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Rothbart Again??!!

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Kevin Kirby, Sep 9, 2009.

  1. Graham

    Graham RIP

    You should send a pair to Tiger woods wife. Apparently the wedge she chose had a disastrous effect on Tigers postural control!
  2. I'll have a pair of each, whichever pair I'm wearing when I solve the question to the meaning of life I'll keep. Children- they're the meaning of life! ****, I peaked too soon without my insoles.

    Edit- Freud, come over here there's something we need to talk about.
  3. That's the first Tiger Woods joke I've heard and probably the best that I will hear- genius.:drinks:D:D:D
  4. Reports indicate that......... for the past 12 months..........Tiger Woods had been continuing to work on his stroke.........guess his wife finally found out..........:rolleyes:
  5. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Tiger Woods crashed into a fire hydrant and a tree. He couldn’t decide between a wood and an iron.

    Tiger Woods is so rich that he owns lots of expensive cars. Now he has a hole in one.

    What's the difference between a car and a golf ball? Tiger can drive a ball 400 yards.

    Tiger Woods wasn't seriously injured in the crash, but he's still below par.
  6. You appear to have opened the flood gates, Graham.
  7. Graham

    Graham RIP

    Tigers wife just signed an endorsement deal with Ping. They were amaized at how well she hit the Driver :)!
  8. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Tiger's new movie is out: Crouching Tiger, Hidden Hydrant.

    Tiger is now in trouble with his sponsor Gillette because he said that "this was the closest shave I have had yet"

    Apparently the police asked Tiger's wife how many times she hit him. She said "I don't know exactly… but put me down for a 5."
  9. here´s the wife ( Elin ) and Tiger maybe a insole might help him?

    Attached Files:

  10. Thanks, Mike.....made my morning!
  11. Lytham St Annes in 2012 waits with anticipation...

    Attached Files:

  12. Yet again another unsolicited mail arrives in my inbox this morning, despite the source previously being labelled as spam! More Rhubarb....


    Attached Files:

  13. dougpotter

    dougpotter Active Member

    I bought a Rothbart about a month ago seeking relief from symptoms of plantar fasciitis. The Rothbart is basically a flat insole with a Morton's extension, with an option to add a medial longitudinal arch "cookie" to the insoles. I've been making these for myself, minus the arch cookie, for 30 years. I should have taken the advice from docs here--it would have saved me nearly $70.00.
  14. Yeah but then you'd have missed out on all the other benefits pci's offer that other devices don't. The less droopy eyelids. The improved gastrointesterinal transit. The improved cognitive function from better blood flow to the brain... The less distorted face.
  15. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    And you'll get pregnant!
  16. Graham

    Graham RIP

    It's a miracle!!!:eek:
  17. Chirotech

    Chirotech Member

    They just have a seminar over the weekend about PCI's, it seems like they are a stimulating device using body's own mechanism to improved foot functions by stimulating and controlling the forefoot, and i guess the material can be improved in terms of control & durability.... might be beneficial for some people ...
  18. Might not...
  19. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    What mechanism are they claiming to stimulate in achieving improved foot function? Proving 'postural control' of the foot with a CFO is difficult enough (and disproved by many studies I believe) but among their other claims on the PCI website are that these nifty inserts help everything from TMJ disorders to fertility problems. I wonder if there is any hard data anywhere to support any of this or Rothbart's contention that 85% of patients suffer a "Rothbart's Foot":

    [The problem is that a Rothbart's Foot Structure has an elevated first metatarsal so sensing ground contact occurs too late in the gait cycle. Posture Control Insoles® are essentially a timing device providing an earlier sensory input to the first metatarsal and big toe resulting in the foot mowing toward supination.]

    There are so many holes in Rothbart's claims you could drive a truck through them and since I have been here on PA he has never come out to defend his theories, claims and products.

    Did you become a PCI insole provider Chirotech and if so why please?

  20. Ah, they were the days. Dennis and ed are good fun but Brian and the posturettes were a class act. Defending, with straight faces, the evidence for the infertility cure. Good times.

    Rothbarts foot is indicated by a foot with the 1st met off the ground in neutral weight bearing. When I was at school we called that "forefoot varus / supinatus" in which case 80% is about right.
  21. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    In case anyone missed post#2 in this thread:
    we still waiting.
  22. Because they are defending an irrational position?
  23. Now that's what I call podiatric marketing volume 2, straight into our chart and in at no. 2, But, holding on to to the top spot, despite being deleted, it's: "thirty years of heel pain, gone". So, why wouldn't anyone target that 20%.....? :rolleyes:
  24. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Its interesting that when I began learning about custom foot orthoses, this statistic was often quoted in numerous articles. I saw a lot of forefoot varus in those days (especially observing others casting) as well, coincidence? As time has gone on I rarely see true forefoot varus anymore, in fact I see a lot more forefoot valgus!

    Craig would you agree that true forefoot varus is not as common as reported in some of the literature?
  25. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    The last cohort study we did in which several people did the assessments (and agreed on it) we got a prevalance of forefoot varus of 1.6% (I would have to dig out the data later, but there were a lot more forefoot supinatus).
  26. Brians test looks only at position. The 80% stat comes from (I think) garbalosa which also only looks at position. So I guess both of these are technically looking for foefoot invertus which is common as dirt. But of course it all depends how you work out your neutral, and whether you draw lines on calcs.

    He describes Rothbarts foot as being caused by a deformity in the talar head, failing to fully unwind. That, to me, is forefoot varus. Very rare.

    It's no different to people who make insoles to treat "overpronation". Meaning any pronation. Another situation which exists in almost anyone. Rule one of marketing is create the need. Tell normal people they are deformed and they'll pay to get it fixed!

    And of course as the UK distributor of pci's writes, supinatirs are pronators in disguise. Capturing the other 20%.
  27. Classic, who are these people ?

    Good Grief as Ian said a while ago it´s enough to make you cry into your cornflakes .
  28. This should explain everything.


    And here is your 2 minute online self assessment


    I hate to put these up. I know they cause Ian actual physical pain.
  29. It's interesting to note with this thread that its all new to a few people, and doubtless a lot of lurkers as well. So for their benefit here is a sample of Brian Rothbart and his proprioceptive therapy. Its more than slightly distasteful, to the point of being nauseating which is why it should be kept in the forefront of peoples minds when considering the work of this man.

    From his website.


    Here is another one he "cured" of Downs

    Oh and cures droopy eyelids as well. Instantly.


    As Simon Hicks (legion) likes to say, Look at it, say what it is.
  30. efuller

    efuller MVP

    Wow, how did you get people to agree on the measurement?

    Did they all use the same heel bisection?
    How did they decide how much to load the foot when measuring. How do they know the chose the right amount of load to get the true forefoot to rearfoot relationship? :D
    How did they agree on which feet had supinatus and which did not?
    Did you add to the Normal and Abnormal function of the foot vol I protocol for measurement of forefoot to rearfoot relationship? It is just so hard to imagine a group of people agreeing on what someone's forefoot to rearfoot relationship should be.
    How often did they disagree?

  31. I agree with you here, Eric. From what I have seen in teaching these techniques myself early on in my career, and in teaching also as a Biomechanics Fellow, being able to compare my measurements to what my Biomechanics Professors such as Ron Valmassy and Chris Smith would determine on the same feet, at best, the forefoot to rearfoot measurment was +/- 5 degrees.

    This means that unless the examiners can agree on where the subtalar joint neutral position is and on how to accurately bisect the calcaneus, the forefoot to rearfoot relationship, in my opinion, is a useless measurement with high variability when comparing one examiner to another, and is even more useless when comparing the examiners from different podiatry schools or different countries.
  32. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    I have had dialogue with the Australian dispensers (an osteopath in Sydney) of these insoles. I even have a pair myself (3.5mm variety) which I have used extensively (everyday walking as well as running), thus feel I am (at least somewhat) qualified/experienced to make comments on issues surrounding PCI's... & have. Even received 'colourful' emails from disgruntled individuals who have viewed these comments... albeit, they were anonymous with bogus/childish return email addresses (i.e. *#$%#!@podiatryreallysucks.com :wacko:) - which I feel is rather cowardly.

    Yep, I've seen this also. Yet, the Australian dispensers are quite willing to conduct an expensive two day training course on the prescribing of these also expensive rubber inlays... open to osteopaths, dentists & massage therapists. Yet the ignorant (as well as pain driven gullible) can apparently diagnose & prescribe for themselves over the internet in the stated 2 minutes! Rothbart must know about this & hence must condone this practice! There are no "buts" about it - he must know, thus (at least somewhat) responsible (which I feel is hardly good professional conduct).

    I believe I received some physical & emotional pain when I viewed post # 68 & 69. I'm sure none of us here want to come across as chronic naysayers (due to the nature of some of the topics on this biomechanics forum) but there comes a time when enough is enough (i.e. posts 68 & 69) & there develops an overwhelming desire to see substantiated evidence/reasoning to support such miraculous claims... or report such claims & practices to the appropriate governing bodies/authorities... or at the very least critique it.

    For those concerned (prescribers, endorsers of PCI's)... I can't think of a better place than here to substantiate your evidence/reasoning relating to the above discussed issues. I myself desire to seek truth & express opinions on issues that I sincerely believe to be of truth. You at least owe it to yourselves & your patients to put forward a sincere attempt to provide credible answers/evidence to the above issues!
  33. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Dosen't that speak volumes about them?
    It still astounds me that people are actually that gullible they fall for it.
    The fact that the do not do that or can not do that also speaks volumes.

    Look at the thread on vertical facial dimensions. Some serious questions were asked about the research that was published. Rather than answer a single one of those questions, all we got a a parade of posturettes posting testimonials about Brian Rothbart. Despite repeated attempts not one of them would provide an answer to the questions asked!! Does that not speak volumes?
  34. fishpod

    fishpod Well-Known Member

    He sounds like a great snake oil salesman.
  35. Brian A. Rothbart

    Brian A. Rothbart Well-Known Member

    Going down memory lane and reading the comments. To this day, what is so disappointing, is that so much time was wasted venting diatribes and so little time spent in meaningful discussions. And that is the purpose of the Podiatry forum - meaningful discussions.
    Currently I have presented my preliminary research (published) on AIS. It is my hope that some of the participants in the above thread will join me on the AIS thread and present their views on the subject.
    Food for thought.

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