Anyone following the MMR vaccine and Autism debate?

Very obviously. Reflexifly and without any rationale which would stand up to the slightest scrutiny.

Equally obviously.

I'm somewhat reminded of the "there is no barefoot running debate" thread. To have a debate there has to be point and counterpoint, and evidence presented on both sides. Your position seems to be the following.

1. You will not provide any evidence for what you state as fact on the basis that no-one will believe it. This you can make statements which are arrant nonsence (such as that vaccines kill more children than childhood diseases) then sidestep the need to support such rubbish and ignore evidence to the contrary (the fact that the infant death rate has plummetted over the last 50 years).

2. You will not address any evidence that vaccines prevent diseases. Instead you skip on to the next unsubstantiated claim. The protocol for treating measles did not change suddenly in the mid 60s so that in no way explains the plummet in numbers. Smallpox did not die out by itself by accident. diseases don't do that. Bubonic plague dried up (its still around) because the vector, rat fleas, became rarer.

3. You are representing as fact theories which have no logical merit. Such as the thesis that since Iceland has a lower autism diagnosis rate than the US and iceland has less vaccination than the US, the two must be connected. This is an absurd logical fallacy. One might as well claim that Mcdonalds causes autism, or that volcanos prevent it.

So much like the barefoot running debate, there is no debate. I could point out that the autism rate did not so much as hiccup when thiomersal was removed from vaccines, or that the autism rate in japan actually increased when they stopped giving MMR. You've doubtless read the study on this thread carried out by an antivacc group which showed that there was a higher rate of autism in unvaccinated children than in vaccinated ones.

But none of this will make the slightest difference to you because you are "past questioning and reject the answers", in common with most people who hold your position. In which case the best evidence, the most waterproof logic and the clearest data in the world will not distract you from your presumptions.

There is a name for a belief like that, a belief which exists independantly of verifiable data and indeed where the fact that it is not questioned is seen as a virtue rather than a vice. That type of a belief is called faith. And you cannot argue with faith.

But please, if you are going to hold such a faith, don't represent it as anything else. Science is the means we use to establish truth and if you reject the scientific process (and what else would you call it when you stop questioning, reject the answers, and make wild sweeping statements without any data to support them), you cannot really call your beliefs anything other than faith.

 

Does MMR vaccine travel in time?

 

Here is the latest example of the delusions and conspiracy theories:
Dr. Mark Geier and David Geier lead fight to ban mercury (thimerosal) from vaccines

When in reality, every single study has shown there is NO link between autism and vaccines. Mercury & thimerosal were actually removed yrs ago from vaccines!! The autism rate went up when it was removed. We discussed the discredited Geiers in this thread: High Risk Profession ... the only way they have left is to claim its all a big conspiracy rather than deal with the facts. That way they can rationalize the harm they have done in the context of support they get from the other conspiracy nutters.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203315804577209230884246636.html

 

Dangerous game....

I've been having this debate on another forum. One of the tactics used by the antivac lobby is the "appeal to fear". Describe the use of diploid cells as "injected aborted fetus material into babies" and other such alarmist tactics. One of them was to talk about "the state forcing parents to have their children vaccinated against they're will". When I pointed out that this was wholly untrue, the response was "ahh, but they WANT to make it compulsary..."

 

A Cochrane review on this has just been published:
Using the combined vaccine for protection of children against measles, mumps and rubella

Here is an analysis of the review from Left Brain/Right Brain:
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/20...-measles-mumps-and-rubella-in-children-review

 

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/march072012/doctor-restored.php

 

The GMC ruling against Walker-Smith might have been squashed, but as was stated in the decision:

...for those familiar with the case and who do not wear tinfoil hats, it doesn't change a thing.

See:
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2012/03/walker-smith-wins-appeal/
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/03/andy_wakefield_exonerated_because_john_w.php

esp this comment for the later one:

 

It`s worth bearing in mind that the fact that there`s no evidence to support a hypothosis does not mean there is no evidence; just that it has not been found yet.

This of course proves nothing either way but, with previous history, should suggest that we keep an open mind.

I`ve always considered myself an arch sceptic but seeing my grandson in the days following him having the MMR vaccine have stopped me from being quick to condemn anyone refusing it for their child. The subsequent grandchildren took the single vaccine route !

 

So why has every single study that has tried to find a link failed to find one? The hypothesis is dead and buried and still only exists in the crankopshere.

 

'So why has every single study failed to find a link' ?

Craig, your question is illogical. It may be that there is a link but it hasn't been found yet.

It's understandable to want certainty but the history of medicine is littered with instances of certainties that later have been proved wrong. It's ok not to know, it's important to be open minded.

In the USA in 1986 the 'National Vaccine Injury Act' was passed, under the Act vaccines are legally classified as 'Unavoidably Unsafe'. This means that they cannot be made safe for thir intended use and it.is known that some children will be harmed by them.
The Act was passed to protect against lawsuits for vaccine damage.

Here in the UK millions have been paid under the Vaccine Damage Compensation Scheme yet the Dept of Health refuse to give details of the MMR cases involved !

 

All cases before the 'vaccines court' in the USA related to MMR and autism have failed and nothing has been paid out. There is no link. The evidence is unequivocal. Only the cranks still believe there is a link. They are putting the public at risk and wasting valuable resources when that money is better spent elsewhere.

 

Craig, Perhaps you`re a little misleading and relying on somantics when you say:

'All cases before the 'vaccines court' in the USA related to MMR and autism have failed and nothing has been paid out'.

would you also assert that: 'All cases before the 'vaccines court' in the USA related to MMR and brain damage have failed and nothing has been paid out' ?



CBS News has found that since 1988, the vaccine court has awarded money judgments, often in the millions of dollars, to thirteen hundred and twenty two families whose children suffered brain damage from vaccines. In many … cases, the government paid out awards following a judicial finding that vaccine injury lead to the child’s autism spectrum disorder.

 

None of those payouts have been for autism.

 

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html#1

**HHS has never concluded in any case that autism was caused by vaccination.

FYI

 

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/75333.php

 

Are you serious? Anyone giving the "research" that the press release in 2007 was based on more than a 2 second glance will easily see why it has been totally discredited.

 

`Anyone giving the "research" that the press release in 2007 was based on more than a 2 second glance will easily see why it has been totally discredited`.

Why, How, please explain.

Craig, the two previous posts seem reasonable to me. Neither is taking up an entrenched position but appear open minded.

Maybe you know something we don`t !

The autism bit is, I believe, a smokescreen.

Could you let us know your view on whether or not you accept that vaccines have been responsible for many serious irreversable adverse side effects in children.
After all, that`s what concerns parents ?

 

Sarah and I have made an informed decision to let Francella be vaccinated when she's old enough to make that decision as an adult. In fact, nih.gov probably has an answer for why there is an increase in childhood asthma with respect to DTAP vaccines, linking yeast allergies in the vaccine itself as the issue. It's easier to end a political or medical argument simply by accusing the other person of being a kook, conspiracy theorist, or if you really want to make a point, anti-Semite.

Sarah's 3rd of 4 children is Autistic and has cerebral palsy. While she was pregnant, she was given the H1N1 vaccine. Both myself and a good majority of my family has asthma. Thanks to Obama and the EPA, OTC inhalers have been banned since last year. Any concerned parent with more than just a pulse wouldn't just ask questions. Thankfully, the only breathing difficulty for Francella involves accidentally inhaling instead of drinking her formula, and occasionally, hiccups, It is a good day to be a daddy.

 

Thanks Joe.

Hope Craig answers questions to him, always ready to learn !

 

Look at how the participants in the survey were recruited.
Wonder why the survey was never published in a peer reviewed journal? I am surprised the Med News Today still has the press release on its site. Other credible news sites either did not publish the press release or have since deleted it. They did not fall for it.

I do not have the figures handy but the risk of an adverse effect from a vaccine is a few in a 1000. The risk of death and other adverse effects from actually getting the disease that the particular vaccine protects from is a 100 times greater.

Because people actually fall for things like the above press releases and believe in the conspiracies being touted in the crankosphere that the "herd immunity" is declining and there have been isolated outbreaks of various diseases and the adverse consequences of that (including a number of fatalities).

 

He answered as expected. Bill Gates, in the first 32 seconds of this video, suggests sterilization without informed consent. "Controlling population growth".... It pretty much makes the entire argument coming from his mouth a reason to not trust vaccines.

 

Joe this is America so if you want to believe that nonsense and quote out-of-context to arrive at your stated position that is your right.

For the rest of us who are less paranoid and don't think everything is a government conspiracy here is the context:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2010/mar/10030810

For my money Bill Gates is a pretty smart guy, a great achiever who has made all of our lives better and deserves his success. He has given more to charities than all of us combined and these are the same countries in which his foundation is funding vaccines.

This is so idiotic; if your position were correct and Bill is the apostle of sterilization then why fund the vaccines in the first place if he believes they are effective? Your logic is reprobate, get a grip man!

 

"Out of context." Using vaccines to "Slow population growth" is pretty clear, and has been stated on more than one occasion. In my family, even the most basic of vaccines can be deadly, as confirmed by nih.gov.

 

This is a hoot:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/03/beware_vaccines_will_sap_and_impurity_yo.php

 

Actually, vaccinations do slow population growth. But its not by secretly sterilising the vaccinated.

Vaccinations greatly reduce infant mortality and ensure more children survive to adulthood. High birth rates are typically in countries with high infant mortality rates, as families have to have lots of kids so that a few survive to adulthood. Once the mortality rate decreases, the birth rate follows. Obviously there is some lag, but it happens.

Sorry if this has allready been explained here already!

 

Maybe this is a topic worth discussing, if so concerned about your childs wellbeing? (obviously i'm changing the topic here and maybe getting too personal? just tell me to shut up if so)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/
For infants, not being breastfed is associated with an increased incidence of infectious morbidity, as well as elevated risks of childhood obesity, type 1 and type 2 diabetes, leukemia, and sudden infant death syndrome. For mothers, failure to breastfeed is associated with an increased incidence of premenopausal breast cancer, ovarian cancer, retained gestational weight gain, type 2 diabetes, myocardial infarction, and the metabolic syndrome.

 

Our daughter is doing quite well, and we've already signed the vaccine waiver for our daughter. In fact, she's already 2 months more advanced than I was as a child, more likely than not, because of an absence of Aluminum salts and/or heavy metals, and because of the elimination of fluoride from our drinking water supply. In fact, she's already beginning to sign her needs, and well ahead of normal expectations.

BTW, as for the latter, Sodium Fluoride has now been associated with the #1 cause of death, coronary artery disease. My single largest concern is that the single largest organ of the body is still vulnerable to toxins in our water supply, but I'll be addressing that over the coming months, with or without city counsel's help.

Thanks for asking, and as well you may have noted, what people think of our own informed decision about our daughter, public opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

 

If you say so...

 

I say so and so does our doctor. In fact, she still hasn't been sick a day in her life, 5 months and 2 weeks old and has to date, shown no signs of asthma nor Autism, nor any other health issues. In fact, she's proving to be very advanced compared to kids her age, often seen as months older than she really is. Do you know what's really disturbing? Seeing other kids twice her age who are near comatose in comparison.

It looks as though MERCK is landing itself in hot water for faking test results. They'll probably get a slap on the wrists for it and nothing more.

It's not just vaccines. It's about Fluoride free water and natural foods, literally grown in-house.

 

from our local paper 3 days ago

http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/local/9781622.Our_measles_horror/

now THERE is a kid who is near comatose

 

Failing to vaccinate is a lot like smoking. Completely safe... Until its not.

 

4 kids in this neighborhood, all in one family, will never know their true potential because of the damage vaccines have caused. Compared to my daughter, they're comatose.

 

This is a logical fallacy and one we have to take your word for Joe. Assuming your assertions are correct, is there a correlation here that proves that their vaccinations are directly responsible for these childrens health issues? What are their health issues btw? Comstose?

4 members of the same family claiming vaccination is the cause of their childrens issues would probably astonish researchers or anyone aware of the statistics of immunization 'potentially' being the culprit in any disease let alone autism. Perhaps their family genetics may hold the key eh?

Now that the prince of phony autism research has been exposed and knowing the fact that there has never been a payout for vaccines causing autism, what's next Joe?

 

Really? Thats so sad.

S*** now you say that you've got me thinking. One of my cousins kids are all Ginger AND ALSO all "surly little B*****ds"! I'd put it down a combination of Genetics, too much playstation and not enough quality parental guidance and interaction, but get this, they've ALL had the MMR!!! What do you think Joe, are they zombified, socially inept, barely literate chavs because of THEIR vaccinations?

Thats TWO families with messed up Kids and they've BOTH had the MMR. The evidence is inescapeable. Payne, I think its about time you apologize for your skeptism. Two families. How you going to ignore that eh?!

 

I'll be honest. That last post was primarily sarcasm. Strange from me, I know. I'm trying hard to give it up.

4 people in the same household have what you consider to be "symptoms". They share the same living environment, breath the same air, eat the same food, share the same infections, were raised in the same parenting style, by the same parents. They have the same social and demographic backgrounds and since they interact, will be affected by similar psychological factors. When they DO get sick, they're probably administered the same sort of medicines, and of course, they had the same vaccines.

And because these kids don't meet your standard of dynamism, you think we're gonna leap to the same conclusion as you, that their vaccines made them sick.

Even assuming that "almost comatose" syndrome is an actual medical issue rather than an outlyer on a bell curve of "friskiness" ranging from "my kids" to "their kids", any enquiring and / or marginally trained mind would have to consider any and all of these, and more, factors as potential causes.

Only a true adept in the church of antivaccination pseudoscience would leap to the conclusion that a malaise they alone have identified and diagnosed can confidently attributed to that single shared element. We know you're that Joe, no surprise there. But only a profoundly unobservant one would believe that such argument would, for even a nanosecond, convince anyone BUT a member of that church!

I mean, come on Joe. Seriously. Do you actually think anyone is going to read that and say

"by giminie, someone I've never met says there's a family of 4 kids who are a bit peaky and they all got vaccinated! Well that surely casts doubt on all that research and the fact that the vast majority of kids, including my own, are perfectly tickedy shaggin boo and are also vaccinated! I'm satisfied they there are no other elements which could cause such a well defined and diagnosed patholgy. I'm sold, they're CLEARLY almost comatose purely because of their shots! Hallelujah, I've seen the light, bring on the transorbital frontal lobotomy, cancel my subscription to any sort of medical journals, send back my degree certificate, and baptise me into the church of Wakefield and Grier."

For real? You may have abandoned any kind of scientific or logical training (assuming you've ever had any) but do you serious expect that this sort of thing is going to sway anyone who's not yet done so? Seriously? Why even bring it up?

 

reduced numbers of vaccinated children lead to an increased number of measles infections. as the MMR vaccine isn't given until children are 15 months old this lead to an increased risk of kids that were always going to be vaccinated (including my own) catching it.

wakefield still has a lot to answer for

 

Joe,

I don't agree with you.

Mass vaccination has been the most sucessful health effort in human history, possibly after modern plumbing.

If you don't recognise this, you have a problem recognising things.

As already mentioned by others, your annecdotes are not reliable if the face of the multitude of contrary evidence. Vaccinations have shown to be safe, effective and cheap, compared to the risk and expense of not vaccinating.

I'm sure that my words here have definately changed you mind. Would that be right?