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What's a Pom???

Discussion in 'Break Room' started by Kevin Kirby, Sep 28, 2009.


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    Having visited the UK, Australia and New Zealand to lecture quite a few times, I thought I had heard most of their respective slang words. However, in recent discussions here on Podiatry Arena, there has been quite a few times that the word "pom" has been used, and I assume in a negative way, to describe someone who is British. I had never heard this word before and am interested in its origins. What exactly does it mean and when would one use it normally in a conversation??
     
  2. I've always understood that it was short for pomegranate. Why the colonials should liken us to that particular fruit I have no idea!!! No more random that "roast beef" I suppose.

    Certainly not an offensive moniker so far as I can see.

    Your pommie friend
     
  3. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    You will get a pretty thorough exposition in Wikipedia under alternative names for the British.

    Bill Donaldson
     
  4. this is from wikipedia

    I was always told it stands for prisoner of his majesty service. POMS which then was shortened to pom. As you are probably aware irony is an important tool in Australian humour.

    You may also be aware that Australia started as a big jail for the English. Over time these people were let out to help grow the new nation . These people in Australia though they had it pretty good and those left in England were the prisoners.
     
  5. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Hi Kevin

    Both the Oxford English Dictionary and the Australian National Dictionary state that the origin of the word is 'obscure'. It first appeared in print in 1915, and like it's abbreviation 'pom' referred to a British soldier. Robert is correct in that the most likely to refer to 'pomegranate' which may be because the colour of the fruit was reflected in the red sunburn acquired by newly arrived Brits, or the hideous mangling of the English language by our convict friends (I'm still suffering from the humiliation of being beaten 6-1 in the one day cricket) who tried to rhyme pomegranate with immigrant. It only works if you try to speak with an Australian accent.

    Some claim that early prisoners had to wear an armband with the word 'POME' to distinguish them from the oh-so-charming people already inhabiting that land, POME being an acronym for 'Prisoners Of Mother England'. That is certainly spurious, mainly because they didn't wear such an armband. ('The Fatal Shore', Robert Hughes) . This was probably picked up as an extension of the true story that Egyptian labourers working for the British army during the war in the Sudan in the late 19C were given armbands to wear marked 'WOGS' for 'Working On Government Service'. The term Wog is now considered offensive, particularly because xenophobic Brits occasionally use the term 'Wogs begin at Calais' (Calais being the nearest point of France, a mere 20 miles from Dover).

    Anyway, that is a digression. The term 'Pommie' used to be frequently used as a precursor to 'bastard'. Strangely, in the Australian tongue 'bastard' is not necessarily a perjorative expression, whilst Pommie definitely is. The politically correct Australian government banned Australians from using the term, which is why, of course, many Englishmen do so, just to tease the convicts (Australians).

    In point of fact, deep down we get along pretty well even though we have to occasionally teach them how to play cricket all over again.

    All the best

    Bill
     
  6. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

  7. carolethecatlover

    carolethecatlover Active Member

    Dear Kevin,
    Quite a history lesson. I am a Pom. British resident of Australia. Not offended by regular use of it. Here WOG is not offensive either, just means an Australian of Mediterrenian ancestry. Italians, Greeks, Lebanese etc.... I have to laugh, reading the above, Gai- Jin means 'foreigner' in Japanese, the Japanese living in Australia, refer to the European Australians as Gai-Jin....we are foreigners in our own country. Interestingly, no offense on either side when the Native Aborigines call us 'whitefellas' and themselves 'blackfellas'. I was at a dinner party and there was a black American and the Aussies, Polacks, and Poms there were enumerating the Americans we knew in Australia, He asked, is so and so Black? We all thought the correct word was 'African-American'...this was drummed into us during the Olympics. He was a well-travelled piano man, who had sung his way around the world, very cool guy. By the by, all the Americans we knew were in business for themselves, Aus is the land of opportunity for YANKS! LOL Carole
     
  8. Tkemp

    Tkemp Active Member

    I am commonly referred to as "the Pom" at work and if anything goes wrong its generally "cos the Pom was in the same building", etc, etc.
    I call them a bunch of convicts.... :rolleyes:
    we understand each other very well and no real contempt or abuse is meant. It has become almost a term of affection - if they are polite, then I worry!! :drinks

    Australians are very laid back and throw insults at each other all the time (or so I have found) but you know where you stand with them.

    So basically the term "Pom" can be used as: a nickname, as a form of friendly ribbing, as a description of someone from England (they do actually distinguish between the Welsh and Scots where I am... and hold them in higher esteem), or as a form of abuse. It depends on the context and how it is spoken.
    Hope that helps:empathy:
     
  9. Thanks to all for your very informational responses. Here in the States, we might call those from England "Brits" I suppose, but don't ever hear any more colorful language being used to describe them. As far as many of us are concerned, myself included, after John, Paul, George and Ringo came over, we loved those Brits.:drinks
     
  10. pommypod

    pommypod Member

    I moved out to OZ in Feb this year. In the Uk I was identified by my 'broad northen accent' which is actually quite condecending implying I'm an idiot.( I have a Masters degree in diabetes and looking at a PhD) In OZ I am affectionately known as the 'Pom' which identifies an English accent as most Ozzies dont know regional Uk accents. Everyone I meet is always interested in my background and where i'm from and are far more polite than Brits in the UK.
     
  11. ja99

    ja99 Active Member

    Hi PommyPod,

    Well said..it is more often a term of affection than a pejorative!

    BTW My beloved Wife is from N.Ireland, even after all these years 'we' Aussies still can't distinguish between English/Irish/Scots/Welsh etc...perhaps the sporting ability is inversely related to matters cultural/intellectual ?? :drinks
     
  12. Cameron

    Cameron Well-Known Member

    netizens

    The provenance of words and phrases are never easy to tie down precisely and Pom is no exception. Another derivation is POHM or prisoner of her majesty. What is common to all is they are terms of derision but in Australia that might be less threatening that it first appears as a common trait is to subvert meaning and hence insult maybe a complement. An example of this would be the term 'bastard' meanin 'mate' (friend).

    I have just finished a series of broadcasts on the derivation of Australian English and posted it to the web.

    http://talkingaustralian.blogspot.com/

    Off to warch the Bill now

    toeslayer
     
  13. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Hi Julian, Mike and all the other Convicts.

    Well done! We let you win the semi final by a mere 9 wickets. Of course we had to take the one, just to show you that we could if we wanted to. You need to go off and practice proper cricket now, so that you stand a chance at the next Ashes.

    (Sorry to deviate the thread moderator).

    Pommie Bastard Bill
     
  14. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    Kevin

    Having just done a double take on reading a post that describes the casual use of the term "wog" Im gob-smacked!! Mods how about a Wiki link on the origins of that word? Why dont you ask the Espanol forum what a "dago" is??

    Terms that derogatively label people by the country of their origin are not appropriate anymore surely?
     
  15. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    We can do that!

    Wog

    Wog is a racial slur used to refer, in British English, to black and South Asian people, and, in Australian English, to people from the Mediterranean region[1] such as Southern Europeans. Whilst it is extremely derogatory in British English, in Australian English it may be considered non-offensive depending on how the word is used, due to reclamation and changing connotations.[1]

    In the United Kingdom, it has usually been employed against people of black and Desi origin or descent and maritime Southeast Asia and less typically to North Africans and those from the Middle East. It is generally considered similar to other racially abusive terms such as dago for Italians and sometimes Spaniards, spic for Spaniards or wop for Italians.

    In Australia, wog mostly refers to people from the Mediterranean region and to Australians from the Mediterranean region. This includes Southern European, Southeast European or Middle Eastern ethnicity, descent, and appearance. The slur became widely diffused in Australia with an increase in immigration from Southern Europe and the Levant after the Second World War, and the term expanded to include all immigrants from the Mediterranean region and the Middle East. These new arrivals were perceived by the majority population as contrasting with the larger predominant Anglo-Celtic Australian people. In contemporary times, the word has lost some of its negative connotations in Australia in certain contexts due to reappropriation by the intended targets of the slur, though this is still considered a point of controversy.[1]

    1. ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference Guard was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
     
  16. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

  17. carolethecatlover

    carolethecatlover Active Member

    I didn't know the term 'Yank' had a geographical connotation in the USA, I have, like most 'Brits' aka 'Poms', never used it in a derogatory manner, and I apologize unreservedly to all my American acquaintances who may have been offended by my unthinking use of this word.
     
  18. Lawrence:

    Since, during my 52 years here in the US, I had never heard the word "pom" being used, and I saw it being used regularly here on Podiatry Arena, I thought that Podiatry Arena would give me, and the rest of those following along, some very interesting views on the origins of the word....which it indeed has. I'm always seeking new knowledge.....whether you think it is appropriate or not that I do so on this forum.:drinks
     
  19. Carole:

    No worries. I never thought that the work "Yank" was derogatory. What I do find very interesting is how some people can be so easily offended within this "politically correct" society that is developing in many of our countries. Sometimes the PC stuff gets a bit overboard to the point where it becomes ridiculous.
     
  20. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    Kevin

    I dont take offense at you asking! No such thing as a stupid question.

    To be "PC" or not "PC" that is the question!
    Words can be used and meant "affectionately" or derogatively. "Pom" is one of those nicknames that falls into both camps and of course you can go over the top about this stuff - right now I would be classifed technically as a "whinging pom" :).

    However the perception of whether it is offensive rests with the one it is directed at not the one saying it. Hence it has become common practice to not use nicknames, particularly those that can have a derogative edge to them.

    Of course I cant be too sanctimonious as we British have invented many of the terms!

    My own philosophy is that its not PC just politeness.

    Im on my own here and I shouldnt have waded in - I'll get my coat. ;-)
     
  21. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    In any society if you are a member of the dominant group (so frequently males of european extraction) you are almost totally protected from the discriminatory or pejorative but you don't have to step too far out of your comfort zone to meet it.

    It is humour when the power balance is equal and discriminatory and pejorative when there is a power inequality, irrespective of the perceptions of those involved.

    Of course it's a real can of worms. Is there a relationship where the balance of power is equal?

    As a member, albeit in a limited sense, of the dominant group I think things have become too PC and that those who are not in my protected situation should stop being such sensitive little flowers. However I am not contemplating living in, say, an African state in the near future!

    Just another Jock.
     
  22. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    These things are very interesting and where individuals or groups are concerned, tend to run in circles. A consultant dermatologist has recently been taken to task, and his hospital forced to apologise because he noted that a patient was suffering from a complaint associated with 'negroid' skin. I hasten to add that he was a very senior member of staff, writing purely professionally and not given to insulting people on the grounds of skin colour. He was very firmly told that the expression was now insulting and that he should have written 'black' skin. In the view of many people the upset was uneccessary but perhaps the fact that the patient's mother was a local councilor and member of a committee which determined what constituted racial prejudice might be pertinent. As I say, this seems to be a circular argument because when I was young it was considered to be very bad manners to describe an individual as 'black'.

    I will be particularly interested on any comments from colleagues who are black, brown or any skin colour than white (whatever that might mean!)

    Pommy bastard Bill
     
  23. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

     
  24. My father was born in 1921 in South Carolina and was raised in the south. When he was growing up, in an era and community where segregation was normal, the African American (AA) people of the community were commonly referred to as "coloreds" or "colored people" by the whites. When I was very young, we were taught that AA people were "colored people". Then, by the mid 1960s, I was taught that AA people should now be called "negros". Then, during the 1970's, we were told that the term "negro" was insulting, and we should call AA people "blacks". Now, the more politically correct term is "African American" to describe those individuals in our great country of African descent.

    I am just finishing a very fine biography on Abraham Lincoln and I am so amazed at the struggles he, and the rest of our nation, went through in our growth from being a slave-holding country to a country where slavery was abolished. Lincoln knew the meaning of words and how they could influence people positively or negatively. Another fine biography I recently finished was on Winston Churchill, who, in my opinion, was able to use words more effectively to influence people for the benefit of his great country than anyone else within the last century.

    Words are very important and who and how those words are said can be very important to certain individuals. We must all be sensitive to how we use certain words around individuals and groups we speak to, but we must also not be so judgemental when an individual uses a word innocently, but means no harm. This is why I am very careful at reading and proofreading all my postings here on Podiatry Arena.....because you all only have words to go by to judge my meaning and my character.
     
  25. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Dear Mr wdd

    My sincere apologies, I had no wish to offer insult to you or any other individual by my inadvertent ageism. I can only assure you that I will do penance down at my local pub where I sometimes talk to a gentleman of 92, who is, of course, not old.

    I have seen pictures of Prof Kevin Kirby, and can only remark that like myself, he is 'relatively unaged'!

    A chastened Pomm...... English Gentleman William
     
  26. ja99

    ja99 Active Member

    Ouch, that's got to hurt!
    :drinks
     
  27. Fran Leathem

    Fran Leathem Welcome New Poster

    It's not a derogatory term, simply a way of addressing the nationality of English people. Originally it came from the initials on the prison garments worn by convicts "POME" which stood for Prisoner of Mother England.
    However, now it's sort of an affectionate way we describe our English forebears.
    We have quite a zany sense of humour in Australia.
    Fran from Sydney.
     
  28. Cameron

    Cameron Well-Known Member

    netizens

    Just finished giving a talk on the origins of Australian English and so the topic is fresh in my head. Not sure of Nan's provenance of POME and would be interested to find out the source.

    However I can say if you want to inflame true blue Aussies of a certain age then the mere mention of Winston Churchill will suffice. Historians and patriots do tend to hold himself responsible for the masacre at the Gallipoli landings. Irish Republicans are not too in amoured at him either as he was public enemy No 1. at the beginning of the 20th century and neither did he engage the UK population when he gave the order to arm the police at the Sydney Street riots in London. Unlike otherplaces, the UK police had never been armed before. The British Bull Dog did rally the country and Allies during the War but was voted out of No 10 post 1945. As a wordsmith he had no equal and I believe was so aware of his own destiny he skillfully negociated film right for his memoirs before his death.

    The good works of Abe Lincoln took another 100 years or so before Dr Martin Luther King could publically articulated the continual frustration faced daily by African Americans. He too was a superb orator. As an aside the biggest battle of the Civil War revolved around a shoe factory at Gettysberg. The brutality of the engagment is oft cited as the beginning of modern warfare.

    Yesterday was the anniversay of Tommie Smith's gloved fist at the 1968 Olympics. This still remains one of the most poinant images of the 20th century. All three men [Tommie Smith (US), John Carlos (US) and Peter Norman (Australian)] suffered as a consequence of a peaceful demonstration. Tommie and John came to the podium without gloves and as an act of solidarity Peter gave them his. Sometimes actions speak louder than words.

    Its the difference that binds us together.

    :drinks
    toeslayer
     
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