Vertical Facial Dimensions Linked to Abnormal Foot Motion

Rothbart has dicredited his own findings. His paper is fately flawed.

There is NO evidence in that paper. As several keep repeatedly saying in this thread and no one responds to, there are major issues with the methodolgy and analysis and what is presented can not be used to support the conclusion the author reached.

Why will no one who came here at Rothbarts urging address the issues of the publication in question?

 

Sigh.

I'll pass it along.

Welcome Chrysochloridae. Well done for a sensible post.

Not how it works. If the evidence was good then that might be the case but if the evidence is not properly generated the onus remains on the apologist not the doubters.

Also the only thing this study claims to prove is a link correlation between two aysmmetries. There is a link between waking up with a hangover and liver damage, thats not to say that hangovers are what cause liver damage or vice versa! Its a mile away from evidence for the insoles as i'm sure Brian would freely admit!

Big question. Thats another thread. For myself i think there might be something to the concept of exteroceptive change affecting muscle function but thats a long way short of buying it. I seem to remember Craig doing / quoting a study on forefoot varus extensions changing ST angles before foot flat, that could conceivably be the same principle.

Regards
Robert

 

Like i say, Brian did offer his response

I suspect the reason the others of "his supporters" don't address the issues is that they do not have much background in critical analysis of literature. Not everyone does. Brians work appeals, i suspect, to those on a more empiricist bent. For sure it ain't EBM!!!

I might be wrong

Regards
Robert

 

We'd noticed that.

Hey everybody, Simons back from culling baby seals!:butcher:

VERY Respectfully
Robert

 

Seal Clubbing [Half man Half biscuit: Back in the D.H.S.S.]
I was just sitting there eating a salmonella sandwich
When a man walked up to me
“Would you mind, dear sir, if I asked you a question –
If music be the food of love, are you the indigestion”

Found myself standing amongst a score or so of aging grans and granddads
When a frail voice asked of me
“Would you mind, dear boy, I just can’t stand all this tension
Please let me in front of you so I can cash my pension”

Frank was going through a state of depression in his bedroom
When he reached out for the jar
He swallowed every last pill and he lay back on his duvet
But a Haliborange overdose is perhaps not the right way
Ooh Ooh to kill yourself

Down beside the babbling brook I was trying to sketch myself a stallion
When the stallion said to me
“That’s the third biro that you’ve broken, all day I can not wait
You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead, mate”
Ooh ooh said the stallion

Me and my girl sealclubbing
Me and my girl out on the ice
Me and my girl sealclubbing
Me and my girl, in paradise

 

Which confirms the criticism. He deliberatly selected subjects to include that would support the theory and excluded those that would not! Data on all subjects should have been included. Perhaps a subanaylsis (using the correct methods) could have been done.

Which is an indictment on them and on their professions. They prefer to be blindly led by false prophets.

 

Well, it is wonderful to post again on this forum. I must apologize because apparently I must be suffering from Intermittent Hallucinations. Here I thought I was banned for life from this forum and I just found out that I was not. However, just in case I was right and that I was banned for life (and am not suffering from IH), let me say, Craig, it is great to be back and thank you for your change of mind (or should I say, change of heart). You are a gracious man.

I have been following this thread with fascination. SO MUCH name calling and so unprofessional. I am really quite humbled by the fact that so many people came on this forum to express their ideas about my research, knowing that they will be exposed to vituping (vituperations).

Let me say that I am quite surprised with the replies to Dr David Simons and Dr Pierre Marie Gagey. They are both well known in their fields, internationally recognized for their research (Dr Gagey authored THE standard textbook on Posturology and you all know about Dr Simons (and Dr Travell) and to call these men by their first names (something which I will not do, even through I have communicated with Dr Gagey for over 2 years), in my humble opinion shows a total lack of respect for these pioneers in medicine.

Having said all that, let's get down to business and have a meaningful discussion on my research. Take your best shots but please can the personal attacks. Remember, lay people also access this forum and when they read some of the mal intent threads, it can put a bad taste in their mouth about our profession.

Prof B

 

What would you expect? At your urging they come here to blindly offer a testimonial for you and they are incapable of offering any sort of discussion of the topic of this thread. They seem to blindly accept the flawed research rather than offer any of sort of discussion of it. Such blind faith speaks volumes about them and you.

 

Mr DaVinci,

As I said, let's have a meaningful discussion on my research.

cordially,
Prof B

 

Have you actually read what has been going on in this thread? That is exactly what we have been trying to do, but your cronies have been coming here blindly posting testimonials and making it personal about you and NOT addressing the research. Maybe you need to be telling them that!

 

Thanks Kevin
This will be my last post on this thread due to the deviation. I have made my comments on the article and have stated that I do not have the skill to discuss the data collection and analysis.
To you I was referring to the behaviour of name calling as unprofessional, not meaning to impugn your character. I am disappointed by the name calling on both sides of this argument. It took me quite a long time to even test out Brian Rothbart's ideas as I was aware even back in 2002 when I came across him of the debate within your profession. I discussed his articles with podiatric colleagues in this country and eventually decided to test them out for myself. I have quietly done that being as critical as possible to make sure I am not doing the wrong thing. I do not write this as a testimonial. As far as some of the claims made on Brian Rothbart's site I personally would choose my words more carefully. It is all too easy to be misinterpreted when you start to extrapolate what may happen to other systems as a result of postural correction. That is not to deny that changes can't happen, just that they are definitely not a given. And, you are right, I do not make these claims to my patients. I also do not worship Brian Rothbart, that is going a bit far. One does not have to believe every word of what the man says to find use in some of it. The former is an assumption too often made.

In response to Mark Russell's comment "I think you have just made a fool out of yourself for that comment on this site. What really hacks me off about Brian is his suggestion that these insoles might prevent diabetic amputation. To give false hope to those vulnerable unfortunate patients who may be facing the loss of a limb is quite despicable, in my opinion."
It seems that this would consign to the bin any research idea aimed at trying to relieve suffering or prevent surgery as it could ALL be considered as giving false hope and therefore despicable.

Anyway, it has been an interesting couple of days but I have exams to study for.

I wish you well, and hope you can find some middle ground.

Nigel Brooke

He rongoa ta te kupu. (A Maori proverb meaning words have the power to heal)

 

So, why did you exclude over half of the potetnial subjects?

Cordially,

Former Proffessor Eric

 

What a joke, Brian. You are saying that Craig and I show a total lack of respect by calling Dr. Simons by his first name?

Brian, what would you call an individual that did the following things:

1. Named himself "The Father of Chronic Pain Elimination" and posts that banner on his webpages.

2. Claims that his varus wedged insoles will cure infertility, eliminate or reduce the frequency of headaches, improve respiration, improve intestinal and bowel function, heal diabetic ulcers, and reduce menstruation pain.

3. Named a type of foot structure after himself.

4. Sells useless insole products to hundreds of patients with significant medical pathologies that are desparate for a cure but this individual seems to have no remourse in milking money out of these unfortunate souls.

What type of person would do these things? (And I'm even leaving out the difficulties that this person has had with the State of Washington):butcher:

 

Craig,

You really need to monitor this thread more closely. It is a real shame that Nigel has signed off this thread for reasons that he has delineated. He participation would have been very positive for this thread. He would have made very poignant comments. As he has said, he finds my research of value but he also has reservations. A healthy attitude to take about any new research or approach in medicine.

To answer the query regarding exclusions, as you probably already known, with Ascending postural distortions (without a concomitant Descending Component), the level of distortions varies from patient to patient (for reasons at present we have not identified). For example, asymmetrical foot pronation may just unlevel the pelvis. Or it may reach higher and impact the vertical facial dimensions. And as I have noted before, AFP does not result in postural distortions in every subject (again for reasons we have not yet identified).

After having said all that, I eliminated the 47 subjects because they exhibited no VFD, the postural distortions in these subjects did not reach that high. In the remaining subjects that did exhibit both AFP and VFD, the questions was, were they linked in anyway. Was there a pattern and if so, what was it. This was the question that motivated my paper.

Prof B

 

This is such a fun forum there are control freaks, Flat brainers or this is my paradime,
and how dare you challenge my set of knowledge, abusers, blind ones,egocentric good and proper English types,I am so righteous .I am just a fumble who thought I could contribute. The fact is as someone who has observed and studied Faces in order to observe deviation of the jaw, I don't think many will be able to asses this in clinical practice unless shown how. The best way is to put a paddle pop stick in the mouth and then the cant of the jaw is quite visible. It is important to look from the back of the head
as the person is lying down. I will rarely see a single face without some sort of deviation.
About 80% will be to the pronated side. For me correcting structure has a settling effect on the Nervous System or settling the Sympathetic Overdrive and Improvement in Blood
Flow. I have had infertile couples on unsuccessful IVF programs conceive ,about 3 cases but this is not the cure or a claim. May be its the Nervous System that needs to be looked at controlling the descending or ascending Pattern and yes I am happy to say there is an association. I know the Work Of Brendan Stack and patients walking out of wheel chairs. A lot is happening out there. There is the American Association of Cranio Facial Pain who need your expertise to help a multitude of patients. One thing I like to say about orthotics or proprioceptive insoles.If the pain in the back don't go it doesn't work . If the orthotics seem to lock up the feet I find it similar to use of braces which locks up the cranium with lots of problems. These are my observations. Often in females if the braces lock up the Cranium the periods will stop. Why?. The body is always moving or changing and anything fixed can't be good. I do not endorse Brian's
insoles but would endorse any one knowledge to create the right conditions for health outcomes. I am pretty busy to reply promptly to any one or take it personally
Love you all

 

The most extraordinary power of the human reason lies in its capacity to criticize itself... That's why we must admit that nothing of what is written in this thread is definitively true. What may enable us to go on open minded and benevolent with regard
to awkwardnesses of the ones and others speeches.

The rationalism of the Age of Enlightenment seems an obscurantism today because it ignored the historical character of the human reason... And yet it nevertheless
advanced things...

A "crumb" of philosophy in scientific circles does not hurt anybody.

 

Hi

Of course, philisophy or scientific reasoning aside, all of the above provides remarkbly free advertising be it positive or negative which perhaps serves an intended purpose!

As probably one of the least scientific and probably the most gullible posters on this forum, very open minded to both allopathic, complementary and alternative approaches I am uncomfortable with the serruptiscious nature with which Brian's work gets promoted and the way the larger questions from his research appears left unanswered.

Sorry Brian, your history of postings and possible misconstruing of information leaves me less able to take what you say as seriously as I possibly should.

Ian

 

I'm no researcher, and the likes of Messrs Payne, Kirby and Spooner could knock my research skills into a cocked hat, but I can tell one website from another, and this one below looks familarly like Rothbarts.

http://www.walktallaotearoa.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=7

Im not sorry Nigel, No-one in the world believes that a bog standard simple insole cures/corrects so many conditions, unless they are gullible fools only too eager to hand over their hard earned cash in the belief they are going to be helped.

If this insole was so damn good, why aren't the likes of Nike, Asics etc getting in on it?
What about shoe researchers who could incorporate this "technology" and sell shoes that cure-all. Are they knocking the door down?

Tell you what, when the Health Authorities across the globe are buying into the PCI ( or medial forefoot posted insole) in their millions to cure infertility, facial asymmetry and the rest, then come and see me for a humble and grovelling apology, but until then, Snake Oil seller you will be deemed in mine eyes.


BTW, waht does this mean at the foot of your webpage, under the list of suppliers?

"Content adapted for publication on WalkTallAotearoa.co.nz with permission from Posture Dynamics"

 

Ian wrote:
"Sorry Brian, your history of postings and possible misconstruing of information leaves me less able to take what you say as seriously as I possibly should."



As a very small fish in this algae-topped pond myself, I could not agree more. Shame it took 54 posts for us to get some semblance of an answer to the original criticisms, valid or otherwise:



"After having said all that, I eliminated the 47 subjects because they exhibited no VFD, the postural distortions in these subjects did not reach that high. In the remaining subjects that did exhibit both AFP and VFD, the questions was, were they linked in anyway. Was there a pattern and if so, what was it. This was the question that motivated my paper.

Brian wrote:
"It is a real shame that Nigel has signed off this thread for reasons that he has delineated. He participation would have been very positive for this thread. He would have made very poignant comments."



Personally I still cannot decide which was better, JFK or the Apollo missions. But this is not bad.

Jair