Anyone following the MMR vaccine and Autism debate?

You have that right.

I recognize Orthodoxy in medicine for what it is. Unquestioned allegiance to anything has its own consequences.

My daughter's health is what matters. She still has yet to get sick, in spite of not being breast fed. In fact, in terms of growth, she's in the upper 10%, pegging normal expectations of physical growth, and what is expected of a child her age.

In my childhood the tax payers paid for the cost of my vaccination for the treatment of asthma that was caused by vaccines. Of course, you could stick to the belief that Asthma is a disease and not the result of being injected with a substance the patient is allergic to, in spite of the fact that most 'grow out of it', which in no way fits a disease model.

 

Joe,

What does the evidence say about vaccinations and asthma?

I don't have unquestioning allegiance to anything. It's just the simple fact that the risks of vaccinating are far lower than not vaccinating. It's not an emotional or philosophical decision.

You certainly have the enthusiasm of a new father. You do realise though that my children are more advanced than yours? And they've had all their vaccinations (except Hep B). So according to your approach, my 2 children trumps your one child, so I'm right?

Phil

 

While there has been no double blind study on vaccinations verses non-vaccination, there is a study that suggests delaying the DTAP vaccination significantly reduces the risk of Asthma. In that study, it mentions an allergy to yeast and I couldn't tolerate breast milk or cow's milk.

Actually, I believe the reverse is true.

I've wanted to be a father for more than a quarter century, and while I agree with you that I'm excited to be a father, I didn't come to the decision of not vaccinating my daughter arbitrarily. In fact, the change started in September when I was deciding what things I would limit on our television, intending to reduce it from 500 channels to what would be right for a child to watch. Ultimately, I realized that the television was something worth giving up all together, because it was not only a source of many lies, but detrimental to healthy development.

As for the main reason I decided against vaccinations, it was not fear of autism that motivated my decision, it was Asthma. In particular, when Obama and the EPA banned OTC inhalers, I freaked out, knowing that was one of the things I depended on largely in my childhood, and if Francella were to get asthma, well, there was no immediate treatment available. Thinking about what active ingredient is in Primatine mist, what was obvious was that the inhaler was intended to treat an allergic reaction, of which I have several allergies. Discovery of the NIH 2000 report linking asthma to the Dtap vaccine was only one of several finds related to our family's condition. I also noticed that the asthma statistics increased, as well as Autism. In my childhood, there were significantly less occurrences. The most disturbing things I've noted are how vaccine failures are spun, even when the vaccines themselves caused the epidemics.

I've never met your children. I have noticed a general dumbing down of society over the past couple of generations and more significantly here in Ohio over the past 5 years. I would have to admit being arrogant about how stupid people have gotten for a time, later realizing that the problem was likely environmental. Whether it's toxicity of food, excessive fluoridation, vaccines, or all of the above are things I'm questioning even to this day. As for my emotional response on this topic that's pretty simple to understand. I'm tired of being lied to.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12182372

"CONCLUSION: There is no association between diphtheria, tetanus and whole cell pertussis vaccine, oral polio vaccine or measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and the risk of asthma. The weak associations for Hib and hepatitis B vaccines seem to be at least partially accounted for by health care utilization or information bias."

 

P= G + E + (G x E)

P = phenotype, viz. "almost comatose"
G = genotype
E = environment (all non-genetic factors)

Funny how fat parents often have fat kids, innit? In my experience its usually "their glands" that are at fault...

 

The above reference has been used to defend vaccines, but actually doesn't. It only shows that use of one vaccine vs another has similar pathology with respect to Asthma. The likely cause there is that similar preservatives are used, also likely, Mercury based.

"Although the CDC "study" is likely to be used to support the notion that vaccines have nothing to do with the disturbing increase in the incidence of asthma, it does no such thing.

This "study" essentially shows that all of the vaccines included more or less result in the same incidence of asthma.

There appears to be NO control group, i.e., those who had NO vaccinations at all, ever. This study, then, says nothing about what the incidence of asthma is in the absence of vaccination.
"

Vaccines are a multi-billion dollar a year industry, and as with anything monetary on that scale, is corrupt to the core and will continue to be until the Hippocratic oath gains a higher priority than the hypocritical corrupt monetary system. What is clear is that Asthma and Autism have reached epidemic proportions. As there are a good number of opportunities for research of children who are unvaccinated vs those who are, you would think it would make for a research study. That study will never happen. The vaccine industrial complex continues to push its propaganda and lobby for more. We no longer watch television, and on occasion I'm disgusted with our county's radio station who sometimes runs ads 20 or more times in a day on that subject. What I do hear is fear mongering, especially from one ironically pregnant Help me grow worker. Social Services has no problem with our decision and seems to be open minded on the subject as it is a common decision in our community.

 

this study looks at vaccinated vs unvaccinated

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/120/5/e1269.full

in the interests of balance this study showed a link between early administration of the DPT (which is different from the DaPT vaccine now used) and asthma

http://14studies.com/pdf/mcdonald.pdf

 

When you say "likely cause", what evidence do you use to reach this conclusion? Are you saying you have evidence that Mercury based preservatives (e.g. Thiomersal) cause asthma? I understood that because of concern over Thiomersal's link to autism, it was subsequently removed from most vaccines for the last 10 years. Despite this, autism rates increased. http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10997#description

I've seen first hand what mercury poisoning does, and what levels of exposure are needed. One of the downsides of living one hour away from the beautiful Great Barrier Reef (there's not many) is that you release the really big fish back because they'll make you sick if you eat them. To get that level of exposure from vaccinations, you'd have to hook yourself to an IV drip for a long time.

I've tried to get the full text of this study, but can't find one online. Have you read the full text of this study? How did they work out the relative risks for each different vaccination? I would assume they compared the children who had received vaccinations to those who didn't, but maybe they didn't. There were over 167,000 children in this study. Surely there would have been children who weren't immunised among this large group of children?

Did you have a read of the first study in Andys last post? What did you think of that analysis?
CONCLUSIONS. Currently available data, based on observational studies, do not support an association, provocative or protective, between receipt of the BCG or whole-cell pertussis vaccine and risk of asthma in childhood and adolescence.

I agree with you about the fearmongering nature of vaccination promotion, but it happens on both sides. Some people will make their decisions from a reptillian-brain fear response, whether it's for or against vaccination. But that's not a great way to make such important decisions. No for me anyway. Show me the evidence!

 

The question you have to ask youself is why the obesity epidemic has only taken place since vaccines became widespread! No obese kids 200 years ago were there? And far fewer in sub Saharan Africa where the don't get so many vaccinations!

Face it. Vaccines cause obesity!

 

What you fail to recognise is that 200 years ago, there was no television. Face it, vaccination causes television.

 

I had no idea the conspiracy ran so deep!

1944, flu vaccine created.
1945 NUCLEAR BOMB appears.

Is there ANYTHING they didn't cause!?

 

Here's the full text Page 3 (Selection of Articles) clearly excludes any studies that did not include at least one vaccination.

The World of Warcraft link was almost interesting, using an online social video game for a viral war games scenario.

The study only compares vaccinated children and makes no comparison to unvaccinated children.

With the banning of OTC inhalers from the marketplace, the most obvious conclusion for me was to look for the cause, which is obviously an allergic reaction. Based on available information, if the government doesn't become draconian on the subject, eventually there will be a study that confirms the link between vaccines, asthma, and allergies, most likely a yeast in the vaccines as well as heavy metal induced allergies.
Among the treatment for my own case of asthma included an allergy test, of which I had more than dozen allergies, including a couple of antibiotics. I find it interesting that a patient can "grow out of" Asthma. That doesn't quite fit a disease model, but rather suggests a dilution of contaminants. As for food I have another project I'm working on that will likely also be implemented by neighbors. When Francella is old enough, I'm hoping to encourage her to get involved because it actually helps with allergies. A Living home trumps the concept of a living room and
the effect of combating food inflation also has its benefits as well.

My daughter was only injected with Vitamin K at birth, which was likely unnecessary. If I had done sufficient research on that injection, I would have only accepted an oral dosage for her, which would have worked equally well. In fact, the same treatment could have worked with a newborn formula that included vitamin K, which was likely only necessary for early circumcision in boys and possibly premature or underweight births.

 

Wrong.

Read it again- http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/120/5/e1269.full METHODS. The major medical electronic databases (Medline, National Library of Medicine Gateway, and Cochrane Library) were searched, and reference lists of the relevant publications were reviewed for relevant birth-cohort studies and randomized, controlled trials from 1966 to March 2006. Only studies that directly compared vaccinated and unvaccinated children, validated vaccination status by medical charts, and used preset criteria to define asthma were included.

It ONLY included studies that compared vaccinated children to unvaccinated children.

This study shows no correlation between these vacs and asthma. So your theory is fantasy. (Unless of course you have some other evidence you havn't shared yet).

I wont hold my breath waiting for the great unveiling of the vaccination conspiracy. I'll continue to vaccinate my children as the evidence shows that it is an extremely low risk way of preventing serious diseases.

BTW, neither of my children have asthma or allergies. Maybe that's why I'm not on the conspiracy bandwagon with you, looking for skeletons in the closet.

Your conspiracy about the OTC inhalers is fanciful as well. Please remember you're the same person that previously said that Bill Gates promoted sterilisation by vaccination a few posts ago, which is obviously not so. You're a bit too enthusiastic with an overly active imagination.

Joe, thanks for engaging in this discussion. It's good to keep up to date and refresh myself on vaccination statistics and evidence. BTW, this is not a discussion I ever have with my friends or family, as I've found it to be not worth the drama. It's only in the relative anonymity of the WWW that I would do this. And on that level, it's fun.

 

Read it again?!

I think you give our friend too much credit phil! Our learned friend obviously never even bothered to read it!

Why would you if you've already made up your mind to ignore all the data you don't like anyway?

 

You stole that from Simon Singh; "Why on Earth would you want to hear about the conclusions of research studies when you already have all the answers?

I haven`t contributed to this thread yet...but, my daughter did not receive the triple vaccine due to her history of frequent febrile convulsions, yet she developed asthma, eczema and allergies which she has now`grown out of`at the age of 20. Conversley, my 17 year old son did receive the full MMR and has never manifestied any allergy in spite of carrying the ADAM33 gene associated with susceptibility to asthma.

Yeah, I know N=2 is generally meaningless, but when weighing up the risks and benefits of any medical intervention, I tend to look at the Cochrane Colaboration for an unbiased systemic review of evidence, which states that there is no evidence that the MMR vaccination is unsafe.

Just my 2 cents, or 2 kids.

Bel

 

As a member of a profession with a overwhelmingly rabid anti-vaccine stance (which I do not blindly agree with), I'd like to share something that mirrors Belinda's post. Close friends, a couple I graduated college with have two children who were never vaccinated. They are a couple years apart in age, their daughter is older. She has no allergies whatsoever but the son is allergic to nearly everything.

These are two very devoted parents and both chiropractors who believe that vaccines are unnecessary and dangerous. IMO they believe it because that's what is out there as information in the holistic fields. I respect their right as parents to raise and care for their children as they see fit, they are wonderful parents. That said, explaining how it is that their unvaccinated son is allergic to everything and their daughter is not and neither was vaccinated presents a real problem.

We all want to blame someone or something for autism, asthma, allergies etc and we would all like to determine the cause and find cures. Be that as it may, blindly adopting a conspiracy theory mindset that vaccination is responsible for health issues that are complex and probably more related to genetics and environmental factors is myopic and more visceral than cerebral.

 

from the selection of articles paragraph :-

"The abstracts of all articles identified were reviewed, and
71 relevant original scientific studies were read in full. In
the preliminary assessment, we excluded cross-sectional
studies and studies that did not directly compare subjects
who were vaccinated with BCG or DTP/whole-cell pertussis
vaccine (“pertussis vaccine”) with unvaccinated
subjects."

sorry joe but i'm missing your point here, how do you compare asthma rates between vaccinated and non vaccinated if the studies do not include vaccinated subjects?

 

I didn't... but I could have. Its a fairly fundamental blockade in an argument.

To use some other quotes.

"To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to
the dead" Thomas Paine

"There's no point playing a man at chess when he's only capable of playing snap. " Robert Isaacs

 

Related to this thread is the following Medscape article (in particular - "Myth 2: Vaccines Cause Autism"):
Five Vaccine Myths Debunked:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle...uac=156241CR&spon=17&impID=1266614&faf=1#vp_1

 

It's been a while since this post, but I'd like to propose a concept similar to the "What is a Woman" dialog. In the placebos of trials, "What is a placebo?". Is it a different vaccine, or one with everything but the attenuated virus, or is it really just saline? There have been no legitimate safety studies of vaccines.

It was the Tetanus HCG vaccine that caused pregnancy issues in women, which pales in comparison to the Covid vaccination now on the childhood vaccination schedule. https://rumble.com/v18g3xg-chd-films-presents-infertility-a-diabolical-agenda.html. To the unvaccinated women, the covid jabbed are now an STD of spike proteins. Thankfully, my household refused that "vaccine". Unfortunately, my mother's side didn't, with one casualty, a cousin.

That said, something horrible happened to my now 11 1/2 year old and still unvaccinated daughter. She developed no health issues nor allergies, and is significantly endowed advanced into womanhood compared to her peers. What comes to mind on this subject is why many who were 16 and unmarried were considered an old maid in the wild west.
With only one exception and what I consider a mistake, she did in fact get the Vitamin K shot at birth. If I had just read the insert, I would have refused that one as well.