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Getting a bit cheesed off !!!!!!

Discussion in 'Foot Surgery' started by drcam, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. drcam

    drcam Member


    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Just to find out whether I am the only pod surgeon in the world with Orthopaedic angst.

    Had v. good relationship with local ortho's until they wanted to employ a foot specialist, (we were politley rebuffed as not being quite what they were after with joint clinics not being of benefit. They could of course see some mileage in us working under the new consultant!). We pointed out that performing between 900-1000 cases per year to their 100-150 might lead to the assumption that the GP population was quite happy with what we do. Boy, have things changed as a result!!!!
    We therefore mentioned about our 4-5 ortho re-do's every week, our training not being quite comparable and already quite competent servie for the local population. Its amazing how our relationship worked on their terms but without much appreciation of ours.

    A quick perusal of some of thier 'closed' chatroom networks indicates quite a few threads on Podiatrists ranging from 'good guys to should stick with toenails'.

    It seems to me that we are all being rather nice to orthopaedic colleagues but behind closed doors, they are none to complimentary about us.

    I believe many are unaware of the time taken to get our level of training, the work performed and the many happy patients we care for. I am constantly amazed that our local ortho's echo the sentiments of BOFAS and AOFAS that they have as much training in foot surgery as we do and that even without a fellowship in foot surgery ( although this is seen as desirable), they are still infanantly qualified to perform foot surgery. Funny, I have never seen a General surgeon perform a bunion surgery- they gave it up some 30 years ago on the basis of being outside of their remit!

    A very good peice of work presented in the UK early this year demonstrated the attitude of Pods and Ortho's respectivley. It demonstrated a reasonable appreciation by Podiatric surgeons of the work performed by orthopaedic surgeons but sadly the reverse was true of Orthopaedic views on Podiatry. Many of the more moderate ortho's, I understand felt that Pods should restrict their practice to the forfoot only! Funny that, I could have sworn I learnt the anatomy and treatment of the whole foot at Uni!

    MY question is this - taking the moral highground aside, why are we still being nice to these people? what is being done across the globe to put the podiatric surgical view forward as the specialist group most appropriately qualified to deal with foot problems and how do we organise this given that the BOFAS, EAFAS and AOFAS groups are working togeather to knock Podiatry back 100 years!

    BTW for any ortho's out there ( I know more than one that logs on as this is an open forum,to see the podiatry angle) perhaps you could give an insight?

    Any thoughts

    C
     
  2. drcam

    drcam Member

    was hoping for some comments or advise.

    Is this subject that tedious? Come on - lets have some discussion regarding this!
     
  3. Dieter Fellner

    Dieter Fellner Well-Known Member

    Orthopaedic angst is I guess, among Podiatrists (US) and Podiatric Surgeons (US/UK) to some extent a ubiquitous phenomenon. Is this also a sign of our own deeper angst and possible misgiving that our own qualifications are ‘different’?

    The experience of our relations with various medical orthopaedic colleagues is likely to be mixed. I have known Orthopaedic Surgeons / Professors who have been the staunchest of advocates, of Podiatry and Podiatric Surgery, and have proven this by supporting our efforts in various ways. I have known others who have launched quite vicious unprovoked attacks – one can only speculate what the real motives are but those honest enough might just open up to admit it has to do with private practice income as opposed to altruistic concerns. I do not go out of my way to be either nice nor hostile but I will treat like with like. Would I turn the other cheek? – not likely.

    The response toward the profession from doctors in other medical disciplines, on the other hand, is often much more benign and usually friendly and, it seems, at times there are those who enjoy the fact we offer up a challenge to those orthopaedic colleagues.

    Overall I am just not sure this kind of thread can offer much, apart from venting and sticking out a proverbial tongue at those fractious orthopedists. Is it possible to contribute directly to those website where those insecure individuals are decrying our efforts? Perhaps this is where we should enter in dialogue.

    Is there a shortage of patients and feet? I think not. Our success in the field of foot surgery can fuel hostility and generate, among those insecure individuals, ‘Podiatric Surgeon’ angst. Not only are we a safe profession but we have audits to prove it is a highly effective discipline.

    BUT, and I have to admit to this, I am going to be REAL nice, at least to the Trauma Surgeons, those local highly skilled, experts, the Orthopaedic Surgeons who, and it is just possible, might one day have to piece me back together if ever I fall off my motorbike! (again)
     
  4. drcam

    drcam Member

    Deiter, I agree that the resentment is probably PP work but this is not the route of it. It really is a misgiving of old. The more current source of angst is in the NHS rather than the PP area. It is really the younger more motivated Ortho's interested in Feet that are causing the trouble. We have to remeber that in the past, the older Ortho's grumbled at the idea of a 'chiropodist' doing more than cutting corns and often tried to stop the 'start of Pod Surg' but the newer ortho's who have grown up with successful foot surgery are really the ones trying to put the boot in!

    I take issue with your comment about the misgivings of our 'own different qualifications' I like to think mine along with all of the other Podiatric Surgeons in the world are really second to none. I certainley dont feel 'concerned' that mine are different. How can a log book of well over 1000 foot procedures for a pod surg trainee, really be compared to the 50 or so of the average SPR Ortho? I am very happy with my qualifications!

    I do believe a forum like this is important for these discussions. You could of course take the ostrich approach!
     
  5. Dieter Fellner

    Dieter Fellner Well-Known Member

    The comment about training has nothing to do with how many procedures there are in a log book, and it is missing the point. But I also believe there are some aspects of this discussion which belong in a professional closed forums and not an open public arena.

    You seem to have particular problem with orthopods in your region but since I do not have any other details it is not my place to comment further.
     
  6. drcam

    drcam Member

    Perhaps your point wasnt that clear.

    Your right though, these discussions may well be placed in a forum other than public. Where is it BTW?

    My intention was to do engender some interest in quite an interesting problem. I was fortunate to gain insight to a 'closed' forum for Doctors. From what I saw as correspondence between medics it appears that all is not that rosey. There is clearly a link that Orthopods who wish to communicate with GP's in a private forum can do so without outside knowledge or otherwise.

    Basically they are spreading some relativley 'unchecked' bad press. I just think we ought to be aware of it.

    I am pleased that you have a good relationship with ortho's. Mine was until I started to do competent rearfoot surgery and politely rebuffed their asertions that this was not the place of a Podiatrist.

    As I have said before Pod vs Ortho relationships tend to work one way. We have audits to prove it and I am sure that it happens to us all who are pushing Pod Surg forward a bit.

    Just trying to find some parallel minds out there!
     
  7. Dieter Fellner

    Dieter Fellner Well-Known Member

    Clear enough to me, I think, if you can read between the lines. Is one reason I do not often engage in this type of dialogue - this kind of bickering is frankly annoying. I have a neutral relationship with orthopaedics, and if you read carefully what I wrote, I did not claim differently. In fact if asked, I am sure, the local orthopods probably would prefer (in private, and some in public) if I dug a deep hole, jumped in and buried myself.

    You can ask the administrator to set up a password protected section for discussion. That would be quite useful, I guess.

    Since I have been in Podiatric Surgery there has always been bad press and bad feeling flowing in both directions, and I don't imagine this will change anytime soon. So some orthopods don't care for Podiatric Surgeons, and vice versa - tough cheddar. I long ago learnt to live with that, and frankly I don't give a hoot if they like me or not?


    Also it appears you have won over their respect with forefoot surgery so pluck away until they can accept the rearfoot surgery. You do not need their approval or consent to do so, so who cares?

    You are right to fight your corner, but choose your battles carefully.

    I am away to Italy, enojy!

    PS Stand by your convictions and post under your real name instead of internet nickname?
     
  8. drcam

    drcam Member

    Dieter

    I fear it might be you who has missed the point. Dont get me wrong, I don't really care whether Orthopods like us or not. Just as long as they dont become more effective at stopping Pod Surgery from developing. My original post was not intended as complaining or whinging about my own situation but rather to bring up the point up as to how to stop a reasonably sustained global attack on Podiatry which goes on behind the scenes when we are all believing otherwise.

    I am not sure your rather sanctamonius comment is helpful. I am pleased for you that you are so stoic as to not bother about it, but I have another 30 odd years left in this profesion and I dont intend to see it go down hill by neglecting our oponents. I am rather more concenered with a forum where we can speak in private, but i think you might have demonstrated this point for me quite adequately!

    BTW - I do stand up for my rights, thank you and, no, I dont ask permission for treating my Rearfoot patients. Do you when you do rear foot cases? I think that if you venture into rearfoot work in a meaningful way, you too might find a change in the reception your orthpod colleagues give you.

    Oh and before I sign off, thanks for the little jibe about internet pseudonyms. If you knew your profession better, you might realise that my name is indeed Cam and the title is Dr, hence 'DrCam'. Its not really that difficult to work out !

    Enjoy Italy.
     
  9. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    They have failed miserably so far. Look at all their effort to block the progress of Podiatry worldwide and look at how far Podiatry has progressed worldwide.
     
  10. mahtay2000

    mahtay2000 Banya Bagus Makan Man

    I am aware, though I must admit through heresay of my pts referred to him, that a Surgical Podiatrist has been harassed into moving, and now maybe stopping practice, in Queensland. (By the local Orthopods using OH&S etc as a backdoor pushrod.)
    As I said, this is heresay and anyone with better information should expand or qualify what I say, but if it is true it is disturbing...
    I still see a lot of recently done surgical work, not by Surgical Podiatrists, that needs 'fixing.'
    And may I also say that a relative of mine in a little town called Sacramento had a few parts of his feet operated upon, and subsequently 'stuffed' (his terms) until my Dear Mama suggested a Podiatric Surgeon. I think he saw someone named ?Kelby ?Kisby ?Kirby ;)
    Anyway nuff said-he's a happy chappy now.
     
  11. drsarbes

    drsarbes Well-Known Member

    Hmmmmmmm. Sounds like you may be a little young!
    There was a time, not THAT long ago, when most Podiatrists in the USA did make their living trimming toe nails and probably weren't trained for much else. Things have changed but WE appreciate the change more than others.
    Orthopedic surgeons pay their dues and put their time in. The process of becoming an orthopedic surgeon weeds out the poorer candidates, more so than Podiatry.
    My very best friend is an orthopedic. Does he look down on our profession? For the most part, yes. Does he feel there are qualified Podiatric surgeons out there? Yes. Does he think that's the norm? No!
    The situation as I see it is this; Our profession is still at the stag where if there is a foot/ankle surgeon doing very good work - they are an exception. If there is one practicing sub-standard podiatry - he's seen as the norm!
    Keep training, keep being professional, keep helping your patients and the respect we deserve will come.
    DrSArbes
     
  12. drcam

    drcam Member

    Thanks Drsarbes

    Wish I was that young! Although I've not yet got to the stage of considering a hair transplant, my waist line probably needs some work before I have start going to special shops for 'the larger man'.

    sadly - I think your probably right. In the UK we also have good and bad in both camps. It is just really quite sad to see our orthopod colleagues assume they have superior skills to us on the virtue if holding and orthopaedic qualification alone!
     
  13. Dieter Fellner

    Dieter Fellner Well-Known Member

    I doubt that being 'helpful' was on your mind when the whining started...and sadly still continues .....

    presumptuous and arrogant.... I kind of understand why the Orthopedic Surgeons don't like you much!

    presumptuous and arrogant ....again (?)- I detect a pattern! I detect no problems from orthopedic surgeons with our 'meaningful' rearfoot surgery.

    You are falling into the same kind of trap as your local Orthopods. Some folk out there(be it Orthopaedic or Podiatric) seem to want to assume a morale high ground on the basis of their surgical case mix. Kind of sad and pathetic...... In our locality we offer our patients whatever surgery is required ...be it forefoot, mid foot or rear-foot. It is all 'meaningful' - what a jerk!


    woa... now this really IS dripping with arrogance from a turbo charged ego. Oh my god !
    and sorry (not really) to dent this ego of yours but I still have no idea (nor do I care) who you are.
     
  14. drcam

    drcam Member

    Really Dieter - did you not know that putting words in bold or capitals is 'shouting' on the net. Calm down a bit mate !

    Anyhow- I really dont have time for replying any more than to say; If you want to think its arrogant, conceited etc - be my guest. My name still is Cam and I am not going under a pseudanym despite what you may think! :D I still think some unresolved ortho/pod issues exist which may be meaningfully explored to a suitable conclusion to all.
     
  15. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    [​IMG]
    ................
     
  16. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Just to take the heat out of this increasinginly personalised thread, did we in the U.K. get it wrong?

    I am old enough to be under no illusion that the orthopaedic profession will ever love us, but has the current liaision with the Scottish Royal Colleges taken us in the wrong direction?

    One of my 'dressers', a very good pod. without training in pod. surgery left some two years ago to take the 'accelerated' medical course open to suitable PAMs. I hope he returns to the fold with his BMed.BCh.

    I am certain that those who passed the old P.A. examinations and those who latterly took the Faculty of Surgery examinations arranged as part of the 'Camden Accord' would be capable of undergoing the medical degree. Current MaxFax surgeons are dual degree qualified and they lose only 40% to general medicine.

    This suggestion did not find favour with the powers-that-were 8-10 years ago but times have changed. The advantages are that the issues of drugs/medical qualification/background would be dealt with at one fell swoop. The disadvantages are really only the wastage problem and jealousy from old timers such as myself. Tough! The orthopods would simply move the goalposts but the rest of the medical profession would then perceive them as simply vindictive - heaven forefend!

    I realise that the suggestion is controversial and I do not suggest that the current excellent 'apprenticeship' modality is abandoned, nor do I in any way detract from the excellent work carried out by my colleagues. I simply think that a little lateral thinking may push the profession forward.

    Does the idea find favour or otherwise?

    All the best

    Bill Liggins
     
  17. summer

    summer Active Member

    Unfortunately there are good and bad orthopedic surgeons as well as good an bad podiatric surgeons. In my opinion the AMA is much stronger than the APMA here in the states and consequently the orthopedic community is that much stronger. While for years orthopedists have tried to limit the priveleges of podiatrists, isn't it really a "turf" war? I would place a competent podiatric surgeons skills against a competent orthopedic surgeons skills any day. I mean really, how many ways are there to perform and Austin (chevron) osteotomy etc? It really boils down to surgical skill, experience and judgement.

    For years in my hometown there was a terrible relationship between the orthopedic community and the podiatric community because of ONE orthopedic surgeon. Interestingly enough his own group ran him out, and it took years for the wounds to heal. WhileI would not consider the remaining foot and ankle orthopedists my "best friends" I can tell you that we have developed a cordial and mutually respectful relationship. In fact I have at the request of several patients recommended several of them for second opinions. In each and every case they referred the patient back to me for surgical intervention.

    We have to realize as a profession there are others who also perfom the same services that we do. There is crossover in all forms of medicine, and the angst that has been so prevalent is nothing short of silly.
     
  18. pscotne

    pscotne Active Member

    [Re Australia]
    I wonder if it might be worthwhile for podiatrists to take a long detailed looked at the length and depth of training necessary for a qualified medical practitioner to (1) enter into an accredited ACS/RACS fellowship in specialist surgery; (2) rigour of the requirements for passing the fellowship, and (3) rigour of the requirements for continuing registration as a specialist surgeon.
    Just a thought.
    Pete the Pod in Oz
     
  19. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    Pete the Pod in Oz

    Anyone who looks at podiatric surgery has no choice but to compare the training in orthopaedics/other surgical specialties in Australia.

    So to perform foot/ankle surgery in this country, the current requirements are (roughly):

    Podiatrists: UG degree (4yrs), 2 yrs clinical experience, Masters degree, Fellowship training (3-6yrs)
    Medical practitioners (ie ortho): Med degree (4-6yrs), internship etc, Fellowship training in orthopaedics via RACS (3-5 yrs)

    Fellowship examinations by the ACPS are in 2 stages and incorporate a practical and viva examination. RACS (Ortho) examinations are in 2 stages (BST and AST) and are written/station exams I believe.

    Post-Fellowship training is a different beast as well, and is just part of "life-long learning". Both RACS and the ACPS both now require ongoing peer-reviewed accreditation, and are almost identical programs.

    Obviously the main point of difference - and the whole basis of the perennial ongoing disputes - is the fact that medical practitioners learn the whole body, and spend many years getting down to the nitty gritty of foot and ankle pathology; whereas podiatrists learn about foot and ankle pathology from day 1 of uni and develop expertise in the relevant areas of medicine over many years.

    Let's not forget that podiatric surgery in this country has little if any government support, resources or funding, and is trying to compete with a massive and very well established, well-funded and resourced group such as RACS. Such is the nature of evolution...we are probably decades behind the UK, and 50 years behind the USA.

    I would suggest that the US, UK and Australian podiatric surgery training models are all roughly comparable in terms of the length of time in training.

    Not a massive difference at the end of the day I believe? Some may argue differently though... :rolleyes:

    LL
     
  20. pscotne

    pscotne Active Member

    Yeah....OK...but the argument might be whether podiatry training at undergraduate level constitutes an accredited "medical" degree vis a vis university medical school, and whether the training in surgery for podiatrists in Australia constitutes and/or is accredited by the relevant authority.
    This seems to be the gist of the debate in Oz.
    P the Pod
     
  21. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    P the Pod

    It is. The Commonwealth Government accredits podiatric surgeons under the following legislation:

    Health Legislation Amendment (Podiatric Surgery & Other Matters)

    Likewise, there is additional Commwealth legislation that covers podiatric surgery:

    National Health Amendment (Prostheses)

    Notwithstanding this, each Podiatrists Registration Board in Australia has a policy regarding the practice of podiatric surgery according to State/Territory podiatry legislation.

    Yes. Podiatrists do not go to medical school. Likewise for decades oral & maxillofacial surgeons only did dental degrees. No other western country requires podiatric surgeons to undertake a medical degree.

    Apples & oranges.

    LL
     
  22. pscotne

    pscotne Active Member

    LL :) Mmmm sorry, but I'm not sure about this accreditation argument.
    For example, I did not know that the "government" accredits any medical training - for some reason, I thought it was the Australian Medical Council. Of course I could be in error here.
    But anyway, it's time for an Aspro and a nice lie-down on the couch for a while.
    Pete :confused:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2007
  23. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member


    Accreditation is a phenomenon of the late 90's and and early noughties.

    The Australian Medical Council is an independent body separate to government who, amongst other things, accredits specialist training programs, medical school etc, and advises government about the nature and extent of these programs. ie expert medical practitioners assessing the quality of other medical practitioners.

    Likewise our own Australasian Podiatry Council is charged with the responsibility of accrediting undergraduate podiatry school programs, though i don't believe they have ever sought to "accredit" postgraduate training programs like the Fellowships in Podiatric Surgery or Podiatric Sports Medicine.

    Unfortunately the AMC only accredits "medical" programs and specialist training, and has no ability or inclination to assess non-medical programs. It would help podiatric surgery enormously if they did me thinks.

    So, in leu of this, I understand the ACPS was forced to lobby directly to the Commonwealth to have their training program assessed by the Dept of Health & Ageing to allow for individual podiatric surgeons to be accredited by the Commonwealth for the purposes of health insurance rebates.

    Unfortunately it is difficult to push a square peg into a round hole.

    Solution? Many more years of work, lobbying and negotiations with the key stakeholders and government to find a satisfactory compromise. As is the case in the UK, and the USA, there will always be an "us" and "them" issue here.

    Maybe the incorporation of Australian podiatric surgery into RACS will one day be the solution, as is being developed in the UK with the RCS(Edin)? Don't hold your breath though. :rolleyes:

    Time for a beer.

    LL
     
  24. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the comments. I'm not sure about apples and oranges, I just wonder whether the profession (internationally) might not be better served with a medical degree in addition to the already excellent training in Pod. Surg. It might help the new generation, but I would definitely see it in terms of the MaxFax dual degree, not a sublimation in the orthopaedic world and all that would entail.

    All the best

    Bill

    P.S. L.L. love the 'noughties'. Is that an Ozism?
     
  25. pscotne

    pscotne Active Member

    :)
    Yes...from my perspective a medical degree [as per UniWA in Australia] in podiatry would seem to be the way to go and then surgical training under the auspices of the RACS. This, one would hope, should bring an end to or at least allay the bickering.

    By the way [is that what BTW stands for?] I believe the AMC claims that they have never received any application from APodC or ACPS for accreditation of podiatric surgical training.

    I think I'll take 2 Bex powders and go back into Engineering. :D

    Pete the Pod Oz [or is that PedOz]
    :eek:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2007
  26. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    Bill

    I thought that was accepted nomenclature for our decade? Maybe it is is an Ozism? Glad you enjoyed it.

    Pete the Pod

    Not trying to drag this out, but it should be no surprise that the AMC has not received any submissions from the ACPS or APodC. That is because we are 'podiatrists', and the AMC as mentioned previously, only deals with matters relating to the medical profession.

    Yet another example of accreditation beauracracy is the Australian Dental Council. They 'accredit' the many and varied dental specialties (eg paeds, orthodontics, oral medicine, oral pathology etc). In the somewhat unique case of Max/Fax - this accredited by both the AMC and ADC - naturally enough considering that group holds dual degrees.

    Strangely enough, a mate of mine is just finishing his training in Max/Fax, and tells me since the change to dual degrees, the broader dental profession has taken some umbridge to the 'loss' in identity in dentistry (alone) managing oral surgery...the result? A new tier of 'less dramatic' oral surgery dentists is on the way with Master's qualifications - full circle?

    If there is one day a move by Commonwealth countries to make podiatric surgeons undertake a fast-track medical degree as well, we will probably find that 'regular' podiatrists with a surgical bent will still want to train/practice some measure of osseous surgery (perhaps just confined to forefoot) without going through the hassle of a medical degree. Just a thought.

    As a further aside...accreditation is going to be front and centre of the new National Registration scheme being brought in by COAG. So I feel that the level of tranparency and expert 3rd party vetting of podiatric surgical audit data and quality assurance programs may solve this whole debate in the coming year or two.

    Finally, considering RACS is on the public record as being vehemently opposed to podiatric surgery, I don't see the same type of relationship as is developing with the RCS(Edin) for some many years yet. Would be nice though...

    LL

    PS. The UWA degree is still just a podiatry degree - no more, no less. The department is, however, uniquely located in the School of Surgery & Pathology - which is where every podiatry school should be!
     
  27. drcam

    drcam Member

    I just wanted to say thanks to all of the 'posters' regarding this subject, though the thread has evolved a little from my original one. I am glad to see it has turned into a relativley constructive argument.

    This current 'line' of thinking is really an interesting subject, for me anyway as I completed my Doctorate in 2005 looking at whether an MD degree was actually necessary or just 'helpful' from a sociopolitical standpoint.

    The reality (and I can only draw from the results of my work based upon the UK Pod Surgeons) is that Pod Surgeons medical knowledge of systems of control (i.e cardiovascular) is adequate and suffiecient for the type of work they do currently. The rub comes as we move from healthy individuals with elective surgical problems into managing those with more medical illness but still realtivley straightforward podiatric conditions, i.e. bunions on an ASA 3 patient. The method we as PS's investigate the cardio system is slightly different from traditional medical models, but the outcome diagnosis is not the same. Un-suprisingly, those who find a CV illness refer onto an appropriate physician.

    The upshot being (from talking and investigatin the UK surgical community, an MD or MBChB will give more peripheral knowledge and provide a greater depth of other diseases with the necessary skills to treat them, but is unlikely to impact the knoweldge base significantly of the safety of body systems during surgery. It would make more sence to provide the Podiatric Surgical community with the ability to prescribe medicines which may not be necessary for their procedure, but necessary for the safety of the patient (eg. insulin, atropine etc) and deepen the understanding of the main systems of control and their response to perioperative care.

    The gem of 'you cannot be safe because you do not hold a medical degree' just does'nt hold water any more.

    As to whether an medical degree is necessary on a sociopolitical level...ah... well that is a different story all togeather.

    Cam
     
  28. drcam

    drcam Member

    sorry----- eratum.. should read '' the method of investigation is different from the medical model but the outcome/ diagnosis 'IS' the same.

    apologies

    cam
     
  29. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Hi Dr Cam

    I don't disagree with you - and you've obviously looked at the subject in depth; however, I do feel that there may a practically greater gain in obtaining an MB.ChB than just access to drugs, important though that is. I am thinking particularly of hospital beds access, automatic G.A. access and recognition nationally/internationally as a part of Medicine (capitalization deliberate).

    I suppose that the latter might be regarded as sociopolitical but that too is important as it would allow our numerous supporters in medicine to wholeheartedly back us, whilst at the moment they are in an ambivalent situation, or so I have been told.

    I'm not hard and fast on this, just interested in feedback.

    All the best

    Bill
     
  30. drcam

    drcam Member

    Bill

    I quite agree that there are issues with this and in the future for the sake of a slightly more peaceful life for all, an MBChB might be what is required - its just the practical aspects the concern me. I am 36 yrs old and like all of us have studied etc till I was in my early 30 years and have only really just now started to get on with my career in surgery. I worry a little about how I would realistically go to medical school, do my foundation year, house jobs etc and then FRCS, only to then do what I already do. If we start asking new grads to follow this route, it will impact our older colleagues and force many into early retirement, essentially unable to compete, and disenfranchise our middle career colleagues like me, having to face only slightly younger Pod surgeons, armed with an MBChB.
    If there was a route whereby we were able to do a 'top up' type degree (not 4 yrs FT plus house jobs etc) then we may be on to something. Otherwise, I just dont know how feasable this all is.

    Cam
     
  31. pscotne

    pscotne Active Member

    :rolleyes: Appreciate your comments LL and, yes, all podiatry education should be housed within a Faculty of Medicine...

    I was enrolled [don't ask when!] in the Medical School at Adelaide University for one term only after graduating in podiatry [the former SAIT back in those days] and, frankly, I was stunned at the depth of knowledge medical students had to have. For example, to go on to pharmacology and pharmacokinetics they had to pass well first year university organic chemistry some of the topics of which included stereochemistry and isomerism, and others, that are critical in understanding drug function and adverse reactions. I was surprised, given that the podiatry profession wished to evolve more medically, that prerequisite year 12 high school subjects did NOT include chemistry! However, while that was a long time ago I believe that this may still be the case. Correct me if this is wrong.

    Pete the Pod

    PS: I checked out the UniWA website and found that there may be some confusion in what they are offering in the near future viz a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine, a Doctor of Podiatric Surgery, or both????
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2007
  32. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
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    They will be just postgraduate clinical doctorates (almost a PhD equivalent). Many University's offer them (we do) in clinical disciplines, but with generic names rather than the specific names that UWA are planning.
     
  33. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    Pete the Pod

    I have heard that they will be planning to offer both doctorates.

    The Doctor of Podiatric Surgery - obviously for surgery, and the Doctor of Podiatric Medicine (DPM) will be a bit like the oral medicine specialisation in dentistry, more than a USA style DPM.

    Interesting, I have heard that podiatrists have been granted access to the ?protected title of 'physician' in WA, and that was part of the impetus for the DPM... :confused:

    Craig, offering a "DPM" or "DPS" in Australia makes sense to me than the generic prof Doc's that are out there in postgrad course marketplace. What say you?

    LL
     
  34. pscotne

    pscotne Active Member

    The doctorate of whatever - whether pure research or professional - should be gauged on the rigour demanded by the conferring body - I would think.
     
  35. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    Sorry - don't quite follow you.

    Are you suggesting that the marketplace can't/shouldn't gauge the perceived value of the university that confers the degree?

    In this era, I know of lots of students that will shop around for the institution that can provide a degree that they think best suits their needs.

    Just look at the competition in the MBA market!

    LL
     
  36. pscotne

    pscotne Active Member

    ...offering a "DPM" or "DPS" in Australia makes sense to me than the generic prof Doc's that are out there in postgrad course marketplace.

    :) LL - My comment was in response to your comment about "generic prof Docs" as I'm not sure what you mean by "generic" if the degree is, in fact, a recognised Doctorate with the necessary rigour for examination.

    I think my headache is coming back again - I'll try a couple of VBs then another lie down.

    Cheers :D
     
  37. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

     
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