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S4 prescribing

Discussion in 'Australia' started by jos, Jun 21, 2007.

  1. jos

    jos Active Member

    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Just received the email regarding S4 prescribing rights from Vic APodA. This obviously means further study to be able to prescribe (I graduated in 1996) so can anyone tell me what I would need to do in order to be able to prescribe?
  2. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    The final legislative hurdle was passed in the upper house on Tues evening clearing the way. This was after considerable effort over a long time by APodA(Vic) and members of the Registration Board. There is still a way to go until the final list of drugs is decided upon and the exact nature of the training to upskill.

    When did you get the email? I never got one! .... and I am on the APodA(vic) Board!!
  3. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

  4. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    Prey tell!

    I heard that legislation would be held up due to appeal from TOPP (Those Opposed To Podiatric Prescribing) :rolleyes:

    Can you confirm Craig or Stephen. Due you have a link yet to the legislation?

    Any news will be of help to us here in sunny Qld.

  5. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Despite the last minute 'gloves off' behind the scenes lobbing by the Australian Medical Association (with some help from the Australian Physiotherapy Association) we matched their efforts and the legislation was passed.

    No link to the legislation, but here is a pdf of the debate:
    http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/do...ncil Dec 2006-Jun 2007 Daily 19 June 2007.pdf
    scroll down to pg 15 for the Health Professions Registration Amendment Act
  6. jos

    jos Active Member

    Craig, the email came through late this afternoon!
  7. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

    I too got the email. It has been a tremendous effort by a lot of people in the face of experienced campaigners as the opposition.
  8. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    Jos wrote
    To be able to prescribe in Victoria as a podiatrist it is proposed:
    *That you have an appropriate educational basis
    eg: 4yr degree (LaTrobe), previous 3yr degree plus Honours (LaTrobe) or Grad.Dip.(Pod.) (LaTrobe)
    Other courses will be accepted that have similar course content in the areas of pharmacology and microbiology.
    *Completed Advanced Life support training
    *Completed an update course yet to be developed, based on the drugs that will be approved by the minister.
    *Complete a period of supervised practice/co-prescription and/or case studies.
    *Be involved in medicines related CPD to maintain endorsement
    We do not expect the first pods to be independantly prescribing until the new year
  9. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    That won't happen until the ammendment obtains "Royal Assent" which is the sign off by the Govenor, which usually takes a week or two. But the ammendments to the act did not change any of the processess for podiatric prescribing from what was in the original HPRA 2005.
  10. jb

    jb Active Member

    Apologies if I've overlooked it in previous threads, but were there any compromises made on those S4 drugs initially proposed, or it that 'list' still to be determined?

    Echo the plaudits from other posters - well done A.Pod.A (Vic)
  11. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    There will always be compromises.
  12. One Foot In The Grave

    One Foot In The Grave Active Member

    Relevant media release by the AMA in this week's state newsletter.


  13. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

    Me thinks the AMA should get their own house in order concerning these issues before they start speculating about if certain problems will or will not develop in other professions. Prescribing habits of the medical profession are hardly an exemplary example to follow!
  14. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    Whilst the Victorian legislation is a monumental boost to ehnaced scope of practice in Australian podiatry, there remains a risk that perceptions from outside of podiatry will, perhaps rightfully, remain skeptical of our ability to prescribe safely. This will come from other health professions, government and health officials.

    Whilst the last group to be supportive of this change will be the medical profession, as it is just another strip removed from medical dominance over subordinate professions such as ours, there are other professions that can potentially assist in improving our credibility.

    The most significant will be pharmacy. We need to be jumping "into bed" with the Australian Pharmaceutical Society to show that we respect their knowledge and authority in this area. Let them be actively involved in upskilling and credentialling the profession, and this will allay concerns of those who might feel there is any risk to the public from incorrect prescribing. Working "in the system" is crucial.

    Podiatry also needs to be on the radar of the National Prescribing Service quick-smart - and even a module of Quality Use of Medicines designed for podiatrists. This comes from the Commonwealth, and will boost our bona fides at this level - and maybe help with other States as national registration looms. As well, the Australian Prescriber needs to be notified so that ALL podiatrists should be included on the mailing list. Simple things that enhance the perception of credibility.

    Remember, it would only take an incident of serious harm or a fatality, and this would be all the ammo the AMA would need to twist governments' arm into re-thinking their position.

    Data collection should be paramount also! Any young researchers in Victoria should get right onto this from Day 1. Nothing better than high quality evidence to shut up the detractors.

  15. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

    My point is that look at all the research and reports into things like how bad GP prescribing is. Why are they skeptical of our ability when they do it so badly? They need to get their own house in order before they start casting stones at us. From what I have heard, this one one of the many reasons the AMA lobby was ignored in the recent legislation changes. ie they are guilty of the very things that they were claiming would happen with the extension of prescribing to other professions.
  16. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    Playing devils advocate here - its probably because "they" acknowledge that they *do* still have problems with incorrect prescribing practices, despite all of the multitude of safeguards that have been developed for them. The challenge is how do we (novices) hope to at least be comparable to them in prescribing safety, from a government perspective?

    That is why it is absolutely critical to link into all of those existing prescribing safety and Quality Use of Medicines programs to show that we will be able to at least do as good a job - and certainly no worse!

  17. Richard Chasen

    Richard Chasen Active Member

    I agree with LL (the acknowledged Devil's advocate).. Plus I find it amusing that the same heavily trained prescribers now need a television campaign to stop parents asking for antibiotics for colds and flu..
    On a more serious point, it strikes me that we are by no means the only profession with legal rights to prescrive S4 drugs. Dentists do it, as well as some optometrists who have undergone training upgrades not unlike those that will likely happen for podiatrists by next year. We are simply the latest in a long line of interruptions to an antiquated model that sees doctors as some sort of holistic healthcare entity, with every other profession a lesser component. They are well trained and deserve their professional privileges, but I intend no cynicism when I suggest that the guise of "patient safety" can at times be used as a convenient excuse for not letting the other kids play. Besides... as someone who's ultra-cautious with lignocaine, I can't see myself being in any way blase about prescribing flucloxicillin...
  18. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    The AMA was generally ignored as the government had made the decision in 2005 to allow Vic Pods to prescribe, and the AMA had no solutions only problems. They rallied the same way against the Optometrists and the nurse practitioners. you think they would learn, that if they are on side they may have more influence on how and what podiatrists prescribe, but they have chosen to be on the outside, so the decsion will be left totally to the minister with advise from the Pod board and the DHs posions advisory group.
  19. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    There is now at HPRA2005 with all of the ammendments upto July 1st 2007
  20. Prescription of S4 drugs in Australia

    Hi everyone,

    Was wondering if anyone was aware of how the new prescription laws (S4) will be implemented into practice? Im assuming there will be a probationary period for new undergraduates and a short course (optional) developed for working pods.



  21. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Paul - I have merged your new question to this thread to keep it all in one place.
  22. TrentPerring

    TrentPerring Welcome New Poster

    Just wondering if anyone knows what this would mean for queensland trained pods (QUT) if they were to work in victoria? (upskilling, or straight right to prescribe).... I'm first year pod student and am not sure what level we will be trained in pharmacology...

    Just wondering for interest sake...
  23. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    All podiatrists will have to meet the criteria established by the registration Board in Victoria. The Pharmacology content of your course would need to be compared to the minimum requirements set out by the board, and remedial pharmacology may be required. The Board is yet to approve what this standard will be (but should do soon)
  24. Heather J Bassett

    Heather J Bassett Well-Known Member

    Hi, just checking if soon has arrived?
    Are there any updates?
    Thanks, kind regards h.
  25. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Soon is not quite here yet. Its still being moved backwards and forwards between the Registration Board; The Advisory committee; and the Ministers office. I understand the final version of the documentation regarding implementation etc will be ready this Friday to go to selected parties for comment before goint to the minister (or something like that). ....soon
  26. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    What Craig means is that the Reg Board hopes to have a document ready to send to DHS this week, for informal feedback before the formal submission to the minister (who will then send it to DHS for review/approval). Following the approval of the drug formulary and endorsement process, the board will liaise with appropriate education facilities to provide the required education, which will be based upon a podiatrists existing qualifications. There will then be a requirement for some supervised practice, which again will vary depending upon clinical experience.
    So the first fully endorsed podiatrists want be on the ground until well into the new year. But remember it took the optometrists 3-4 years for their first prescriber after legislation changed and nursing about 4 years, so if we are able to get this up within 12 months it will be a significant achievement.
  27. Heather J Bassett

    Heather J Bassett Well-Known Member

    Thanks again for the update, cheers h
  28. TrentPerring

    TrentPerring Welcome New Poster

    Not actually related to vic but i was just wondering if anyone knows if qld will follow with this soon?

    Does anyone expect this to take place in qld in the next 5 years? just wondering because it seems to be a major step forward that i'd imagine pod qld would be aimining for??
  29. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    It is likely to be considered as part of National Registration.
  30. Heather J Bassett

    Heather J Bassett Well-Known Member

    Hi any further info / updates? Thanks
  31. A Pod Student

    A Pod Student Banned

    Podiatrists will one day be able to subscribe S8 it is just a matter of the government understanding why this is necessary. It will happen and it will take some time but they will eventually listen.

    The feet are an anchor, and there are certain drugs that have the ability to remove wheel chairs by improving balance.

    Sometimes governments must be shamed into action.:hammer:

    Any surgeon that attacks a child in cold blood for a few dollars at the vestibular apparatus deserves no protection, legally, governmentally or through propaganda.

    Children are innocent.:sinking:
  32. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately governments don't work that way...at least not here in Australia. I don't understand the rest of your post.....
  33. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    The problem with this and national registration is that the state acts which govern S4 drug use are independent of the Podiatry Act. In essence, to break it down into the simplest blocks - even if Federal Legislation/Registration Board amalgamation allow Podiatrists access to S4, each state therapeutic goods and poisons act (or its equivalent) needs amending.

    Chances of this happening soon? Almost zero...

    We may have come a long way, but we still have a long way to come!
  34. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Health minister has signed the initial formulary for Victorian podiatrists. See attached.

    Attached Files:

  35. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    It still needs publication in the Government Gazette, which should happen next week, then the real "fun" begins as the process of endorsing podiatrists occurs. The endorsement process is run by the Pod Reg Board following the criteria presented to the minister before he signed off on the formulary, and it requires a mixture of knowledge and experience. As the process is introduced updates will appear on the board website

  36. Heather J Bassett

    Heather J Bassett Well-Known Member

    So Congrats are in order! We are there! Well done to those involved.
    So when and where are the studies available?

  37. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    The attached file is a flowchart to endorsement.

    The clinical training for the inexperienced is to be developed, but hopefully we can use some existing resourses.

    The prescribing update course of 14 hrs is under development and should be ready very soon and the 16 hr ALS courses are already available from a number of providers.

    For those with no pharmacology training you will have to access an approved tertiary course to complete the appropriate units of study.

    Attached Files:

  38. Heather J Bassett

    Heather J Bassett Well-Known Member

    Hi Stephen,

    so who is running that approved course.

    What is the definition of 40 sessions in a hosptial setting?

  39. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    A 'session' is usually described as a morning or afternoon block of 3-4 hours.

    So this is really 20 full days/4 working weeks, I suspect. The board will no doubt clarify this. Over 12 months this is quite easy to do I would suggest. Short term pain for long term gain.

    The hospital setting will no doubt have some flexibility I would suspect, as not all hospitals have the same clinical services...but a major regional or metropolitan public hospital would be a safe bet.

  40. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    The 14 hours will be likely run by LaTrobe within the next few months (dates will be confirmed this week and included in a Board newsletter to be sent out next week), restricted to those with the current qualification and experience. For those going down the mentor pathway, further negotiations with various health services will need to occur to allow for the "placements"

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