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MASS Discussion

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Kevin Kirby, Apr 13, 2010.

  1. And I'm sure someone said it before that.....:drinks
     
  2. Jeff Root

    Jeff Root Well-Known Member

    I would be interested to hear Dr. Shavelson's comments and opinion about the importance of orthotic calibration since he also subscribes to the theory of higher arch orthoses. Dennis, are you following this thread? Would you care to comment?
     
  3. Glaser? Glaser? Glaser?
    Anyone? Anyone?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWzMyKSIbFY

    Anyone know what Spooner called this? Something, D.O.O. biomechanics? Voodoo biomechanics...:D
     
  4. Jeff Root

    Jeff Root Well-Known Member

  5. So long as we're being Silly, Here is Ed at the post match interview.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgfzaCja2c

    Actually, No. This is childish and unseemly. Ad hominems and mockery should have no place here and I hereby swear I shan't post any more silly, satirical or mocking images or videos.

































    Poor Mr Ed


    [​IMG]

    Sorry.
     
  6. Jeff Root

    Jeff Root Well-Known Member

    Ed,

    Since you're so busy, perhaps you could take the time to answer just the first two questions that Simon asked of you. These seem like very basic and straightforward questions to me given the time and thought you have invested in developing an entire treatment paradigm that depends on it.

    Respectfully,
    Jeff
     
  7. Jeff Root

    Jeff Root Well-Known Member

    Ed, is that you? :craig:
     

    Attached Files:

  8. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    Simon,
    I apologize for my absence although my schedule will not allow much time for this distraction in the foreseeable future either.

    My last post was in late April. I was just going out the door for a three city whirlwind trip. I would have divided my schedule but Don, Stu and Alyson were also engaged in multiple lectures as well that weekend. The last leg of my trip was the Southern Exposure meeting put on by OCPM. I flew from Chicago into Columbus, OH, where my wife had been waiting at the airport for 8 hrs. due to weather delays. Then we drove home after two nights at the Great Wolf Lodge. The whole 6 hours we were in a torrential downpour. When we arrived in Nashville there was a 1000 yr. flood. Nashville drains in our direction. Rivers were running 52 feet above normal and all roads running into our little county of 36K people, were washed out including many bridges. Whole neighborhoods, not in the 100 yr flood plain, with no flood insurance were underwater. Two story homes completely submerged. Many lost everything. We were declared a federal FEMA disaster area. All in all Sole Supports, Inc. fared quite well. Few employees suffered flood damage. I was one of them. This included our entire first floor, which is like a basement exposed in the back. All carpets ruined, padding and a whole lot of stuff. If it weren’t for some quick action by our daughters, I would have lost several valuable stringed instruments. My home office or man cave (as we call it in the states), from where I participate in this forum had to be gutted, painted, tiled, new molding as did every room on this floor (about 1600 sq. ft.). Under the porch we have a cinderblock storage room that got the worst water damage. Black mold began to form early.

    Unfortunately I had 14 weeks of back to back seminar travel planned which was compounded because one of my lecturers got sick and I had to double up. Meanwhile, I am still in the second stage of beta testing on a revolutionary new product release. Major breakthroughs were made this summer.
    Had to replace my HR manager suddenly.
    And we had a ten day Caribbean Cruise with Northwest Podiatry Foundation.
    To top it off I had a crown fail and have to be redone.
    I resurfaced and tiled my front porch to reduce future drainage problems and control runoff.
    Meanwhile, my wife suddenly comes down with RA. We are researching the Rheumatoid Disease Foundation’s approach using antiparasitic drugs.
    My youngest daughter who was in Ghana and Europe for the summer studying African Philosophy, gets hospitalized with a stomach ailment. After three hospitals in Ghana, she is transported to London, England (Wilshire Hospital) where she received brilliant care and flew back to Ghana to finish the summer educational program. But she needed to postpone her trip to Dublin, Copenhagen and Amsterdam due to exhaustion.
    My son Noah, who I work closely with, is also starting an additional business which requires some attention from me. Something in heavy metal recycling.
    My middle daughter meanwhile is hospitalized with chronic pneumonia.

    I have had a busy summer to say the least. It made me add more regular exercise to my schedule, loose weight and take better care of myself just to keep up with it all. I am lucky to have such a wonderful wife, incredible children and fantastic employees that have supported me.

    No worries….. I just lacked time and did not want to add the negativism of this site to my world. I really don’t want it now either, but I at least owe you the answers, so many are waiting for.

    I also received my custom made Moore Bettah Tenor Ukulele and have found it a welcome, relaxing hobby that I am enjoying daily…..getting quite good I might add.

    These are some of the many reasons why I took a vacation from the arena.

    As for questions 1-5, we don’t know. We have not asked those research questions specifically yet so we have no data, of the kind you are seeking, to say anything definitive.

    As for #6. We have ongoing research at an outstanding gait lab which is in the final months of data collection. A large RCCT. It is a one year study of n=60 utilizing pressure plates, in shoe sensors, six camera kinematic studies and needle EMG’s. I do not interfere with research that is ongoing unless I am conducting it myself. BTW, this study will also help with some of #1-5.

    One proof would be in the pudding….so to speak. Last year the US had a major economic downturn. The orthotic industry, as a whole, decreased by 6%. (Data Source: Five Vanderbilt Executive MBA students analyzed us recently and cited that data in their analysis). Our core business increased by about $1M USD. This is the largest single year increase in our history. All of these docs were using some other form of orthotic. We are certainly not the cheapest… in fact probably on the high end. These practitioners changed over because they wanted something better for their patients. Dissatisfied with the status quo they are paying more and moving up to better patient outcomes and becoming more successful both financially and medically. Other labs are trying to copy us… while you only criticize. Meanwhile we continue to innovate as we grow. How do we do that? Hypnosis…. as David Smith suggests. Must be.

    In 2009 insurance companies tightened their purse strings and Wallmart with Dr. SchollsTM spent millions of dollars on a national advertising campaign for their new “Custom Fit” prefabs (which resemble the lumpy, tilted pancakes used by the kool aid kids that dominate this site) One can differentiate them from your own orthotics by the higher level of science that Dr. Scholl appears to employ. Pressure plate mapping is critical when determining the effect of the forces on either side of the imaginary see-saw happening around the brilliantly located shadow of the STJ axis at RCSP in the transverse plane. You of course differentiate yourself brilliantly and follow with an exact calculation of forces and moments which leads to an exact calculation of the angulation of heel post, skive and other mods necessary to achieve the most favorable equilibrium. You are standing on the firm foundation of an exact science with all of your orthoses: NOT. Where exactly is your glass house?
    I forgot, forgive me; Only by studying at the feet of the master for a lifetime and drinking the sacred Kirby Kool aid can one achieve orthotic nirvana.

    Jeff,
    I do not engage you in debate because I like you. It is that simple. I have no desire to tear you apart. I wish you all success. We may disagree but I respect your dad and you. I may post a more accurate picture of one of your and my orthotics on the thread where Craig posted the MASS vs Neutral pics. If you prefer I will argue with you, but I will not allow such discussions to degenerate to personal attacks. That is all Kevin has…I expect better of you.
    Ed

    Good luck all.

    Ed Glaser, DPM
    CEO Sole Supports, Inc.
    www.solesupports.com
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2010
  9. Can't think why you'd expect negativity of anyone after such a well thought out and reasonable post ed!:rolleyes:

    Look forward to the research. The last one you funded (the l trotter study) was very useful. It gets a mention in
    next months podiatry now as an example of how misleading abstracts can be.

    Yes indeed.

    Ah. Oh well. Best you do another hatchet job on the straw man of what you think other people do then. :D

    Alcahol abuse also increased last year. Just goes to prove the health benefits of pickling ones liver I guess.
    Gee I should start drinking special brew, its sales have gone up so it must be great!

    Marketing? The rumour is, sometimes people buy rubbish because its polished shiny.

    I'm just certain Jeff is secretly relieved you're refraining from tearing him apart. We all thank you for your mercy. Jeff, thank
    the nice man for not tearing you apart.

    On an unrelated note, what do you think of Dr Shavelsons "vaulting" idea? He based it on your work apparently.
     
  10. Jeff Root

    Jeff Root Well-Known Member

    Me, or my argument? :butcher: If you look back on this thread you will see that the sarcasm and humor resulted out of frustration when Dr. Glasser suddenly disappeared from the forum at the very moment he was asked to answer some critical questions concerning his theory of orthotic therapy. I don't think those question would required attacking me personally nor the work or theories of Dr. Root. The questions were directly related to the application of MASS theory.

    I will restate two of Simon's excellent questions and I would again be interested to hear how Dr. Glasser would defend his approach relative to these questions. I have been waiting three and one half months for the answer.
    What I did on my summer vacation is probably of no interest to anyone on this forum nor does it have anything to do with the topic. It did however remind me of the classic Cheech and Chong routine "Sister Mary Elephant". For the record Ed, I would not have posted the previous jabs at you had I not known that you do have a sense of humor.

    Sister Mary Elephant
    STUDENT:
    Okay. The first day, no, my vacation, what I did on my summer vacation, the first day on my vacation, I woke up.
    Then, I went downtown to look for a job.
    Then I hung out in front of the drugstore.
    The second day on my summer vacation, I woke up.
    Then I went downtown to look for a job.
    Then I hung out in front of the drugstore.
    The third day on my summer vacation, I woke up...

    TEACHER:
    Now that's fine, young man!

    STUDENT :
    ...Then I went downtown to look for a job...

    TEACHER:
    Now that's fine, young man!

    STUDENT :
    ...Then I got a job, keeping people from hanging around in front of the drugstore.
    The fourth day on my...
     
  11. Jeff Root

    Jeff Root Well-Known Member

    That's Glaser. Sorry Ed, only one cup of coffee so far!
     
  12. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    As I stated, the data has not been collected as of yet. We hope to know that at some point. They are interesting questions. I believe that the same question has been answered by Mike Piernowski on Neutral position orthoses however. You can look up the reference. BTW only one s in Glaser.


    We have a saying in Tennessee. “If the lord’s willing and the creek don’t rise.” Well, the creek rose….literally. I assessed what is important in my life and answering these questions was not on the list...... below Ukulele practice….which is way more fun, educational and interesting.

    Thanks for the amusing joke, though.....What does it have to do with Elephants?
    Ed
     
  13. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    Is Alcahol the UK spelling?

    Robert, you are so witty.

    You are right, I might be able to convince some doctors with a well thought out, logical presentation of the connection between posture and function. But you would think that after a few failures, they would see through the smoke and mirrors and change back to the Bag of Tricks approach, the tilted pancake approach or at least, sign up to study at the feet of the master.

    That would make us a definite flash in the pan. After all, you seem to see right through me.

    But we seem to continue to expand for eighteen years. Strange. What’s weird is that we seem to retain customers for years and years…..and they attribute part of their success to the results they get with our product. I guess that I should stop paying attention to the huge volume of positive feedback I get from satisfied users who are getting terrific results on real patients. Instead, I find it gratifying…

    Maybe instead I should concentrate on your theoretical criticisms. Your vast hypothetical experience with our product and MASS position far outweighs their actual experience. In your mind anyway.

    ..Although I would not subject them to the abuse of this arena…. I like them too much.

    How would you or Kevin characterize anyone who uses Sole Supports or any other MASS orthotic? Fools? Uneducated? Dumb? Misguided? I just wonder. What is their motivation? It is not to save money. Are they evil? Hypnotized? Sadists? Terrorists?
    Insurgents?

    Or are they getting better results than they did before?

    The market votes with its feet.....and they continue to walk our way.

    Thanks,
    Ed
     
  14. It is if you're recovering from it. ;)

    Ok, shall we try being civil?

    I remain unconvinced that the fact that people use your product is proof of efficacy. Millions of people use homeopathy. Does that convince you to start treating foot pain with a 40c solution of duck liver (i'm guessing on the duck liver)? Of course it doesn't and why should it? MBTs and shape ups have grown exponentially and have many many patients who swear by them, but recent research shows they just don't do what they claim. Do you plan to switch from MASS orthotics to prescribing MBTs to anyone as the makers would suggest? I can show you websites where barefoot runners talk in crowds about how they took off their orthotics and insoles and went barefoot and their pain stopped! Is that proof that barefooting is better than orthotics?


    If we, as healthcare providers, demanded nothing more than a growing company and glowing testimonials to switch from what we are doing to a new product we would be doing it all the time! We'd have gone from PCI's to Sole supports, to foot vaults, to MBTs, to barefooting, to quadrasteps etc ad infinitum!

    So whilst the growth of your business can and should give you a warm glow, its not really an argument for the efficacy of the MASS method over any other.

    Well given that some of my patients are happily walking around with insoles cast in something like a mass position, or even more agressive devices, I can't really use any of the bad words there.

    To paraphrase obi wan, only an evangelical deals in absolutes. You seem to assume that anyone who does not use Sole Supports tm on every patient, and believes wholesale the paradigm you've created uses exclusively the 40 year old protocol. MASS is, at core, an insole with no rf post and a very high medial arch. Thats not a new idea and not one which runs contrary to tissue stress OR the SALRE mindset.

    So If you want me to pick some adjectives for someone who limits themselves to JUST MASS orthotics it would be the same word I would use on someone who uses JUST STJ neutral root devices, JUST a certain pre fab or indeed ONLY drives fords, ONLY eats KFC or ONLY likes apple computers.

    The words would be unimaginative, blinkered, evangelical, that style of thing. Nothing wrong with the MASS postion (IMO), but to suggest it is best for everyone requires a bit of justifying.

    Since you don't have the evidence to answer simons questions, how about this one. You advocate MASS as the optimal postion, as superior to neutral because it is higher, more functional, whatever. If I patented a casting postion whereby I cast in MASS the applied a 3.5 degree through wedge to invert the STJ a little further, (lets call it MASS+) would that be superior to MASS? If not, why not?

    Regards
    Robert
     
  15. This bit of your post was what I was thinking - but I was going ask Ed

    When should MASS and sole supports not be used ?

    IE I beleive in horses for courses. Sometimes high arch sometimes low etc.
     
  16. drsha

    drsha Banned

    Sorry for your personal woes. I hope they dampen and clear your mind for enjoying life to the fullest.

    As to your uplifting posting.


    DITTO


    DOTTO


    DITTO

    I applaud your success and the advances (revisits? who cares) that you have made and continue to make to biomechanics.

    Here's to Vaulting (Jeff Root stated on The Arena that I am The Father of Vaulting!! as I am the only internet reference).

    Thanks Jeff

    Dennis
     
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