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Relative Importance of STJ Motion

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by EdGlaser, Nov 23, 2010.

  1. Graham

    Graham RIP

    Silence is Golden Ed!:sinking:
     
  2. I think I read a fair few research papers, the wife thinks too many - but Ive never come across the use of a flat foam "prefab" used to compair another device to.

    Ive tried researching but got nowhere, Ed I know you have a backlog of questions can you show some other research which used this common tool.

    Anyone else heard of this ?

    This is a real question not taking the piss.

    I would have assumed that a control group would have no intervention is that wrong ?
     
  3. Landorf used a moulded very low density foam as a sham orthotic in his controlled trial for plantar fasciitis. He called this a "sham" orthotic. Since the study Ed funded used an off the shelf (prefabricated) flat foam insole, semantically you could say that it was a prefabricated orthosis; not necessarily what a health professional might think of as a prefabricated foot orthosis. Yet semantically arguable. Which is how marketing works.

    The really interesting thing about that study is how the MASS devices didn't work if the flat "prefabricated" devices had been worn first by the subjects in the trial. In other words, a few weeks in the flat pieces of foam beforehand, stopped the MASS devices from working- why should that be if MASS devices work on "posture"?
     
  4. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    Sorry All for a two day absence. I am traveling again and recovering from an upper respiratory infection.
    I last posted on the 28th. 29th I had to work in the morning and drive / fly / drive in the afternoon and prepare for my lecture. Today I delivered another successful lecture and had a great afternoon boating and dinner at a nice seaside bistro. Life is good.

    Nothing I just read even approximates a defense of SALRE.....even the weapon stuff or Wedemyer's lunacy. All the deficiencies I have pointed out are solid. The 3D force diagrams are correct and have been checked by biomedical and mechanical engineers and a physicist. The concept of single axis analysis is lacking and the choice of the STJ axis is wrong. SALRE is dying and no amount of hero worship can save it. Think about what you are saying....your arguments are weak.
    I may have time tomorrow to directly answer some of the posts.....if I feel better. If not, I have no time Thursday between lecture and travel. This weekend is booked solid with Christmas parties, out of town guests and a Michael Buble' concert. You will have to wait till next week when I have time.
    Ed
     
  5. Thanks Simon - A good point on "posture" and I was thinking along the lines of Kleg - which soft foam would change the foot interface which may lead to changes in Kleg.?
     
  6. Glad you had a nice few days.
     
  7. I made a video!!

    Look out for the axial location device. Shameless ripoff of the Kirby / Spooner one.

    I don't have access to a production studio or a cameraman Quite as good as Ed's but hopefully the content will be better ;)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6cAFsMA-lE
     
  8. Whilst it's usually entertaining and occasionally enlightening to read some of your posts and subsequent replies they generate, you do your case no favours whatsoever, Ed, when you submit this kind of diatribe against whoever may be in your sights at the time. Whatever merit your product or theories may have is rapidly annulled in the face of such unremitting paranoid obduracy - and that is the great shame of it all.
     
  9. Yeah, that was the first one I ever made. White ash, 43lb pull. Always going to have a soft spot for that one.
     
  10. Graham

    Graham RIP

    We are all busy Ed! I guess I'll have to re-post for the third time the questions I would like answered? Perhaps we should all do this? Although this may be futile.

    "Resistance is futile! You will be assimilated"!

    Perhaps MASS is a cover up for the Borg?

    "Blatant Orifice Regurgitating Garbage"

    Come on Ed! Answer our questions with substance not with religious fundamentalism!

    Please?
     
  11. Ed while I hope you get better - perhaps drop the condescending tone SALRE is not dying by your arguments, you just ignore and don´t answer questions.

    I think we have all said over the last month SALRE is part of the process not the only part.

    So What is Posture of the foot ?

    what is correct posture of the foot ?

    when is important to have correct posture of the foot during the gait cycle?

    If you can answer these after Simon's, Eric´s, Robert´s, Grahams et al questions then I will ask this next :

    How does changing someone´s posture if that´s possible, target the right stressed tissue.
     
  12. C'mon guys. In fairness as Graham says we ARE all busy. As frustrating as it is, lets keep it in the realms of the civil. Otherwise the thread will degenerate into name calling and generalities like

    That just becaomes a "yes it is, no it isn't" debate.

    Lets stay specific and on topic. That way the facts and the arguments can stand and people can make their OWN minds up whether Eds representation of SALRE is fair and accurate or not. And remember that THIS thread is about SALRE rather than MASS. We can dissect MASS in another thread but MASS being wrong would not make SALRE right so it is peripheral to this argument.

    On which note, the ball is squarely in your court Ed.

    I contend that you have made a fundamental error in the point you made on that slide. I've explained reasoning, provided examples. I've not been abusive or rude and I have stayed on topic. I've dealt in specifics, not generalities and I've played the ball not the man. I hope you can do likewise.
    Please answer, specifically.
     
  13. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    I am writing a long and involved response to all of the posts I have read since the 28th and I came across this gem and had to respond.

    Yes, absolutely. We sign a research contract that includes a "right to publish" clause. Other labs have offered funding to Mike P. and Leslie but they always balk at that clause and retract their offers. If I was doing biased research, as you suggest, I would not have published that article at all....I would have criticized the methods and had it redone to illustrate a point. But I have NO control. It gets published whether it favors my ideas or not. The very publication of this article proves that there are no strings attached to my research funding.....and no bias on the part of Mike, Les or anyone I fund research with. Your implication is unfounded and offensive.

    Simon keeps bringing up the fact that I pay my graphic artists to produce illustrations. That is equally irrelevant. These are illustrations not scientific data. Kevin uses illustrations......if he pays someone to draw them are they automatically wrong? Of course they illustrate what I PAY them to. How evil is that. I PAY my employees to do a job for me. Did you all just wake up this morning to find that you are living in a capitalist society where people get paid for their labor? Do your employees get paid? Do they do generally what you ask them to? If so are they are just ignorant sheep following your evil intentions or prostitutes who will do anything to please their malevolent master?

    Firstly, my employees are free thinkers, free to disagree with me, free to work somewhere else, and they have the same intention that I do, to MAKE PEOPLE BETTER. That is why they LOVE working for me. Or maybe they are just being paid to say that. Hey, maybe you could pay them to hate me.

    Ed
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2010
  14. Amen.
     
  15. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    Thank you Robert.

    In your force diagram in post #84 attached below, there are two axes. There is no moment around the red circle axis ‘A’ by the green line force but there is a moment arm around the axis between the angled black line and the floor; axis ‘B’….. so therefore motion may occur around that second axis. The ground reactive force in that case is an upward force exerted where the black line contacts the ground and it will have a moment arm around the red circle axis ‘A’. Very true for that diagram.

    However, in the case of the STJ axis, the black tilted line IS the STJ axis….. in other words both forces pass through the axis. As in the third diagram. So, your diagram is correct but does not depict the actual direction of the STJ axis which connects both forces and therefore has no moment arms.

    ed
     

    Attached Files:

  16. The Diagram I drew, as the one of yours, is a frontal plane slice through the ankle. Axis A IS the sub talar joint axis. Your force A is the downforce and your force B is the GRF (as drawn on your diagram). The Line you have draw on as the STJ axis is along the lever arm.

    This should be clear from the position of the ground. When I have time I'll superimpose your diagram to the right over your slide on page 20.
     
  17. [​IMG]

    I think I see where the confusion lies. You've flipped SALRE up by 90 degree. If the axis shown in this diagram was as on the picture (ie in the frontal plane because its a flat image) then what you say would be true. But of course this is an axis SHADOW! because the axis actually lies between the fronatal and horizontal plane there is moment around it.

    Treat the above as a frontal plane slice taken level with the talus.
     
  18. Robert, I think the point you are trying to make is that even though both forces in isolation have no lever arm to the STJ axis as shown in the 3D diagram, if we re-draw the diagram as frontal plane 2D view such that it is perpendicular to the frontal plane the forces as defined would not be in alignment since the STJ axis is not perpendicular to the frontal plane. So if we ignore the axis for one minute and remove it from the diagram and look only at the forces in our frontal plane view of the above diagram, we should have a frontal plane force couple created by the non-coincident forces, which should want to generate rotation of / between the segments? If unopposed, and this force couple created rotation between the segments then an instantaneous axis of rotation should also be created? i.e., the axis isn't sitting there like a knitting needle waiting to be acted upon as it is in the diagram above, rather the axis is created by the movement between the segments. Is that what you are trying to say here, Robert? Or, are you talking about directly opposing forces acting across a bent column which will also tend to cause rotation between the segments? i.e if we rotated the diagram such that the STJ axis in the diagram was perpendicular to the reference plane, the forces should be directly opposite and in alignment but the segments should form a bent column? Or both? Or neither?
     
  19. The first thing. But I was trying to say it in a way that those with less of an understanding of the terminology of physics will find it easier to follow. This thread, though primarily a discussion between some of the experts in the science, is also being followed by many who are less up on terminology. ;)
     
  20. Μιλώ μόνο την επιστήμη και τον Έλληνα
     
  21. Η επιστήμη είναι ελληνικά σοι περισσότεροι.
     
  22. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Μπορώ να παίξω;
     
  23. Τι είστε benching αυτές τις μέρες;
     
  24. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Περίπου 220
     
  25. Και Ι. Και πώς είναι ο κόκκοράς σας στα στεροειδή;
     
  26. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Έχει συρρικνωθεί σε μια δυσάρεστη 8,5 ίντσες
     
  27. Δεν θα δίπλωνα τον κόκκορά μου στο μισό για καθένα
     
  28. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Same old, no answers, no explanations, no validity or proof, same straw man argument, just another stall tactic. You should pay your team to come up with yet another acronym that includes a cucumber, at least we can quantify produce.
     
  29. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    Αυτό είναι πολύ αστείο όταν μεταφράζετε το τελευταίο σχόλιο πρώτα
     
  30. Συρρικνωμένος σε 8.5 ίντσες;; σεβασμός! Αυτό που ήταν αυτός πριν από το χιόνι;!
     
  31. efuller

    efuller MVP

    Ed, I can't let the quote below be the last word here.

    You must have missed my posts on this thread #106 and #107. There was a defense of your criticisms of SALRE. You can't make the above statement without answering those criticisms.


    See posts #106 and #107. In those posts I showed that none of your criticisms were solid.

    How can you say the following is solid?

    From Ed's post (#98)
    Ugly??? Moment = Force x distance is just as simple and beautiful as the equations you cited.

    We'll say it again. SALRE is examination of one joint axis and when you add that to examination of other joints you can understand how the foot works. Ed, in your own explanations of why a change in posture is good you describe how you put the talar head more on top of the anterior facet of the calcaneus. That is STJ supination you are using to describe a part of the change in posture. So, when you talk about posture are you ignoring examination of all joints of the foot.

    Back to you, Ed.

    Please don't say in your presentations that we were unable to defend SALRE, it would be completely untrue.

    Eric
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2010
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