Vibram FiveFingers Cause Metatarsal Stress Fractures?

Interesting.

My feet feel much stronger having worn the plimsolls/pumps for the past month as opposed to my VFF's. The pumps have very thin soles.

 

I still think we need to make it an even dozen, Sick-nuts. :bang::craig::butcher:

 

The US Navy have authorized them

Link

 

I have not read every post here, but isn't it pretty well accepted that shoes affect the development of the metatarsal bones? I have read several papers by Eric Trinhaus on the subject:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1470209/posts


It would seem to to be an obvious link- if you remove shoes the foot develops differently....

Have under-developed metatarsal bones been correlated with increased risk of injury?

 

Correlation is not causation. I do not think you will find many evolutionary biologists who will accept what he is saying. I am pretty sure Liebermann (the barefoot guy) would not agree with him.

 

Reilly:

We know that changing loading force duration, intensity and location will change the geometry and structure of bones. There are some studies that looked at barefoot versus shod population foot shape, but I'm not sure if they have actually measured bone cross sectional area (i.e. area moment of inertia) or bone density of the metatarsals between these populations. There are some anecdotal accounts within the scientific literature that suggest a rather rapid lessening in toe separation distance with the beginning of wearing shoes. Certainly, however, I believe one could reasonably assume that walking in shoes habitually would lead to certain structural changes in the foot versus walking barefoot habitually, but I don't know of any good studies that have measured these parameters.

One thing I am certain of: running in shoes does not weaken feet. Some of the thickest cortices of metatarsals I have seen on AP radiographs were from long distance runners who wore shoes to run. Shoes don't weaken feet, they simply modify the loading forces on the foot versus the barefoot condition. The barefoot running zealots that suggest that running shoes weaken feet don't know what they are talking about.

 

I am willing to accept that if shoes affect the force on the foot there can be a change in foot morphology. I am not inclined to accept that this change is problematic. Barefoot proponents might describe this as "un-natural", but I can't think of a reason why "less robust" (Trinhaus's wording) 4th and 5th metatarsal bones would cause an issue (unless one starts running long distances in minimalist shoes). I would think the problems associated with living in barefeet would greatly exceed the problems associated with less robust metatarsal bones.

By the way, if you think the barefoot humans are a difficult group, you should see the barefoot horse crowd:

http://www.bitlessbridle.com/dbID/342.html

 

Kevin: So here we are with the Kirby Double Standard which The Arena Falls for as more than a Charlatan Opinion.

You start with physical laws which cannot be denied which has no relevance to proving your point.
Then you state that there are no studies (only level 1 at best anecdotes) to actually prove the argument at hand.

Then you state that YOU Certainly Believe one can reasonably assume (a huge piece of B_ _ L S_ _ T stating again that there is no evidence to justify your assumption.

The you state One thing I am certain of running in shoes do not weaken feet, blah, blah, blah.
PLEASE SITE EVIDENCE FOR THIS STATEMENT OF CERTAINTY!!, Please..

or put your opinions and hypothetical beliefs and the crap you want us all to call physics in the same pile of S_ _ T that you put mine in where it belongs.

Dennis

 

Where is the evidence that they DO weaken the muscles? I can accept more logical and theoretical arguments that they don't weaken them than they do weaken them. We had a thread on this:
http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=62282

 

Hi, I understand you have all worked very hard to get to this point and i really respect that. I'm getting very sick of coming on to learn something, only to see grown men having a p@@ng contest. Surely we can share information in a non combative way? Sure it's fun to read, but i could also go watch Bold and the Beautiful when I want some brain numbing conflict. How about using some polite language and showing some respect to get your point across? Just a suggestion. It is really putting me off this site, sick of wading through all the personal issues you have with each other to read something of interest - am sure this would cut down time on here. Maybe put personal attacks in a separate category eg The Boxing Ring? Cheers

 

For the three years that I am a Senior Member of The Arena, I (and others) have been personally attacked (allowed, even fueled and encouraged by the administrators) by the protectors of its tenets:
no evidence, no care
tissue stress rules
pathology specific (your patient must wait to present with a chief complaint before care can be rendered)
subtalar joint neutral shells (in spite of the smoke to the contrary)
ORF's can do anything
etc.

This leads to a robotic, rearfoot weighted, "get sick and come to me" paradigm of Biomechanics that patients don;t approve of.

My personal opinion is that their biomechanics eliminates prevention, performance enhancement and quality of life issues because they do not bear a chief complaint when crying for care.
I think that is a wedge to the the applications of Biomechanics that I have practiced for 40 years, PERIOD.

Until then, sorry to you and others that must bear the lack of examination, editing, openmindedness and outright, abusive bias (eventual physical threats) that lives here on The Arena when it is challanged with opposition.

Summarily, whenever the challanges get too close to exposing its weakness, flaws or downright lies, The Arena pisses. I am merely pissing back as a counterpuncher.
The ball is in The Arena Court.

Read the early posts on functional foot typing (a site that the administrator has stopped...selectively....along with others.... when challenged) to taste the welcoming venom of The Arena to opposing points of view.

Kevin does not have the right to make his acronyms, theories, experiments and opinions LAW, as neither do I. They must be proven worthy of concensus.
But it should be an even and open Colluseum. We shouldn't be treated like Christians.

The Arena forces the likes of me to Patent, Trademark and be entrepeneurial as they shut the door to conventional scientific methods of delivery and examination.

I will continue to counter on these pages, until he stops taking opportunities to piss on me personally as we both have the right to influence the history of biomechanics.

Kevin is a self made, fueled, published and promoted scientist which actually, mirrors my career as well.
It is his simultaneous, mean, abusive and directed agenda to reduce the impact of those who challange his work and words that is offensive and dampening to his net worth and that, young lady, is not my style, until provoked.

He has no real following in America (as neither do I) because we have edited him (and me) over the years. If he did, Biomechanics would be flourishing in America, like in the days of Dr. Root, instead of dying a slow death.

If you are skillfully teasing me to go away or to stop dissenting in your posting, you are the Seductress of The Arena. If you are blind to what I am saying, open your eyes and take a breath of fresh air.

and finally,

have you ever "examined" Wellness Biomechanics?

Peace.

Dennis

 

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."

Albert Einstein

 

I'm sorry, being usually a patient person who will happily listen to and be prepared to learn from ANYONE and as one who has probably contributed little to this site, but I am seriously bored with Dennis's words about how the podiatry world is against him (don't bother unsolicited emailing me again Denis as you did last time I said I was bored with this stuff).

I feel I am unable to tolerate such self pitying posts any more so I will have to endeavour to cease to read any posts that have his name on them. The sad thing now is that even any gems he might have are lost in self pitying vitriol.

Denis I cannot help but feel that the greatest detriment to your cause is not the podiatry world but your attitude.

 

Ian:

What have been the gems of the past?

Dennis

 

http://runfree.co.uk/products/inov-8/evoskin?gclid=CIyu9vr0hasCFYUntAod3BzWzA

Anyone seen these?

 

Discussed briefly here

 

Thanks Bob, finally, something to do with the topic. I look at these and think.. what do they add to a bare foot? Not protection from stones/glass etc like the vibrams may do (if not too sharp), so then I wonder..what's the point? Very pretty though..but so were jelly sandals in the 80s.

 

BTW Dennis, I am neither a 'seductress of the arena' nor ignorant. BTW 'challange' is spelt with an e. PS your (and whoever elses) politics belong in another forum. Stick to facts, not fighting..

 

I have stated on this forum that during the "running revolution" led by the waffle trainer, there was a huge increase in running injuries, including stress fractures and that I been around hundreds, maybe a thousand, cases of stress fractures that developed in heeled running shoes, personally. These fractures continue to occur today and the plantar fascial, metatarsal, leg, thigh, hip, pelvic and low back injuries continue (increase?) as well as the shoe manufacturers claim to add safety features to their heeled shoes.

Kevin started the "panic" over barefoot running stress fractures in order to gain the limelight and the pulpit that he pines for because he lived through the running revolution too but has his blinkers on for personal gain.

4% of women get autoimmune diseases. During the breast implant "panic", every women with autoimmune disease and breast implants sued Dow Corning into non existence as they were "proven" to be linked.

History showed us that it was 4% of women with breast implants involved as before the implants and those rich women and lawyers and poor Dow were victorious and damaged respectfully in a hyped war that was created and fostered by the lawyers.

I stated that injury in running, in my opinion, comes from the obsessive, driving, strong willed, willing to take pain personalities and almost religious passion of the participants to over do and almost foster injury as a test to their limits.

All forms of running injury (as opposed to competitive injury) have two main sources and that is TMTS, "too much too soon" and "NL", no limits.

What they wear may dampen the ultimate limit when comparing bare with shod but the root causes are the same.

Pushing too hard and too fast and pushing the limits beyond the biomechanical and physical capabilities of each runner leads to injury no matter what cadence, velocity, foot gear, terrain, etc, is being ran in and on.

I am abused on these pages on my body fat, BMI, lack of running, etc, along with pictures, in order to dampen the power of my words. We all know that has nothing to do with their strength.
My image on this site reflects the lack of editing and the lack of strength in the character of those members who selectively allow the abuse to exist.

Until there is a change in the silent majorities vision and attitude, including yours, I will integrate my politics wherever I please young lady and your inviting me to debate without politics on this or any other page without censuring others side as well, personally, speaks towards your title of Seductress.

Dennis

BTW, seductress, have you ever corrected the spelling of anyone else here on The Arena?
If you reviewed my work instead on my spellling (purposeful third "L") maybe your ignorance factor (ignorant of my work) would reduce.

 

I think I detect a similar flavour from other posts and I would be surprised if I was alone in thinking how unfortunate this forum has been in attracting some contributors in recent times. It has always been a pleasure, hitherto, to spend time here with like minded colleagues discussing and debating all aspects of our vocation, more often with wit and good humour in a collaborative and cooperative environment. Podiatry Arena is a fabulous resource for our profession - in years to come, students will use this site as much as their published textbooks to study how new developments in podiatric medicine and surgery evolved. As much as it is a community, it is also a historical record and that carries a great value.

Regrettably, but perhaps understandably, there are contributions which are not so valuable. Indeed my Sunday afternoon reading has been blighted yet again by the spiteful, mindless, ordure that masquerades as Dr Shavelson's written words. It will be, at best, a distraction for the reader in the future; at worst, a hindrance and an unnecessary obstacle in furthering their knowledge.

Whilst usually being vociferously against any form of censorship, if any of the moderators or Admin personnel were to find a way to delete all of Dr Shavelson's contributions, they would be doing this profession a great service indeed, for nothing I have read of his contributions have any merit or value whatsoever, unless, of course, one is a student of psychiatry and mental illness.

 

Dennis since you've approached the subject of personal gain, let's examine your history and let your colleagues decide how credible you are and if avarice plays the larger role in your motives:

http://www.chirosmart.net/rst/sone.txt

Who is the seductress now Dennis?

I bet you forgot that was still on the internet? So which is it; are chiropractors capable of dispensing foot orthoses when you gain financially or not when you fail to persuade them that "you're the guy" that can teach them? This is a huge contradiction to the effluence of statements in which you have claimed podiatrists superior to all other professions in dispensing foot orthoses (or orthotics if you're doing the marketing to DC's). If you truly meant anything that you claim you would have never held that position Dennis so what was your motive back in 2000, please enlighten us?

This is proof that you attempted to solicit chiropractic doctors to use a lab that you were consultant to and it was written in 2000. You were the one who contacted me just this year and tried to persuade me to introduce your system into the chiropractic market. When I balked you then went on a tirade on this forum about how chiropractors and C.Ped's were incapable of the magnificent biomechanical knowledge and skill that FFT requires blah, blah...and then threatened to sue me if I attempted to use FFT (that won't be happening, no worries).

The truth is that it is you that is trying to make a name for himself. The truth is that it is you who contradicts his previous statements and who argues incessantly, hurls diatribes and insults and it is you who perpetually derides others for their success and contributions to your profession. Period.

At what point did you create FFT and your lab, what year Dennis? Was it before or after you were a consultant to ChiroView? You can't deny this one Dennis, it's there in plain English for all to see and it is damningly contradictory to what you write here.

You failed then and you've failed now and you've deceived everyone that your motives are purely for the benefit of the your profession. You're purely out for a buck.

That will be your legacy Dennis.

Dennis you're a reprobate misogynist to boot.

(my apologies to Perthpod and anyone else who is weary of this but it had to be said)

 

Your desire to quiet voices of discontent speak of a profession..but in reality they speak of a paradigm that you would die to defend rather than have it integrated or diluted.

Interesting that you make this request and have it seconded on the 10th Anniversary of 9-11.
For me, Biomechanics Imitate Life.

Dennis

 

David

Thank you for the enlightened detective work. Isn't it remarkable that if you scratch the surface of the so-called "work" of the likes of Messrs Shavelson and Rothbart you discover the primary desire is not to further the knowledge and understanding of foot function and dysfunction but the less altruistic goal of feathering one's nest, no matter what? Never mind, now that I'm inextricably linked to 9/11, I should be able to publish my memoirs and theories on how the twin towers weren't brought down by two jet airliners but by ten thousand dissatisfied and angry Shavelson customers banging their esoteric orthotics on New York's pavements.

Happy days.

 

"Interesting that you make this request and have it seconded on the 10th Anniversary of 9-11.
For me, Biomechanics Imitate Life."

Dennis, I think you should hang your head in absolute shame.

 

I have just read these posts, and all I can say is WOW.

i'm with Perthpod.. lets get back to the real discussions guys. Drsha is irrelevant

 

since Kevin got to be the world's angriest podiatrist, a title I rightly feel was mine, I bet he is bummed he did not get to be the "seductress"'.. that is hilarious.. congratulations on your award..

 

Bahaha ;D Can I please change my Username to Seductress? Im sure thats a fabulously professional light in which to be seen

Bringing 9-11 into this made me feel physically ill, this has gone too far. I think we might need some clarification on objective and subjective information sharing:

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-objective-and-subjective/

I feel that the latter is fine if to do with sharing anecdotal evidence...it is not fine when personally attacking others on a forum. I'm surprised some people have gotten this far with the amount of abuse going on. I cant believe people are discussing their 'BMIs' on a stress fracture thread...whooo cares?!!!! Go on the biggest loser site. Or, as previously suggested, make a boxing ring topic. Im sick of coming on here to wade through vicious personal attacks.
Respect,
The Seductress ;D

 

As per your suggestion, I will go back to posting on subject and refrain from personalizing.

I will however remain vigilant towards those posts which are unevidenced and opinion laden.

Dennis

 

Ive got orthotics to grind so have sent this thread to the Boss for him to decide what to do.

Please keep to topic.

 

I will use from prerogative to respond to this post from the previous page

You are right about that, but the point of this thread was that to counter all the claims that barefoot/minimalist running leads to less injuries which clearly is not the case.