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Barefoot V Runners

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Boots n all, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    what is a plog Biase?
     
  2. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

    Sorry, l thought that would have been straight forward.

    A client with a fused STJ, pending pitch fused at, wont go well in a high heel or minimalist shoe with low heel pitch if it does not match the fused position, but could do very well in a rocker sole to the point l would recommend it.

    A child with severs that came in a Dunlope volley, the world first minimalist shoe maybe, l would not recommend another minimalist shoe, rather a shoe/runner with more heel pitch and firmer counter until the pain stopped.

    A mature client with Tib Eq would do poorly in a minimalist shoe, reasonable with a standard heel pith, but often do better in a greater heel pitch, l may recommend a pair of lace up high heels, actually l make a great little ankle boot with zips and laces for these ladies with heel pitch to match, av. about 25mm.

    For average Joe/Mary going for a walker with no real issues..anything they want and the more variation the the better

    We could be here all day...Pathology and ROM pending to all of the above l give no recommendations with out seeing the individual client.

    l have seen some horrible out comes of the mass produced rocker/SACH soles on those that heavily pronate, because the individual client was not assessed, rather they were sold/bought a pair because they were the latest fad and here lay the danger of new shoe fads with little science and great marketing.
     
  3. phil

    phil Active Member

    Yes, I definitely can second that. See it all the time in clinic. For example, last week I had a marathon runner with ITBS whose trainer is pushing her to get out of her 8mm heel height differential brooks, and into some zero drop shoes. She is terrified about using orthotics, she almost did the vampire-crossed-finger-thing at me when I suggested it! Despite the fact that she has a very medial subtalar joint axis, FnHL, awful running gait, and poor pelvic and hip strength and control. There's so much to be done there, but she wont even think about orthotics as PART of her treatment.

    And this is exactly what has been going of for the last 3-4 years with minimalist shoes- fantastic marketing, rough handling of science, and religious fervour.
     
  4. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Puerto Rican a definition from any of these.





    .
     
  5. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    Yes Blaise... while they are racing. This is no different to the past 30 years.

    I have seen quite a few elite Australian, European and African runners and I do not know any that train in 'minimalist shoes' apart from doing track work in spikes or flats. Most use a standard running shoe for their high mileage...
     
  6. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    I gotta tell you that was LOL Blinda... my personal faves are:
    someone who has one parent who's a wog and another who's Polish
    and
    The combination of "plug" and "clog" when neither will do on their own.
    "When I awoke this morning, my nose was plogged."
    and finally and unforgettably
    Pieces of excrement that are half log and half plank in shape, with the consistency of putty. i.e.: Break down easily.
    Plural: Plog(s) This morning I woke up to take my morning poo. To my shock and awe I made 3 plogs in the toilet. My bum was very dirty. I think Biase does a lot of plogging...
    I really must thank Biase for bringing this word to my attention. I will be using it in my nightly scrabble challenge with my wife..
     
  7. kitos

    kitos Active Member

    Aren't you a nice chap (ess)? You presume too much, way too much and your anger shows through in the construction of your emails.

    As far as I am aware we haven't met so why be so rude/arrogant so to presume or question my need?

    When I require further knowledge and education I prefer learning from someone who talks out of their mouth............

    Nick
     
  8. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Agree...
    50% run 80% of their milage with traditional BBS
    40% run 80% of their milage with light trainer
    20% run all the time with minimalist shoes
    100% run 20% (interval training) with the racing flat (minimalist)

    The reason they use traditional BBS : trend and recommendation from health professional, coach and retailer
     
  9. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    sorry for that, it's probably the barrier of the language. It's not my goal to be rude. Arrogant? Maybe a little bit with people that don't know the difference between minimalist and maximalist shoes... and debate on that topics.
     
  10. Zac

    Zac Active Member

    I'm growing tired with this thread & many other recent threads (generally involving one person) which is a real shame because they are important topics. They turn into slanging matches & I'm just not interested. I love Podiatry Arena but there are certain individuals that when I see their name in a post, I know I might as well move onto something else. I don't have time or the interest to read them.
     
  11. sean

    sean Welcome New Poster

    I know this may sound a bit simple, but when clients ask me if they should buy barefoot shoes I say: yes, if you plan to only train/run around a park or oval that you don't trust eg: glass/ sharp objects. I say: no if you plan to train/run on concrete or bitumen.
    When man started running "millions of years ago" we didn't have concrete/bitumen we do now!
     
  12. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    I say yes for both...
    and I don't find a good reason why we cannot run on minimalist shoes on asphalt
     
  13. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    I can think of a few reasons for not going barefoot or minimalist and the hard road or whats on the surface is not one of them.
     
  14. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Is there some advantages to wear/recommend/prescribe BBS (except not changing an habit, or treating a foot-post leg injury) more than a minimalist shoes?
     
  15. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    The specific example I had in mind when I posted above was post tib tendon dysfunction.
     
  16. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    I agree but it's to treat a pathology

    ... decrease stress on this tissue : heel lift, firm midsole (to prevent extra pronation bring by the softness) with antipronator (why not, even if it's not an important factor) and an orthotics inside the shoe.

    How long? short term (time to release the symptom) for most of the one I see in my practice...

    There is always exceptions
     
  17. sean

    sean Welcome New Poster

    The last time I ran I felt ashphalt was not to forgiving:bang:
    What are a minimalist shoes anyway? Is there a definition out there?:confused:
     
  18. A minimalist shoe is defined as follows:

    any running shoe of any construction made by a shoe manufacturer who believes that by claiming their shoe is "minimalist" they will sell more of said shoes to numbers of gullible runners who believe that "minimalist shoes" are better than traditional running shoes. As soon as shoe manufactures believe that runners will not buy their shoes simply because they claim it is "minimalist", then they will think up some other catchy name for their shoes in order to sell more shoes to gullible runners.....in other words there is no accepted definition for "minimalist shoes"
     
  19. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Kevin : I feel you have a problem with minimalist shoes... My tips for you : try to be open, in some years it will be the average.

    Sean : if you want something more objective look our the TRC rating http://www.therunningclinic.ca/blog/2012/09/definition-du-minimalisme-defining-minimalism/

    To quantify the type of shoes in our study "Comparison of two types of running shoes for preventing injuries in recreational runners: a pilot study" we used this rating (/10.. 0=extremely maximalist and 10 extremely minimalist) :

    Stack
    0 = 30mm and more
    1 = 20 à 29mm
    2 = 10 à 19mm
    3 = 9mm and more

    Drop
    0 = 13 et plus
    1 = 9 à 12mm
    2 = 5 à 8mm
    3 = 4mm et moins

    Flexibility
    0 = rigid
    1 = moderately flexible
    2 = very flexible

    Weight
    0 = 251g (9.1oz) and more
    1 = 151g à 250g (5.1 à 9oz)
    2 = 150g (5oz) and more
     
  20. gpeizner

    gpeizner Welcome New Poster

    Just to chime in, I always find this topic to be very comical. When it comes to barefoot running it's almost hard not to compare it to politics, everyone has their own ideology regardless of whether or not the statistics or medical journal readings are right in front of you. Now mind you, my credentials are not too extensive. I've worked in the specialty running shoe industry for over 5 years and am going to school to become a podiatrist. So try to take it easy on me for this is also my own ideology.

    You can't be narrow minded. Look at the broad picture, not what works best with you. Fortunately I've been able to sell shoes to both elitists and 300 pound couch potatoes so I'd like to think I've seen a good size of the spectrum. From all my experience in this industry, I've concluded that regardless of you being an extreme over pronator or high arched supinator, every individual is different. I've seen an extreme over-pronator roll right through the Asics Evolution, then put the Brooks Adrenaline on and be supported sufficiently. (not a brand plug, actual professional experience.)

    Some of you have noted these things, I apologize for not giving credit where credit is due. The surface that we run on plays a huge part of the barefoot/minimalist run conversation, cement doesn't give, at all. Natural surfaces should be run on. If you want to talk about being "natural" when running that makes the most logical sense.

    This isn't a post meant to cause a ruckus, if you're going to give input which I would love then please make it constructive rather than destructive. Craig I'm sure you will have something as you always do (which is warranted.)

    Thanks
     
  21. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    :welcome:
    Of course!

    As I recently said in the thread on the Hoka One One's:
    And the most recent post in the No Barefoot Running Debate thread reported on the most recent systematic review of all the evidence:
     
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