Barefoot Running Debate

I thought everyone here might be interested in this:

"An Interview with a Podiatrist and 'Barefoot Advocate,' Dr. Steve Bloor"

 

Care to share that evidence. I can not see one reference in Professor Howell's book that actually supports barefoot running ...

 

Thank God this "barefoot advocate" and podiatrist, Steve Bloor, is from the UK. Simon, Robert, Ian, Mark, David and others.....he's your problem!!:bash:

 

I wonder if any of the people who are discussing barefoot running in this debat ever tried it themselves? The only way to figure it out is to give it a try and listen to your body. Start running barefoot (or on minimalist shoes) for a while and find out what is does for you. Or not. What does your body tell you? This is where the main problem is, many people aren't able to listen to their body anymore. Our instincts used to tell us how to walk and how to run! Not our shoes.

I started barefoot running because I was curious what it would feel like. I started of quite slow and now I am enjoying it so much! So stop spreading your opinions when you're not a experienced practitioner, because then you have no right to speak.

 

ding ding ding the death bell of this thread has just started to ring a little louder

 

Hi i'm a podiatrist in the UK.

Recently in a meeting with some of my collegues the concept of barefoot running was mentioned, which seemed to generate some debate, especially as to what are the positives and negativee (The subject was brought up because of media publications on vibram five fingers).

I have been given the oppotunity to generate a little bit of data on the subject using the facilites of a large research biomechanics dept.

Given that the bearfoot running vs shod running issue has been discussed at lenghth in this thread, I don't want to waste this oppotunity. can anyone suggest what data i should try to generate (vertical GRF, Kinematics)

Many thanks in advance

Dave

 

It would be helpful if the study was longitudinal over a long period of time vs cross sectional over a small sample size. Running is a life long practice and the long term effects of barefoot vs shoes should be measured as such.

Dana, SNMP

 

Could we start a new thread titled "Best Podiatry Arena Log-In Names".........? The image that keeps popping into my head when I read this name is that of Ellie Mae Clampett!!

 

Hi Dana,

Thanks for the advice.

Unfortunately the lab time will be restricted to a couple of sessions at the most, so i was hoping to generate a 'snapshot' if you like, of a comparison between the shod and unshod running communitees.

Dave

 

Dave, I suspected as much. For the studies I've read, I find them to tend to be over a very short window of time and using a small sample size. The margin for error when doing this is great. In spite of this problem, there are people like to treat many of these studies as proof and support of their preconceived opinions. These snapshot studies hold far more weight than anecdotal findings from someone with a lifetime of experience.

Dana, SNMP

 

Dave,

Unfortunately that is unlikely to add anything scientific to the debate in my opinion

Ian

 

I'm UK based dfpod and I do both shod and barefoot running. If you need any runners to help out with the research I know a few depending on where the study would be held.

I'd be interested to see some more research with some sensible goals

 

What's a dfpod?

 

and they wonder why so many think barefoot runners are nutters. Is this really the calibre of the quality of discussion they generate?

Why not actually contribute something useful to the discussion?

 

Yeah, lets say Dave measures 3D kinetic data using state of the art experimental equipment and also 3d kinematic data using state of the art equipment and also physiologic data using state of the art equipment (or just one of these). All of this he does in an adequately powered series of individuals. He compares habitually shod runners versus habitually unshod runners. He reports his between-day error within the write-up and he comments upon the significant clinical and statistical differences in his experimental trial variables. Unless your "life-time experience" includes 3D kinetic, 3D kinematic and/ or physiologic data produced under laboratory conditions and compares habitually shod with habitually unshod runners. He writes this up and has it published in a peer-reviewed journal. Then, unsurprisingly it really is incomparable. Probably then, this one man's data will be held in greater esteem than one other man's account of his running performances recorded using a heart rate monitor and a watch recorded over the last X number of years. I'm just guessing. Obviously, Dana. Echoes of the Lieberman study?

 

All that will tell you is the biomechanical differences between barefoot vs shod running or heel vs midfoot strike. It won't tell you which is better, yet the barefoot running community still manage to interpret research done like that to claim barefoot running is better ... don't figure as no one else makes that conclusion except them ... but then what do I know? I am not allowed an opinion on this:

Hey Barefoot farm girl - perhaps you could explain why the barefoot running community in general interpret the research this way and no one else does? How many barefoot runners have I asked this question of in this thread....I wonder why they never come back and answer. Perhaps you could explain that as well?

 

Simon, it all depends on what he is measuring. Taking a picture of 5 or 6 college students who claim to be joggers using state of the art experimental equipment might give you a very precise picture of the subjects on a given day but will it be accurate?

I have often wondered who the peers are in a peer reviewed journal. If someone did a study and had their peers from this forum review their work for example, I would honestly have to question the validity of the study. Many of the people posting on this forum have given me plenty of reason to believe their opinions are biased.

With respect to using a heart rate monitor/gps/chronograph vs using state of the art experimental equipment as Bob Dylan once said, "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows".

Dana, SNMP

 

Thanks for the input,

The important aspect for me regarding this (very small) research exercise is that any preconception that i may have about barefoot running does not influence any data i collect.
I'm a clinician who primarily works with diabetic patients, so i spend most of my time convincing patient to keep shoes on!!

 

Dana, please re-read my above post, with the time and consideration similar to that which I gave to writing it, e.g. I did state "an adequately powered series of individuals". And yes, it will be more accurate for those individuals upon that day compared to someone who uses some home kit that will have questionable accuracy in their data not only for that day but for any subsequent day too, magnifying the error.

I am a reviewer for the Journal of the American Podiatric Medical Association. Papers are sent to me anonymously. I review them critically and offer advice to the author to allow them to provide a paper which is valid and publishable. If it is clearly not publishable, this is stated too. Everyone is biased by their own opinions, as reviewers we try to judge a papers worth against a set of criteria to help make it a less subjective process. If an author is unhappy with the reviewers opinions then they can request for the paper to be reviewed by other reviewers. They can even nominate certain people who they would not want it to be reviewed by when they submit their manuscript.

Since when did Bob Dylan become a scientist? Poet, I'll give ya (although I'd guess he probably nicked more off Kerouac and Ginsberg than he ever gave them, hey, I've always preferred Bukowski- so what do I know?), but scientist probably not. In subterranean homesick blues, was he not referring to the growing tide of opinion in the US against the contemporary US governments policies on, amongst other things, the Vietnam war, when he said "you don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows"? I'm guessing, but I think opinion on barefoot running is somewhat lower on the National barometer than the Vietnam war was at the time when Dylan recorded the homesick blues.

"A man in a coon skin cap in a pig pen wants eleven dollar bills, but you only got ten."

You got me though, this is one of my favourite songs of all time, and has probably the best and perhaps even the first music video's.
P.S I have a photo somewhere of me standing in the alley (Kerouac Street?) between "the book-shop" and the bar next door, smoking a fat one. Happy day's.

 

Give me a freakin break!

I live in the USA, should I not have an opinion on Canada even though I do not live there?
I am a Christian, should I not have an opinion on Islam even though I do not practice it?
I am a conservative, should I not have an opinion in the left, even though I do not believe in their views?
I am a shoe runner, should I not have an opinion on barefoot running, even though I do not do it?

You have just lowered my opinion of barefoot runners.

 

Previous posters forum name

 

Simon, I honestly have enjoyed our exchanges. This kind of describes them:
"look out kid its somethin' you did God knows when but your doin' it again"

Dana

 

No. We're better off with: "don't wear sandals."

 

No **** Sherlock, and their real name is............ & yours is......?

 

Laughing.

Simon, I do get your point about my anecdotal experience. It's taken you a long time and a lot of effort to beat it into my head, but I do get it. I still have my point of view based on it, and in the lack of supporting scientific study, I will always draw on my experience to reach conclusions. As long as those conclusions work for me, that's all that matters. I now know enough to not inflict them on others unless I am asked to give them. In the meantime, I won't hesitate to call out someone who is blowing smoke regardless of how many initials they have after their name. Smoke is smoke no matter who's pipe it is coming from.

Dana, SNMP

 

That'll be a preconception then. Which adequate design will have to thwart.

 

Yep, but don't try to pretend that you can extrapolate them to anyone else. As you can't. As I've said before: good luck with your future, Dana.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if Simon, Ian, Craig or any other frequent podiatrist posters to this thread believe a study adequately scientifically measuring the merits of barefoot running is even possible.

Realistically, what would a study about barefoot running have to look like for you to consider it valid and proper? Is such a study even realistically possible?

From what I've read, it seems there's no hope of anyone ever creating a proper scientific study that shows any benefits from barefoot running. But I'm just a lay person. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Really.

 

If my future is as good as my past has been, I will continue to be happy and content. Good luck with your future, Simon. :drinks

Dana

 

We discussed the design of such a study on page 16 of this thread; See posts #460, 461, 467 and 470

 

Why did you ask then if you already knew the answer? Bloody silly question really wasn't it.

As for my name, I don't post my name on public forums because you don't know how many loonies are out there and I'd sooner they didn't know my name.

 

It seems that it would be very difficult to conduct a study that provides conclusive evidence with respect to comparing barefoot running to shod running.

History tells us humans have been running barefoot for millions of years. Nike has only existed since the 1970's. Does it matter? Just because shoes are available, it doesn't mean an individual has to wear them. A study doesn't need to exist to tell people what to do. Or does it? Whether you chose to wear shoes or not, does it matter?

I know this thread is about the issue of unsubstantiated claims. What I don't understand is why claims have to be made at all. Why is it important to convince others whether they should wear shoes or not? It should simply be an individual decision based on what the individual finds works best for them.

Dana, SNMP

 

Not that difficult. It would just have to be done the way I mentioned in the previous post. The trial would have to be designed in such a way that it can meet the minimum requirements for the reporting of clinical trials as defined in the CONSORT statement.

 

1) Does the sample only include runners or non runners as well?
2) What age range should the sample be?
3) How big of a sample? >100? should it be >1000?
4) Any cultural considerations? Should it include people from the 3rd world?
5) How long should the transition to barefoot be?
6) How much running per day/week should the sample do? This is a critical variable. With enough running, shoes or no shoes the subject will become injured.
7) For how long should the study be conducted?
8) What do you measure? Injury rate, improvement in level of conditioning, improvement in speed? Improvement in endurance? Some combination?
9) Should the experiment be completely binary? Only wear shoes vs only go barefoot. What about a wearing shoes with a proportion of barefoot running? What proportion of barefoot running?

It is the binary thought that bugs me the most about barefoot vs shod. Why does it have to be all or none? What if the most effective approach to running nirvana is a combination of running in shoes AND running barefoot.

Craig, yes you can conduct a study but will it answer the right questions? We know it can't answer all of them.

Dana, SNMP

 

That's what I do. A wise man (actually my father in law) regularly tells me the "everything in moderation" rule. which I tend to think is very true.

 

The answer to most of your questions will depend on the research question that you are seeking an answer to. The methodology and study/trial design will depend on what the research question is.

Depends on the research question.

Probably does not matter, as in a randomised trial, you will end up with equal numbers of each age group in the two (or more) arms of the study

That’s why we do power calculations to determine sample size. In the previous post I said "probably 100" - that’s based on my guestimate based on experience, but you would not do this without the proper calculations and as low as 60 may be adequate.

Depends on the research question.

Many trials have a Delphi type process to get a consensus on protocols before they start. A pragmatic trial is set up to mimic real world experiences, so transitions vary in the real world, so the trial can be set up to allow for that.

Not really a problem, as the randomisation process ensure you should get equal number of distances run between the two groups... that’s why the randomisation process in trial is so important. However, as I and others alluded to in the previous posts, barefoot runners generally tend to run slower and run less distances than shod runners, so is the injury rate a function of distance and speed and not a function of shoe vs barefoot? There are ways to control for this in study design and analysis.

that gets factors into the power calculations based on the expected rate of injury, depending on data from other studies on injury rates.

Depends on the research question as to what outcome measures you use.

Depends on what research question you are asking. Do you want to compare barefoot to shod or do you want to compare shod to a combination?

You set the trial up to answer the question you are asking.

 

Craig, so to truly understand barefoot vs shod running, there are many questions that need to be answered. To answer many questions, many studies need to be conducted. In the meantime, I think I'll go out for a run. :drinks

Dana

 

Exactly.

I just back from mine and now going to try my MBT's that just arrived! ... we need some trials on them too ... ... can someone explain to me why these "bricks" are called barefoot technology?

 

Marketing I think. I haven't actually seen any masai folk wandering around with ridiculous lumps on the bottom of their feet though.

Similar vibe and yet completely different from other supposed "barefoot" shoes. Barefoot seems to be the current buzzword doesn't it?

 

I don't know if you pay attention to the Google suggest or Google instant when you type into the Google search box. Based on the volume of previous searchs for keywords, they try to suggest words that you might be looking for..

...the other day I was looking for a particular barefoot site, so started to type barefoot into Google - one of the options that it gave me was 'barefoot socks' - I had to laugh at the oxymoron! ... but as Google suggested it, that means a lot of people must be searching for barefoot socks ... whatever they are.