Podiatrists adopting Doctor title in the UK

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Hello fellow Foot Specialists,

I am New to the site, but have been a Podiatrist for 5 years now. I work mainly for the NHS, but also in the private sector.

I am a Specialist Podiatrist and work in the area of MSK Podiatry. I also have completed my PGDip in Lower Limb Biomechanics and am a Non-medical prescriber.

I have studied hard at an undergraduate level and have continued to study hard at a Postgrad level also. I feel that Podiatrists as the Health Professional concerned with the foot and the lower limb should be able to adopt the honorary title of Doctor of Podiatry as do dentists and Chiropractors.

I feel that this will give us more standing in the medical field, increase the publics awareness of who we are and what Podiatrists do and so will subsequently help us when it comes to the time of GP consortiums within the NHS.

Before, dentists said that they adopted the title because they study for 5 years, however CHiropractors have also adopted the title but only train for 4 years. Podiatrists usually train for 3 years, but training could mimic Chiropratcic training and we could have a 4th pre-registration year. I think this would also be of bnenfit for the NHS as it would re-coup some of the money spent in tuition fees for Podiatry students - some of which go straight to work in private practice.

Podiatrists in Austrailia - a training and education system which is similar to ours are already using the title Doctor - as lond as they do not mislead the public into believing that they are register medical practitioners.

In terms of our scope of practice I feel that we mimic dentistry extremly closely - routine general maintenance work, biomechanics, surgery, use of LA's, use of POM's, the use of surgical instruments, decontamination/sterilisation - the list goes on - therefore I to think that Pods should be entitled to use the honorary title of Dr of Podiatry/Podiatric medicine in the same way as Dentists and Chiropractors do.

Well thats my rant over - I would like to hear what anyone els has to say on this topic!?igs:

 

Mr, Mrs, Ms. Miss Edwards, how would using the title of Dr. change your day-to-day business? Why do you want the title of Dr. bestowed upon you without having earned it? I have earned the right to use the title Dr. before my name, yet I rarely do. In fact my close friends call me "dog" and my patients: "Simon". It's all about confidence in your own abilities, it's not about titles.

 

Thanks for your reply -

The main reason really I guess is respect.

I treat my patients well, I get good results and I feel my own patients respect me for what I do for them - but as a profession I dont think the public really know what we do, that our scope of practice has increased over the years and that we are professionals - just like the dentist!

I just though it may help? Dentists and Chiropractors seem to get this respect.


Ms Edwards

 

oops! thats Mr!

 

Mr Edwards,

Had a bad day today by any chance??

Chin up son, we all have em.

Ian

 

Confidence and experience means that my patients all too frequently call me 'doctor'. I'm afraid its a fallacy that titles are meaningless. They mean something to the public, and confer a a certain level of professional meaning within the health system.

It might be a frightful 'w*nk' to some, but there are legitimate questions that the title raises. Just in the way there is a BIG difference in the title of 'chiropodist' and 'podiatrist' in this country (Oz). Labels mean something.

As our universities move in the direction of conferring Doctor of Podiatric Medicine degrees at post grad level (eg UWA) as the base registrable qualification, the issue will be raised higher and higher - until everyone is eventually a 'DPM'.

Then, problem solved. For now, I'm all for it and see only benefits.

LL

 

Forgive me if I have this wrong, but is not the title Doctor reserved for those with significant academic achievement, not simply an undergraduate degree.

If this was adopted would we not see Dr paramedics, Dr nurses - it would be very confusing

 

In the Commonwealth (i am in Australia, mind you), the title of doctor has been an honorary title traditionally given to medical and dental graduates. As many will argue, the only true academic doctorate is a PhD, or more recently a professional doctorate. Medical and dental degrees have traditionally (with more recent exceptions) been undergraduate programs.

In my country, there is now no rule as to who may or may not call themselves by the title 'doctor', much to the chagrin of the medical profession. However over the years dentists, chiropractors, osteopaths, and more recently, podiatrists and optometrists, have adopted the title. Now that we have a national registration scheme, it would appear to have been too difficult to regulate this area without causing much anger in the non-medical professions (dentistry in particular).

In the US, the situation is different since most medically oriented professional degrees are taught at doctoral level in professional schools. Hence all podiatrists, optometrists, dentists and the like are more formally granted a professional doctorate. This trend is now emerging in Australia in some of the higher status universities such as the University of Melbourne and the University of Western Australia - where programs in things such as physiotherapy, optometry and podiatry are moving to doctoral level as the registrable degree.

My prediction is that in 10-20 years all health profession programs in Australia (and perhaps the Commonwealth) will be taught at this level, driven by the demand of the professional bodies who feel that higher level academic programs will equate to greater status and equality of their members with the medical profession.

LL

 

peace,

In UK at present you can only use the title "Doctor" if you have either,

a medical degree from a recognised university or

a degree in any subject and have then done further academic study to obtain a PhD = Doctor of Philosophy or

have completed a 4 year degree in Chiropracty (followed by one year postgraduate training), in which case you are a Doctor of Chiropracty but can only use the title in conjunction with your work.

HTH

regards

Catfoot

 

Or..... if you are a well known radio DJ....

 

Thanks for all of your responses to the thread!

Perhaps yesterday was just a bad day - but the information the thread has already raised regarding Oz training in the future being offered at Postgrad level like the US leaves me feeling that we in the UK should really be doing the same.

We dond want to be left on the shelf do we?!? At the present time, the US Podiatric medical training is unique, but if Oz follow suit, then Us UK Pods are once again left trailing behind.

I'm not saying that all Podiatrists should get the title of Dr from just studying an UG level for 3 years, but like the US and the future Oz model - I think we need to increase the length of thraining, increase our scope of practice so more specialised interventions and knowledge are aquired in UK podiatric training. At the end of this we should have a pre reg year which again benefits the NHS, the Podiatrist and is a reward from the government for investing in our training by paying for our tuition fees.

I have read threads on here about the training in parts of Canada, where it is seen to be fairly low and not even at degree level - UK Pods, we dont want to be in this situation in the future, do we!?

I think the Society of Chiropodists and Podiatrists should look at this proposal and consider the training proposal put forward by Dr Kilmartin (i think).

Thanks,

Edwards

 

Catfoot

In the U.K. (as noted above), Dental Surgeons (dentists) also use the title 'Dr'. having undergone the degree of Bachelor of Dental Surgery.

As Simon and LL have pointed out, strictly speaking, only someone who has undertaken the rigorous academic procedure to the appropriate level to be awarded the highest academic award a recognised university can bestow is entitled to use the title of 'Doctor'. However, using this definition, the vast majority of Medical Practitioners in this country (UK) would have the title stripped from them as they are Bachelors of Medicine and Bachelors of Surgery 'only'. Many years ago, the Medical Profession decided to dignify themselves by adopting the title and now become very exercised when any other profession follows their lead. This is hypocrisy of the highest order, and has recently been seen in Orthopaedic Surgeons attacking Podiatric Surgeons.

As LL also points out that in Oz, the title is not actually protected. In the UK also, anybody can use the title as long as they do not attempt to pass themselves off as a medical practitioner.

Other countries have different stances - the US medical profession is no better or worse trained than their counterparts in the UK or Commonwealth, but their universities simply award the Doctorate at the completion of medical training, whereas historically the UK and Commonwealth countries do not. In Germany, for example, the position is different again and far more doctorates are recognised.

The question is not therefore 'can we' in the UK - the Aussies have already shown that we can - the question is do we wish to, and if we do, at what level and with what post-graduate (if any) qualifications do we do so. Whether we proceed or not must be by the will of the profession and without fear nor favour of the medical profession or any regulatory body. Ideally, it should be done in consultation with our colleagues in other countries - particularly the Commonwealth countries, so that a consensus on training and standards can be arrived at.

All the best

Bill Liggins

 

Hello:

Doctor = Doctorate.

Here in the USA, anyone who earns a doctorate degree can use the title Doctor. This is usually based on the number of credit hours received in any given didactic endeavor.

So whether you are a clinical psychologist, dentist, veterinarian, podiatrist, medical doctor, Ph.D. in education.....it doesn't matter, you have earned a doctorate degree in your field, (usually 120 credits after a Bachelors degree)

Fairly straight forward. It's not a title you "adopt" it's a title you have earned are are entitled to use.

Steve (Dr. Arbes that is!!!!!)

 

Hi,

I think you make some great points Bill!! Do you think this is something the profession should consider then Bill?

Dr Sarbes - in the UK its different as only people with Phd's hold doctorates as all other professions in the UK are studied at an undergraduage level i.e bachelor level - BSc Podiaty, BDS (dental surgery), MBBS (Medicine/Surgery), BSc Chiropractic. Even still the title Dr is awarded to dentists, medical doctors and Chiropractors in the UK.

Edwards.

 

As pointed out by LL, Simon, DEdwards and self, different countries, different customs, generally relating to history. In the Commonwealth countries Masters degrees follow Bachelors and only then Doctorates. The USA DPM for instance, is not recognised in the U.K. The ultimate aim for Podiatry must be equality of achievement resulting in Doctorates but in the meantime all routes must be considered to achieve that aim, including following the U.K. medical profession, as has been done in Oz.

One of the interesting things is that in the UK surgeons are called 'Mr' and in this context the title outranks 'Dr', or so the surgeons like to think!

Bill (Mr Liggins)

 

Hi DEdwards

A loaded question! I think the profession should consider all routes that might take it forward. However, that is only a 'consider' because 'there's may a slip 'tween cup and lip'!

All the best

Bill

 

LL, The UniMelb entry to Practice Doctor Of Physiotherapy, despitr its title, is not at Doctoral level!
Both the universities academic board and independant review have deemed this to be a masters course, as mentioned in the Brochure on page 2.
"The Doctor of Physiotherapy is a three year entry to practice graduate masters level program." (that's a total of 6 yrs!)
The graduates of this program may have a DPhysio, but willl not be bestowed with the title Dr by the university (though nothing to stop them using it!)

This is similar to the longer running Juris Doctor or JD that UniMelb have been running as a graduate law degree.

"The Melbourne JD is a graduate law degree, leading to admission to practise as a Barrister and Solicitor of the Supreme Court of Victoria. JD stands for Juris Doctor and is classified as a Masters by Coursework program."

I am not sure on the stance of the UWA DPM course at present, but the entry to practice course is still a 4 Yr BPodM

 

in many other EU countries where they have similar training to the UK in Podiatry and now with cross EU recognition of qualification Pods all take and regularly use the title Dr.

was recently lecturing in Portugal and all Pods there with BSc podiatry use the Title Dr, as they do in Malta- even UK trained Pods can legally use the Title Dr.

we need harmonisation across the EU, as qualifications have to be recognised now. this will then lead to more public recognition and a greater understanding of Pods and the scope of practice.

 

Some good points robby,

I think like you said harmonisation of title/qualifications is the key across the EU.

Edwards

 

Wish i went to plymouth now

 

Why does it have to be a DPM? how about a good old British tradition: a double award, Bachelor of Podiatric Medicine Bachelor of Podiatric Surgery, or Bachelor of Podiatric Medicine and Surgery? Just like our British "Doctor".

 

I am a podiatrist of 27 years with a BSc, MSc, and currently studying for my second post grad certificate. I am also entering my third year of a traditional PhD. I am afraid I would be heartily fed up to see individuals who have not completed a doctorate degree using 'Dr'. If podiatrists who do not gain a PhD are allowed to use 'Dr' then all other AHPs and nurses should also be able to use the title also. If this was not the case, I for one would ensure that all my healthcare academic colleagues complain and get nurses out against it. After all, they have more 'clout' than we do!

 

I have no strong feelings on this issue. However, the above quotation (which sadly, like so many is not given over the poster's name) begs one crucial question. Alone amongst the PAMS, podiatrists enjoy right of consultation, examination and diagnosis without oversight from a medic. This independence does perhaps entitle the profession to consider the title.

Bill Liggins