite decide if this is a wind up or not Joe. We really need that 'tongue in cheek' smilie. If not you may want to read the first two pages. Or check some facts. What exactly is a population control virus if you excuse my innocent ignorance?
     
  24. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    For your reading pleasure.

    "This is not the first time UNICEF has been embroiled in a controversy over sterilizing agents in vaccines. LifeSiteNews.com reported that in 1995, the Catholic Women’s League of the Philippines won a court order halting a UNICEF anti-tetanus program because the vaccine had been laced with B-hCG, which when given in a vaccine permanently causes women to be unable to sustain a pregnancy. The Supreme Court of the Philippines found the surreptitious sterilization program had already vaccinated three million women, aged 12 to 45. B-hCG-laced vaccine was also found in at least four other developing countries.
    "
     
  25. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    Oh... well... if it is on the internet it must be true.
     
  26. blinda

    blinda MVP

    [​IMG]
     
  27. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Yep. In the hierarchy of evidence that's just above "a bloke down the pub said".
     
  28. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    Youtube has quite a bit of coverage on this topic. Look for "Bill gates" and Vaccines.
     
  29. So you are actually serious then?!
     
  30. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    If you do a little reading you'll find that the comments by Bill gates were taken out of context and while on their own "appear" damning, Gates meant something totally different. I'm sure Bill gates is for population control but he did not mean genocide through mandatory vaccination. What a ridiculous stretch.

    You need to listen to his entire TED address to understand the context in which the statement was made. Common sense and science didn't stop the anti vaccine advocates and certain religious affiliations from using this as propaganda. Probably because in the wake of the discrediting of Wakefield they have nothing left to hang their hat on to promote their cause.

    ****ing internet!
     
  31. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    Very. Thankfully, at least in Ohio, we have a choice for our children. I've never gotten a flu shot nor any other vaccine since early childhood, after which, I had my first asthma attack. As for our own baby daughter, she will NOT be vaccinated. How can you argue that vaccines are not controversial when people like Bill Gates openly discuss the use of vaccines to control the population, and further, when reports of birth rates have gotten extremely close to the status quo?

    As to the merits of polluting the water supply with toxic waste, another dead horse to kill. I've seen the effects of the environment in Bellefontaine. It's scary stupid there, and not their fault. The environment is toxic. In Kenton, it seems like many are more awake to the environmental issues they face.
     
  32. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    Their cause has been exposed by much more than just a couple youtube videos. At best, vaccines are a nearly useless science, only marginally better at creating an immune response to a disease than they are at accidentally causing the disease itself.
     
  33. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    Actually I think it is much lower... it is certainly more dangerous as there is a limit to how many people can hear that bloke down the pub.
    Case in point.

    Joe,
    The only reason this is not much of a risk any more is because vaccines have virtually wiped out a significant number of childhood illness... as you live in a country which has a high vaccination rate!
    -------------------------

    From Wikipedia-
    In August 2003, rumors spread in some states in Nigeria, especially Kano, that the vaccine caused sterility in girls. This resulted in the suspension of immunization efforts in the state, causing a dramatic rise in polio rates in the already endemic country. On June 30, 2004, the WHO announced that after a 10-month ban on polio vaccinations, Kano had pledged to restart the campaign in early July. During the ban the virus spread across Nigeria and into 12 neighboring countries that had previously been polio-free. By 2006, this ban would be blamed for 1,500 children being paralyzed and had cost $450 million for emergency activities. In addition to the rumors of sterility and the ban by Nigeria's Kano state, civil war and internal strife in the Sudan and Ivory Coast have complicated WHO's polio eradication goal. In 2004, almost two-thirds all the polio cases in the world occurred in Nigeria (760 out of 1170 total).

    --------------------------------

    Number of worldwide REPORTED Polio cases in 1975- 50000.
    Number of worldwide REPORTED Polio cases in 2001- less than 500

    India, which was once the 'epicentre' of polio just had the first year without a single case.

    near useless science? really?
     
  34. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Tactics and tropes of the antivaccine movement
     
  35. Much lower. If the bloke in the pub tells you its safe to put engine oil on your lawn, and you do, you can go BACK to the pub and remonstrate. Whereas if you neglect to protect your child from meningitis and they die, you can't go back to "antivac32" on youtube and kick the **** out of them.

    I don't think thats the BEST of vaccines. For me the BEST of vaccines are when they eradicate a disease altogether.

    [​IMG]

    Smallpox. Of course this is one of the last batch of cases. The disease is now extinct. Used to be all the rage, killed circa 400,000 a year in europe in the 18th century, and given the population numbers back then, that was a LOT. Tended to kill or blind its victims more often than not. And now, nobody will ever have to see their child look like that again.

    Seriously. Take a good, long look at that poor kid and tell me that "at best vaccines are nearly useless".
     
  36. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    There are as many pictures of babies killed by reactions to vaccines as there are with children who have died from the diseases these vaccines claim to cure. In fact, in more cases than not, the flu shot has caused more problems than if science had left well enough alone. In fact, the death rate of children under 5 is twice that of Iceland, who has only 11 vaccinations under age 5, as compared to 36 in the US. Unlike the US,the Autism rate in Iceland is 1:10,000.
     
  37. Rubbish. Show your stats, with sources for the numbers of children killed by vaccines. Then we'll add up the number of people who've NOT died of, say, smallpox, polio and measles in the last year and compare the numbers.

    For a starter, here is the rate of deaths from measles from 1950 to now.

    [​IMG]

    Vaccination started mid 60s, right about the time the rate of deaths dropped from around 500,000 per year to next to nothing. So by all means joe, if you believe that vaccines are nearly useless, explain to me why the death rate plummetted right about the time people started vaccinating. Co-incidence?

    Vaccines don't CLAIM to cure. They DO prevent. Smallpox, joe, it can't have escaped your notice that people don't get it any more. Because of Vaccines. Not so?

    Is, or is not the rate of polio down to almost nothing, the death rate from measles down to almost nothing and smallpox down to nothing.

    Well, that proves it then. There's no other differences between the US and Iceland so it must be the vaccines. Do tell where the 1:10000 figure came from by the by, because I think thats also rubbish.
     
  38. joejared

    joejared Active Member



    Was a vaccine ever created for Black Death? It went away, so there must have been, right? How else would it have disappeared? Oh and I was vaccinated for Measles, and got it anyway and at an early age suffered from Asthma. While some studies say there is no connection between vaccines and asthma, others do, and with ambiguous results, I'm staying clear of vaccines for our daughter, and thankfully, have the right to make that decision.

    The majority of the reduction was the result of recognizing the need to quarantine contagious patients. Less contagious patients, less outbreak. Simple math. We actually don't have to, nor will we ever likely agree on this point. As for justifying my opinion with facts, it is pointless as the theme has already been to mock any references contrary to the popular opinion that vaccines, even though they are contaminated with neurotoxins and heavy metals known to cause brain damage and have been used to sterilize without informed consent, are good for you. In the street drug world, it's sorta like passing a blunt from a stranger. You never know what's in it. The only difference is that this is a legally pushed treatment.
     
  39. Are you being deliberately obtuse? Bubonic plague spreads through the vector of rat fleas. Don't know how your neighbourhood looks, but I've managed my whole life without ever being bitten by rat fleas! Do you think that might have something to do with it?

    So your argument is that vaccines kill hundreds of thousands of kids each year but you won't show your source because we'll mock it. What a way to carry on a debate!

    Well the truth is ladies and gents, that Joe is actually a giant lizard alien trying to wipe out humanity with bad advice. I have proof!! But there's no point me showing it, he'll only mock it.
     
  40. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    Do you feel better now? Do you feel safer knowing that swine flu has been weaponized, but that's okay because you can be vaccinated for it? That I see vaccinations as a tool of genocide, carefully disguised as a form of population control with little if any medicinal value is not a unique position. The birthrate decline in the past 40 years has come within 1 birth of status quo, dropping steadily.

    It is not uncommon for mainstream media to push a government agenda to push toxic waste products in our body, claiming it's beneficial for our health. Nor is it uncommon to be lied to to garner support for a war, as has been the case in every war for the past century. I'm long past questioning at this point. I reject the answers, and as I wrote earlier, expect that we will not come to an agreement on this issue.
     
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