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The maximalist Brooks Transcend Running Shoe

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Craig Payne, Aug 2, 2013.

  1. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    That is the feedback I get: less muscle soreness after long/hard runs; I not hearing the ankle sprain issue.
     
  2. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Running shoes feel the best to me after I've logged over 1,000 miles in them. My shoes last an average of 2500 miles. I've had a few pairs, the Nike Shox Turbo version 1 and the Adidas EQT XTR last over 4000 miles each. I feel totally ripped off if my shoes don't last at least 1500 miles. My expectation is 2000 miles. If I get that, I feel I've gotten my money's worth. Anything less and I won't buy the shoes again.

    The notion of only getting 500 miles out of a pair of shoes is hard for me to relate to. I know that for some, they absolutely need that EVA cushion and at 500 miles, there is considerable loss of cushion. I have an ultra running friend that needs to replace his shoes every 300 miles. I only regret we don't wear the same size. A year of his throwaway shoes could keep me in shoes for 10 or 12 yrs. I can speculate that the reason I like my shoes after 1000 miles is that most of the sponginess in my shoes has been well flattened by then. I just happen to be a runner who doesn't need or want the cushion and on top of it, 100% of my running is done on soft trails.

    It is the uppers that actually wear out on my shoes. Once the holes get big enough to let in too much sand, gravel and dirt and it becomes a nuisance, it's time to throw them away.

    Makes me wonder how many miles I could get out of a pair of Hokas. I doubt I'll ever know because Hokas appear to be the absolutely wrong shoe for me. It doesn't make sense for me to even try these expensive shoes when I'm thrilled with wearing shoes on the opposite end of the spectrum. I guess I'll need to let the maximalist fad pass me by.

    Some people prefer a big head of "Fresh Foam" on their beer, I'd rather skip the foam and get to the beer itself.
     
  3. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    " how 2014 will shape up for the running shoe market since thicker soled, highly cushioned running shoes" Kevin Kirby.


    Aloha,

    Thank you Kevin for not calling them maximalist shoes.

    Andy from my last 5 years feild testing advanced composite shoe systems in the Xterra Championships here on Maui i have noticed that you do not feel sharp rocks at all and the coefficient of friction of the foot to the terrain is enhanced due to the increase friction force from the spring plates against rocks and slick mud. The intra shoe catilever system provides a 2:1 mechanical advantage to lift the heel at the right time of gait. They are also very supportive of my previous Jones Fracture when i run down hill with high impact forefoot contacts against boulders and cutbacks.

    Thickly foamed shoes are not built to do that.

    Here is the "True Maximalism", the type that may assist my courageous stroke surviving Dad...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ysb-Oko3Bg

    Now if the robotics folks would build their flatfooted mechanical systems with the new spring lever device US Pat. 8,353,968 perhaps we can maximalize maximalism...

    Mahalo,
    Steve

    Advanced Composite Spring Lever Runner
     
  4. In addition, I'm getting very few questions these days from my runner-patients on barefoot or "minimalist" shoes. The ones that do bring it up recognize the barefoot/minimalist shoe thing was a fad that has now come and is now going away quickly. This is a big change from 2 years ago when all my runner-patients wanted to know about this idea that thick-soled running shoes were bad and thin-soled shoes and barefoot were best. It is interesting to not that the largest running shoe store here in Sacramento is now trying desperately to get rid of all their Vibram FiveFinger shoes. 2-3 years ago, this same store couldn't keep them in stock since they were flying off the shelves.

    Shoe fads are interesting. We should all try to remember this shoe fad for the next time when people start claiming that one shoe is the best for all runners. Diversity in the running shoe market is the ticket to fewer injuries for intelligent runners. There is no one shoe that is the best for every runner. In fact, I highly recommend runners doing more than 25 miles per week to have more than one pair of running shoe to vary their training stresses from day to day since different shoe constructions stress different anatomical structures. This recommendation has worked well for me and many other runners over the years and makes good biomechanical/physiological sense to me.
     
  5. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,

    It is sad that we are willing to be at the wims of the shoe companies fads. If the current shoe systems were ideal then they would not be concidered "fads" but solid science and they would back up their marketing claims with such.

    I agree with Kevin on the practice of shoe system variability. I have had the ability of interchanging spring plates with variable spring strengths and cradles with different heel heights and arch contours that allowed me to better rest and work my tissues especially when training for marathons and off road races and playing tennis and ultimate frisbee and golf.

    Mahalo,
    Steve

    Renegade Podiatrist
     
  6. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Since minimal shoes are dead, it must be less muscle soreness compared to wearing traditional shoes.

    Seems like these shoes are just another one-off from traditional shoes. Since shoe sales are heavily driven by fashion and maximal shoes are plain butt ugly, once those interested in these shoes try them and realize they didn't change the pull of gravity, the fad will be dead in short order. Fashion certainly won't be carrying the sales of these shoes. Then they will settle into a niche for those people who also wear other ugly foam shoes like Crocs or toning shoes. I give maximal shoes until the end of 2014 before falling off of the sales cliff.
     
  7. Hello All,

    This is my first post, I have been following the thread and Podiatry arena for some time and figured my two cents may add some valuable insights. I briefly mentioned a couple things with Ian Griffiths via twitter (@ukrunrambles) with regards to transcend as I have been in a fortunate position to see both the study and shoe develop. Side note, I am a store manager and Brooks is just one of many brands I carry- certainly not employed by them.

    I saw the studies being carried out in Cologne feb this year but today I have actually used the shoe and my observations are a little different to some of the comments above. Firstly I really dont see a Hoka type shoe. The hoka has a huge stack height of approx 32-34mm and the EVA is soft, must have a durometer of low 40's? The Transcend is 24mm in the heel (quite traditional) they have just increased the forefoot to 16mm and the Bio Dna stuff they use feels easily upwards of 50 in hardness, hugely different feel to Hoka- soft but not 'pillow like'. Certainly their biggest story is the Guiderails and its the biggest 'tech' to come from the study i think. Stride signature is effectively preferred motion pathway however they believe or theorise that each individual has an optimal ROM within the joints, rather than stopping this optimal motion they allow it to happen until it becomes excessive (hard to define!) and the guiderail should nudge it back. I definitely felt these rails but not suggesting that's good or bad. I do like the story they are creating around not just fitting the foot and considering the whole body (this is where free moments may be beneficial as opposed to visually watching valgus knees, hip drops, arm swings etc. And I do think 'specialist' running stores need to stop telling customers how the foot should be moving without considering other factors. How this is implemented to shoe fitting is really difficult though- I expect Brooks to present some kind of functional movement screen which will still be used to pigeon hole runners, only difference is that their will be more categories and not just the 3(4) we are use to know, Neutral, stability, motion control (minimalism).

    A prospective study for run shoe fitting is a move in the right direction and it has current popular trends of individuality, Preferred motion pathways, optimal leg stiffness and torque/free moments at its core but this is going to very difficult to relate to shoe manufacturing?

    As a side note, the white paper is very consumer friendly and a bit weak for guys like yourselves I recommend just following the Hamill and Brueggermann papers that have come out in Footwear Biomechanics and will continue to develop as their studies continue (at least 3 more years I'm told). Also, we cant bag on run companies paying for top quality reserachers- if they didn't our first question would be to highlight that none of their studies are credible. We can't have it both ways
    Bit of a ramble, sorry
     
  8. I respectively disagree. Current 2013 sales data in the states is showing a huge increase in stability categories- 30% in first quarter I believe. www.sportsonesource.com is great for analytically sales data but is a charged subscription.

    With current oversized shoe companies increasing models and exposure (like Altra) 2014 is more likely to see a boom in these sales. 2015 is a bigger question and it will hinge on whether the same inquisitive customer becomes a return customer, seems this is something barefoot has fallen short on. Forgive the pun but lots of foam has more legs than less foam from a consumer point of view (im not suggesting a biomechanical point of view at all). The modern consumer is getting more educated but the vast majority in store still want to have a "i dont want to feel my feet when i run" experience. I just pray a book that finds an ultramarathoning tribe running in 40mm thick soles doesn't happen :)
     
  9. Just one small point, to the best of my knowledge the "DNA" technology brooks uses in their shoes is a non-Newtonian polymer. Thus, it does not have a "fixed" stiffness or durometer.
     
  10. Its blended with EVA. Plus their is a carbon plate that sits on top of and around the midsole border adding to that stiffer feel
     
  11. Whether its blended with Eva or not, if its a non-Newtonian as brooks marketing stated when it was introduced, it doesn't have a fixed stiffness. That one of the defining characteristic of a non-Newtonian material.
     
  12. It may bot be fixed but its going to have absolute ranges? I would just say put a hoka onand put a transcend on and you will feel a significant difference. Appreciate this is not something you can do right away!
     
  13. Richard, you stated that the DNA stuff in brooks shoes had a given durometer. If its a non-Newtonian polymer, this is an erroneous assessment of the material characteristics of the DNA polymer. End of. I know one thing, I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong.
     
  14. No need for that.
    I definately said 'feels' like its stiffer. The dna is suppose to stiffen up with greater impacts or so it is suggested which means if I press the midsole with my thumb or even with a shore I should be feeling it at its softest? If that's right then I think its valid that I personally feel its harder than the hoka. Its not about being wrong or right, its about trying to give some feedback on how the shoe feels in the real world
     
  15. The point of a non-Newtonian polymer is that it's material charactistics are dependent up the rate of applied shear. Saying that it has a durometer of "insert number" is meaningless unless you define the shear rate. So let me get this right- you're a shoe salesman?
     
  16. Hi simon- its one characteristic of my job/jobs yes. I hope your not suggesting a hierachy of opinions here? I'm simply stating feels and experiences of a discussed shoe from a consumer and shoe sales industry perspective. I believe that to be valuable in a discussion about shoes. Perhaps we should have a more private discussion so what don't bore others with our non-related personally questions- I'd be happy to do that. All the best
     
  17. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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  18. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha Simon,

    Do you wave your white flag whenever you are wrong?

    A hui hou,
    Steve
     
  19. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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    Here is some info on the Altra max cushioned shoe

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  20. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Hi guys,
    Just don't forget to tell to your patients to be very gradual… start to have many anecdotal cases of knee injuries with this type of maximalist shoe… ;)
    Blaise
     
  21. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Brooks are going all out on this.

    The March issue of Runners World magazine(US edition) has a video advert in promoting the shoe!

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  22. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    They become the #1 company in North America since some years in Canada and US by promoting the pure line… not surprise they jump also on the Maximalist wagon.

    They are also the fist one to promote both type of shoe on the same chart (feel or float?)
     
  23. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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    Brooks really seems to be on a roll (at least they think so):

    Press Release:
    Brooks Running Company Kicks Off 2014 with Strong Business Momentum and Laser Focus on Defining the Next 100 Years of the Run
    Company Races through 2013 Posting Double-Digit Growth and Earning Industry Accolades
    SEATTLE - Jan. 22, 2014
     
  24. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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    New video from Brooks:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  25. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    The shoe hit the market yesterday in US. I see a huge amount of positive feedback and praise on social media!
     
  26. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Just picked up this comment from Ben Pickel from leisure Trends:
     
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    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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  28. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Exactly; but the difference is that the minimalist fan boys are trying to argue that minimalist shoes should be everyone. No one is promoting the maximalist shoes for everyone.
     
  29. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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  30. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Sorry,
    EVERYBODY was promoting just maximalist shoes (TRC rating < 60%) 3-4 y ago... 97% of the market was maximalist shoes... that was what retailers, health professionals, and coaches were recommended for any runners... exception of athletes for performing...
     
  31. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    I never promoted nor defended any type of shoe.

    So many of the minimalist manufacturers must be turning to maximalism for a reason.

    The way I see it is that we have so many websites, forums, magazines, articles, retailers, manufacturers and people etc that are touting, pushing, talking up, championing and promoting minimalism over many yrs (ie an extraordinary amount of publicity and promotion) ... yet it is declining (at specialty retail in the USA it now down to 3% marketshare). No one I can see is touting, pushing, talking up and promoting maximalism, except the manufacturers and yet look at what is happening. No one is "championing" these shoes - the sales figures speak for themselves.

    Up to 60% of ultramarathon runners in a race are wearing Hoka One One's - whenever has a brand been that dominate?
    On 1 Feb in the USA when the Brooks Transcend was released, it apparently got a 7% marketshare that day (no one model has ever gone above 3.5% on any one day).

    I not promoting or talking up these shoes, just observing what is happening.
     
  32. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,

    Supersizing Foam Doth Not Make Maximalism...

    MBT came out with a super sized foam shoe that help start this current wave of minimalism. Now we make super sized foam shoes and try to claim/market them as maximalist. What do they maximalize? Seriously What?

    Criag i know you chose your words very carefully but your last satetment is not totally correct and their are many threads on your website here to attest to this.

    "No one I can see is touting, pushing, talking up and promoting maximalism, except the manufacturers"

    We recognize that we "manufacture" pucture, blast and fire resistant footwear that is designed to maximalize energy return utilizing lever and spring mechanics and that is build with reinforced advanced compoiste materials that enhance and maximalize stability of gait and standiing.

    But what you do not recogize is the we are promoting Maximalism because our important and significant results from our testing for US Department of Defense and Army Medical Research and Materials Command research results for SBIR A11-109 "Advanced Composite Insoles for the Reduction of Stress Fractures" .

    What is your future maximalism?

    Just more foam?


    Mahalo,
    Steve

    Co-Pricipal Investigator SBIR A11-109
    Amercian Society of Testing Materials committees
    -F13 Footwear Safety
    -E54 Homeland Security Applications and Body Armor
     
  33. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    I don't see that at all. I and a lot of people are commenting about "maximalism"; I just do not see many, if any, promoting or advocating "maximalism" ... compare that to the numbers promoting and advocating "minimalism".
     
  34. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha Craig,

    I as a practicing podiatric physician and pedorthist am promoting and advocating maximalism.

    Our company is advocating maximalism as well because it will make our soldiers safer in their fields of combat. But your statement is an absolute "No one I can see is touting, pushing, talking up and promoting maximalism, except the manufacturers".

    Even though we are a veteran owned Amercian small business we are not "no ones."
    And if you think this battle we are having with Kirby and Spooner is just for fun think again. It is for the maximalist safety of our loved ones.

    Mahalo and with Deep Respect,
    Steve

    Carbon Fiber and Kevlar Reinforced Orthotic Utilizer



    How many people will it take till you reframe the statement
     
  35. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    The Feb sales figures are out; Brooks increased their marketshare by 20% on the strength of the Transcend.
     
  36. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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  37. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Just picking up on a number of comments from running shoe retailers in a facebook group that they Transcend is not selling well after all the initial hype.
     
  38. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    Next models look awesome. I have a few patients running in them - sans orthoses and they like them. Time will tell.
     
  39. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Version 2 of the Transcend is starting to hit stores in USA -- lots of positive comments in social media that its a good update (but no real info on exactly what they have changed).
     
  40. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Here is what Brooks say about version 2:
    Tech Talk: The Transcend 2
     
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