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Title 'Dr' UK

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Davidj, May 1, 2016.

  1. Davidj

    Davidj Member


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    Hi all


    I know this has been done to death but I'm slightly interested as its now 2016.

    In the UK a number of HCP (dentists, vets and chiro) are adopting the title 'Dr' and without going into the PhD issue as outside that qualification it appears the use of 'Dr' is purely of ones own choice as there appears to be no regulation of the title. As I understand it in some parts of Europe eg Portugal and in Malta the title 'Dr' can and is used by Podiatrists. Again in Australia and Canada this is also the case. I'm just slightly curious on UK take of this. Where does one stand if one chooses to use this title? Legally are we vulnerable? The Society of Chiropodists and Podiatrist in complete fear of the GMC and BMA would never support it I'm sure. I'm not sure what the HCPC could do in reality ( as long as one clearly states one is not a medical physician). In law I think it would be very difficult to prosecute as if it is adopted in europe and commonwealth countires ( not sure about NZ) there would be a robust defence. The main issue is that there is considerable disparity. Those wishing to adopt the title can and those wishing not to can refrain. Will it take a few mavericks to adopt the title in the UK to settle the debate once and for all? It would be nice to have endorsement from the society (I would not hold my breath), what could realistically be done to stop this?

    My personal take on it is that may raise the profile and reflect the scope practice and level of education that is needed to qualify and practise. It just seems odd that if others can adopt the title in comparative counties of equal standards of education etc then why can't UK Podiatrists? It is funny question really as in law it seems there on reason why they cannot as it is not a protected title. Apart from the advertising standards and false representation what is stopping this.

    Please note this not about bad days and egos. It is an interesting debate that I'm interested in what my colleagues think.

    Regards David
    MChS, MSc, Grad Dip, BSc(Hons), PgCert.
     
  2. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    It is an interesting question, because in law it is the 'intent to deceive' element that is paramount. Not to anticipate anything the judge might determine in the Mark Russel case, it seems that this is the situation with a qualified podiatrist who might choose not to be registered with the HCPC using his (or her) title.

    The debate whether the use of the title 'Dr.' by non-PhD pods is desirable or not is a separate question. The Society (of which you appear to be a member) is a trade union and should be able to advise on such matters of law. Would you please post their reply to your question?

    Bill Liggins
     
  3. Davidj

    Davidj Member

    Hi Bill

    Thanks for the reply.

    Yes there are two debates here. Given the number of Pods in the UK it is evidently not that hot a topic.

    Surely the RCVS and the GDC would have to support their member’s re-'intention to deceive'? I'm not familiar with Mark Russell case, was Mr. Russell not registered the HCPC?

    Interestingly I was under the impression that the Society (College of Podiatrists) also lobby’s on behalf of its members and appears to be the most professionally and politically active? I will contact them for a take on the situation. A statement by them may be something that is needed, it may certainly and formally open the debate once and for put it to bed one way or another. A simple ballot of members may be appropriate as the RCVS did. I think the problem modern healthcare faces is the expanding role, education, scope of practice and the clinical responsibility vastly differs from the previous historical roles of delivering healthcare. A simpler solution would be to protect the use of 'Doctor' to all except those who have attained a higher academic degree full stop. Dr. (MD) would be Physician. I note that last year the RCVS members voted overwhelmingly to use the title cursory title Dr.(with the caveat the it would be e.g. ‘Dr. Fred Bloggs Doctor of Vetenary surgery’). Why not Dr. Fred Bloggs Dr. of Podiatry’?

    As a side note you will notice with the exception of Osteopaths and chiropractor the Medics, Vets and Dentists have now adopted the title. Historically and one could argue even today they have the strongest lobbying and do still command great respect from the public. From a perspective (I may shoot myself in the foot here) of podiatry struggling to gain recognition and confidence as a profession I think the use of title may move the public perception up a gear. Having said that the onus and the responsibility of using such a title hangs clearly over the head of the podiatrist and this may not be a bad thing. After all the profession is moving into higher levels of clinical practice which is often difficult to differentiate from (medics etc) and one could argue that this should be recognised? I feel a can of worms opening here!!

    Whilst this is only a debate it is certainly interesting why one can have something and not the other!

    Kind regards

    David
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
  4. simonf

    simonf Active Member

    David, I know you have said things about raising the profile and reflecting scope of practice, but can you explain how, by using the Dr title this actually happens?

    As it transpires I practiced as a Dr of podiatry whilst working in Canada, it didnt make me any richer or enhance the service I offered to my patients, although other healthcare professionals thought it odd that we were referred to as Drs although most only held a BSc (or diploma).
     
  5. Davidj

    Davidj Member

    Simon,
    I'm suggesting anything really. I think I put it out to discussion. I was simply highlighting the disparity in titles. Is a dentist, Physican, Osteopath, Vet, Chiropracter et al any better at what they deliver? I don't know. I was considering whilst one can use it why can't others? As for the BSc all of the above are undergraduate degrees as is podiatry. Not sure I understand what you're alluding to?

    David
     
  6. Adrienne

    Adrienne Member

    Dear David,

    Perhaps you may wish to look at the UCAS points necessary for medicine, dentistry and Veterinary science and their scope of practise at under graduate level. I think you will find the reason why they are able to call themselves 'doctor' is their training and surgical scope of practise is far beyond ours and the academic requirements to gain a place on the course is far superior. If, unlike me, you cannot be bothered to undertake the work to write an 80,000 word thesis and gain a PhD, then take a leaf out of Dr John Cooper Clarke's book and get yourself an honorary doctorate. At least he has the sense of humour and irony necessary for those using the title without putting in the academic effort. I understand 'Professor' is up for grabs too for those who are unable or unwilling to undertake their doctorate and publish their research.
     
  7. Davidj

    Davidj Member

    Adrienne

    Thank you for your unhelpful contribution to the debate. I think if you clearly read my initial post I wasn't advocating anything. I was pointing out the fact that colleagues aboard and in likewise European countries have adopted the title. If you feel that our colleagues somehow should remain deferential to 'superior professionals' that is your choice. It is not mine. Evidently, you seem frustrated and have little regard to the continuing scope of practice and clinical acumen the profession has developed over the years. maybe UCAS has it wrong? Or of course you have no idea what you are talking about. I am indifferent of either. If you wish to vent spleen on academic and professional debate please go somewhere else. For the record I have a Master of Science degree along with two other science degrees and am I am seeking funding for a PhD. Don't bother replying please.

    Kind regards
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2016
  8. fishpod

    fishpod Well-Known Member

    ime with Adrienne on this one we are chiropodists nothing else be happy accept the fact the average gradute age of a pod is 32 many dont even have A levels they take access courses. A big dose of reality is needed doctors and vets we are not.
     
  9. If you want to use the title Dr in the UK then earn it, rather than de-value it. But then I would say that, wouldn't I? For the record, 99.5% of my patient's call me "Simon" and I'm more than comfortable with that- titles don't bestow a level of clinical ability on any individual, only a level of academic learning. As an aside, my brother is a dental surgeon, worth several million- he doesn't use the title "Dr". Ask yourself what you think such a title will bring? Guarantee that it won't.
     
  10. Davidj

    Davidj Member

    I find it very interesting that people are so scarcastic and negative. Obviously the current replys infact suggest that Podiatrists do lack what our other 'colleagues' have in professionalism and maturity. I think if people wish to vent spleen may I sugget you point your finger at those in other parts of the world (with comparible qualifications) who use this titie. I was just the messenger but evidently this is problematic for you. Interestingly no one has commednted on the use of the title being discretionay for ALL with exception of Academic Dr. I assume all the replys are form those who have completed a Doctrate. All the best and dont take your titles to seriously, you can't take them with you.
     
  11. I think you'll find it is "suggest" not "sugget", "comparable" not "comparible", "from" not "form", "too" seriously and not "to" seriously etc. For the record, I don't. :morning: Good luck with your PhD studies- honestly. We need more PhD podiatrists in the UK. But your spelling and punctuation should at present preclude you from achieving one- just an observation.
     
  12. Davidj

    Davidj Member

    Well thats funny, im in the middle of spending 12 hours at the computer. Simple spell checks are great when you time (and when your not Dyslexic). Spelling was neverf a barrier to academia for me. Im sure your a really nice guy and to pursue this ny further would be fruitless. It's just a bit of a shame. I though it was a site of credibility not a podiatric facebook.
    i wish you well

    :morning:
     
  13. There you go... a couple of lessons on the road to your PhD: 1) don't spend 12 hours on a computer; 2) do use spell check, particularly if you have dyslexia. This is a site of credibility, if you want to be taken seriously here, write in a scientific and serious tone-don't resort to insults when people don't agree with your conjecture- just some observations after too many years of writing on here- and yes, I have been guilty of falling on all of these in the past, maybe I will again in the future; I am open to learning though.
     
  14. Davidj

    Davidj Member

    Good night my friend
     

  15. Good luck with your future.
     
  16. Rob Kidd

    Rob Kidd Well-Known Member

    This whole thing cracks me up. The novelty of being called Doctor fades off by daybreak. When my students ask what they should call me I always respond with what you should not call me: "Dr, Professor or Sir. The Queen is unlikely to Knight me, and the other two are pompous. Call me Rob"
     
  17. simonf

    simonf Active Member

    medical degrees are 5 years study as is BDS, you can practice in the dental sphere witha 3 years BSc but you will be a dental hygienist

    my point about overseas medics is that they are often have double degrees or have MSc

    the disparity in title is because of the disparity in scope and education.
     
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