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The UK needs a united professional body

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Simon Spooner, Jul 20, 2012.

?

The podiatry profession within the UK would be best represented by:

  1. A single, united professional body

    29 vote(s)
    74.4%
  2. A number of disparate professional body's

    10 vote(s)
    25.6%
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  1. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    My last post was in reply to Mark Russell.

    Reading Simon`s last post simply strengthens my opinion !
     
  2. I take it that you do not believe that any of the existing professional body's are capable then? Which body are you currently aligned with?
     
  3. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    I take it that you do not believe that any of the professional bodies are capable then ? Which body are you currently aligned with ?

    Capable - yes. Likely or probable - mmmm

    Independent
     
  4. So, you think podiatric surgery is more likely to survive within the UK through a series of "independent" practitioners than through the current professional body's?
     
  5. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    So, you think podiatric surgery is more likely to survive within the UK through a series of "independent" practitioners than through the current professional body's ?

    No.
     
  6. I am a little surprised at your answer. It has been the mutual suspicion and mistrust between the various factions that fosters disunity. Separation seems like segregation to me - and given your own experience with the Society I would have thought you would see the futility of such a scenario. Podiatric surgery is a natural specialty of podiatry - like biomechanics. Why the need for separate identity?
     
  7. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    Why the need for separate identity ?

    Mark, Already answered 7 posts back !
     
  8. Yet, you choose to remain as an "independent". Ok.
     
  9. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    The Podiatry Association (PA) was by far the toughest UK podiatry organisation I've seen in my professional life. Their primary purpose was surgical training, and they achieved this and the recognition of Pod Surgery within the NHS in a remarkably short space of time.

    Ordinary Pods could join the PA as Associate Members - I was one.
    There was much less BS floating around in those days.
    I remember the opposition from the Society too. First to LA, then strengths of LA, then bone surgery.
    Heady days!

    I can't see how fragmenting the profession can help to strengthen it. For my money - single professional body. I would bring in FHPs/Podologists at a lower tier too - the more the merrier, and of course the bigger the fighting fund.

    It is unlikely to happen anytime soon.
     
  10. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    Simon.

    'So, you think podiatric surgery is more likely to survive within the UK through a series of "independent" practitioners than through the current professional body's' ?

    No.

    Yet, you choose to remain as an "independent". Ok.


    Nor do I think it is more likely to survive with the current professional body (only time will tell)

    David

    'The Podiatry Association (PA) was by far the toughest UK podiatry organisation I've seen in my professional life'.

    It was and I was privileged to be a member and know that all the advances made took enormous effort and unity; in spite of opposition from the Society. AGMs with 90% attendance and everyone with a voice.

    Excuse my cynical belief that we're unlikely to see that sort of enthusiasm whilst being effectively neutered !
     
  11. You see the original question was this:

    To which you answered:
    Which suggests that you think that podiatric surgery is more likely to survive in the UK through the current professional body's.

    So I wrote:
    But then you respond:

    So, you think it is more more likely to survive with the current professional body's than with independent practitioners, but you don't think it's more likely to survive with the current professional body's than with independent practitioners? :confused:

    If I may be so bold, you think it is more likely to survive with a separate, independent body just for podiatric surgeons, don't you? I don't know your name? Why do you think the podiatry association joined with the Society? To what extent might an independent group of podiatric surgeons numbering a couple of hundred be able to lobby parliament and defend themselves against the desire by orthopaedic surgeons to rid themselves of podiatric surgeons presence?
     
  12. My mistake - I had assumed you were referring to the podiatry profession and its place within the NHS rather than Pod Surgery's place within podiatry. Ok. David mentioned the Podiatry Association. I too was an associate member and was quite enthusiastic about the potential development of the podiatric profession post graduation in the 1980s and 90s. I recall discussing what might be with one of my colleagues in Fife at the time - Howard Chapman - after I came back from lecturing in the USA in 1989 - and seeing how podiatry was structured Stateside. There were a couple of glaring weaknesses - the educational platform relied wholly on the NHS for its funding - major mistake - and the conflict between public and private care - and the impact such a scenario had on the body professional - i.e. us. There were intrinsic problems too - the divisions within the profession - at all levels and the reluctance to change. Thirty years on and we are still having to explain the chiropodist/podiatrist relationship on a regular basis and frustratingly, the divisions and weaknesses still remain!

    What I envisaged was a different professional base in the UK - one centre of excellence - a British Podiatry Centre - encompassing an educational facility responsible for hosting and delivering undergraduate and postgraduate education for the entire profession, perhaps even alongside a British Foot and Ankle Hospital. This would be run by and on behalf of the Podiatry Profession through its membership organisation - perhaps a BPMA. A educational campus with a dedicated health facility and membership facilities. Initially - and naively - I thought this would be funded through the tax system but perhaps the passing of years has brought a realisation - or maybe cynicism - that this could not be possible or even desirable. It could still be achieved, of course, but to do so would require a great investment from all of us - not just monetary, but in committment at every level. But, John, you are quite correct in one respect - it does need driven en bloc from very tough individuals - across the entire professional spectrum.
     
  13. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    Simon.

    So, you think it is more more likely to survive with the current professional body's than with independent practitioners, but you don't think it's more likely to survive with the current professional body's


    No, I don`t give it much of a chance either way.

    If I may be so bold, you think it is more likely to survive with a separate, independent body just for podiatric surgeons, don't you?

    Yes. previous post clearly explains reason for that view.

    Why do you think the podiatry association joined with the Society ?

    In the vain hope that it would take over the Society and use funds to further development !
     
  14. OK. A little defeatist though. Jason, I think it probably succeeded in that to a certain extent. After all, funds are still deployed for a separate faculty of surgery. However, I suspect the Society remembered where these surgeons had come from, even if some of them had seemingly forgotten for themselves. It also probably recognised that others within its membership had undertaken post-graduate study to become specialists in their own field too and that surgery was merely one specialist area of podiatric practice within many.

    Why do you choose to be an independent, Jason Mason?
     
  15. I suspected that was the case for many years. May I ask, why? Did you feel that surgery would have the momentum to drive the profession forward on its own? Surely not?
     
  16. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    The BMA has about 141,000 members. The number of podiatrists registered with the HPC is about 13,000 and they are represented by four professional bodies.

    There is no doubt that choice is a good thing and in this case the more choice podiatrists have the better it is for the medical profession.

    Simply (too simply), using numbers as an indicator of power, podiatry has little ability to oppose the will of medicine. Give podiatry four discordant voices and what little power the profession of podiatry had evaporates, making divide and conquer an effortless exercise.

    Off course we have, over the last few decades seen how small relatively powerless groups can more effectively take on larger groups. It's called terrorism. But even here podiatry's professional terrist activities are turned inwards.

    For some reason the in fighting within podiatry makes me think of a line from a Benny Hill song,' The Fastest Milkman in the West'.

    'He went over to Ernie's cart and didn't half kick his 'orse'.

    Maybe rather than thinking of the profession as a number of political parties each requiring a seperate representative voice it might be more useful to envisage the profession as a very small country at war with a significantly larger and better resourced country. To have any chance against the larger country, whatever the strategy employed, the small country has to unite to have any chance of victory.

    Unfortunately podiatry's attempts at professionalism look more like trying to shooting yourself in the foot (no pun intended).

    Bill
     
  17. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    Mark

    'Did you feel that surgery would have the momentum to drive the profession forward on its own? Surely not, ?

    Surely yes. Not just conjecture, remember the PA had done just that and were still doing it.

    As to the numbers argument, that`s a red herring. Other small groups have gained independence with equally small numbers. What was really achieved by amalgamation was going from a specific profession with no apparent connection with divers postal course groups and grandfathered to a group that hadn`t got away from all these connections; taking on those connections.

    Under the C.P.S.M the PA surgical qualifications gained full recognition by Privy Council, something never achieved by the Society`s surgical qualification. Then all were lumped together under the HPC, hardly progress !
     
  18. Yes, I appreciate all of that and regrettably it is so. The question that Simon has posed, is very relevent. There is a journey and timeline still to complete. The only question is which vessel is best suited to make that journey in. With or without? Despite the problems I think it's best with - as long as the narrative encapsulates all. That has always been the issue!
     
  19. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Do we all agree that the SCP in it's current form is an unsuitable vessel?
     
  20. I think a new body would be preferable. An entrenched mindset would be, at best, a distraction - and having experienced that mindset first-hand it would be unwise to underestimate its impact - whether the members wished a different direction - or not. Another issue is liabilities - I do not know the present funding position with the SCP - what arrangements are in place for contracts and pensions and the like. It's a membership organisation - wind it up and distribute the assets - if there are any left - to the members. Sometimes it's best to start with a clean sheet and build from there.... Both you and John mention the PA - where the critical factor was momentum. Something that is difficult to achieve when you have a dead weight tied around your neck!

    Who is the current Chair of the Society - Alison Wishart? Might someone give her the heads up and invite her to detail the Society's strategic plan for the next 10 years?
     
  21. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    Mark

    ...where the critical factor was momentum

    Which was obtained only by having the determination and resilience to take on allcomers, including the Society.

    Can the new wave learn from the lessons of the past and do they have what it takes ?
     
  22. That is the $50,000 question. It might be a steep learning curve - but probably not as difficult as you would expect. Set out your stall - offer a vision and plan to take you there and present it to the profession. If its good enough then the Society - and other bodies would be an irrelevance - even more than they are presently.
     
  23. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    especially the Society, surely?
     
  24. R.E.G

    R.E.G Active Member

    I’ve tried to stay out of this thread because like Del says it’s all been said before.

    Of course that does not mean it should not be revisited.

    The biggest problem I see in initiating change is overcoming the inertia within the profession. IMO the profession just does not attract politically minded people.

    I can only speak from my experience while in the Society but it appeared that a maximum of 15% participation in anything’ was the norm. So 1350 Society members and if that extended to HPC registrants 1800.

    Most people posting on this thread have tried to effect change and failed.

    The only way I can see to access the Pods necessary for change would be for a motion at the bodies AGMs the same motion at the same time.

    That would be interesting?

    I doubt the outcome would match the poll on this thread I predict the ruling juntas would resist and the membership would be whipped into a frenzy of mutual hate.

    So I think we are basically stuffed?
     
  25. rosherville

    rosherville Active Member

    REG

    'so basically we are stuffed'

    Which, as far as Podiatric Surgery goes, explains my post of 8.03 on the 24th !
     
  26. To achieve what precisely?
     
  27. Catfoot

    Catfoot Well-Known Member

    All,
    This topic has been discussed before ad nauseum.

    The last time it was discussed I asked what we all actually regarded as "The Profession"?

    No-one could give a definitive answer. So if we can't even decide what we mean by "The Profession" then there isn't much hope of any common goal.

    I agree with REG, we are stuffed

    :pigs:

    regards

    Catfoot
     
  28. R.E.G

    R.E.G Active Member

    Mark,

    This not my thread but lets try,

    'The membership wish to see the profession represented by one unified body and ask the Council to negotiate this position.'

    I bet you can do better than that.
     
  29. I agree with Mark, it needs a carte blanche and fresh start. None of the existing body's will give up their share of the "power" willingly. It also needs a ballot of the registrants; 30 votes on Podiatry Arena are interesting and not too bad for a poll here, but it's not a representative sample.
     
  30. R.E.G

    R.E.G Active Member

    Simon,

    Obviously you agreeing with Mark is the majority view of your straw poll.

    So given your hypothesis from this sample is that the 'profession' desires a single representative body how will you go about contacting the profession and getting them to vote?

    See my first post, re read catfoot, talk to rosherville, he tried it.

    It would be interesting to hear Bill's opinion on my vote idea?

    Bob
     
  31. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    It's not necessary to get anyone to vote.

    For change to take place it takes a willingness for change, a clear set of ideals, and a workable plan of how to achieve those ideals.

    Voting, committees, mandates and professional democracy will get us nowhere, although they are necessary as a framework once a plan is put into action, and for continuity.
     
  32. Bob

    If you take a ball hammer and bring it down sharply on your thumb you can safely say that it will hurt. A lot. If you do it once, chances are, you won't do it again. You would probably say that it would be a waste of time posting this information onto the packaging because most people would be able to deduce that such an activity produces the aforementioned outcome. I have been in practice almost thirty years - nothing has changed in the professional landscape during that time in a positive manner that could be attributed to any of the professional bodies. The regulatory environment is no different than it was pre-HPC - ok you have the titles of chiropodist and podiatrist protected. So what? So was the title 'State Registered'. We now have a regulator that actively seeks public complaints against its registrants - as though the level of FtP hearings are an indicator of its effectiveness. Yet it is relatiely easy to circumvent the regulatory process, should someone find themselves struck-off for any misdemeanor.

    We have a representative organisation that is grossly incompetent and negligent- and a regulatory process that is fundamentally flawed - not a good prospect for the profession or its patients. You know it. I know it. Everyone who practises podiatry knows it. You don't need a poll to tell you that a single unified body would be preferable - just as you don't need the warnings printed on the ball-hammer packaging. If you do, then perhaps you've missed something over the years.
     
  33. I thought I might write to each of the registrants personally, and ask them their opinions. Then, assuming a majority view in favour of a single professional body, I'd then ask each of the existing professional body's to wind up their affairs so that a single united professional body can emerge. Maybe then I'd seek "Royal" approval and status. Do you think this approach will work?:rolleyes: Who made me the "kingmaker"? I was just asking the question.
     
  34. I'm in the process of sending a few hundred patients down to Cornwall for a consultation - clearly you have way too much time on your hands these days!:empathy:
     
  35. I don't live with the pointy head / chewing-gum feet brigade, I'm in Devon.

    Here's the sky outside my office right now... you can't beat a bit of blue sky thinking on a Wednesday afternoon.
     

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  36. Nice photo - Wouldn't it be great if some folks could think the same way .....?? To quote John Lennon "you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...."
     
  37. Tune.

    I guess we need to find out how many share the same dream?
     
  38. I wonder how much it would cost to buy a database of all the podiatry registrants e-mail addresses from the HPC (HCPC or whatever they want to call themselves these days) for research purposes? I got ten quid and a big orange spare, plus a full Panini soccer '76-77 sticker album (I might be lying about the "full" nature of this).
     
  39. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Errrm:rolleyes:

    I take it this new body would consist of the same podiatry members that are spread across the 4 present ones ??

    When they join will they be automatically mind cleansed of the prejudices that have held this profession back for so many years or will we all start anew but still squabbling and in fighting among ourselves as now , and getting nowhere ??

    The MEMBERS THEMSELVES are the main problem:bang:

    How you ever hope to change that I havent a clue.......
    Cheers
    D ;)
     
  40. Easy, get 'em to watch episodes of the Sweeney, and tell 'em they'll be stitched right up if they don't behave 'emselves. Life was so much simpler in the '70's

    P.S. using the phrase "you slags" after any sentence you say may help. You slags.
     
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