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I have question about difference between normal foot and hyperpronated. Where the border between this conditions? Donatelli defined "Excessive pronation means that the foot is pronating beyond 25% of the stance phase" http://www.jospt.org/members/getfile.asp?id=3800
but this is dynamic definition, and what about static, when human isn't walk? But other authors think that 67% of stance phase of normal gait last pronation. Where and what is true definition?
Thanks a lot for answers! :eek:
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Application of wedged foot orthosis effectively reduces pain in runners with pronated foot: a random
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Foot Orthoses and Peroneal latency or stretch reflex
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http://www.leeds.ac.uk/medicine/FASTER/z/pdf/FPI-manual-formatted-August-2005v2.pdf
As far as a single figure/value which delineates a 'normal' foot from another (can't bring myself to say hyperpro...) then there isn't one. -
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But if seriously...
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What about definition Donatelli? He was true? If "hyperpronation" is not good term, why it use in scientific literature?
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What modern references do You recommend about this problem? Because I feel lack of knowledge is this area.:sinking:
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I'd already got bagsies on macropronation and uberpronation. I never thought of heckofalotapronation.
http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=57866&highlight=uberpronation -
You may, or may not, find this of interest
http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=39128
Published last year or so. -
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Some people use pronated foot when they mean flat foot, so you could use arch height and ignore the the pronation part.
Why do you want to quantify pronation?
Eric -
From this data logically make conclusion that we need in precise definition this condition from point of view of EBM. The exist indications subtalar arthroereisis based more on subjective criteria such as pain, restriction in activities etc. Science love figures and precise definitions. -
Excessive pronation = pronation beyond the physiologic range.
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i.e. less 6 degrees in RCSP or 1/3 full ROM in NCSP?
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Any motion within the range of a given individual, be that 1 degree or 100 degrees, is just plain old pronation. Pronation: its a movement, not a pathology. There is no such thing as excessive pronation, nor hyper-pronation; it's just pronation. There is no delineation between good pronation and bad pronation or normal pronation and excessive pronation, there is just pronation. Get over it, it's called pronation. -
Maybe I am very drop behind from modern biomechanics:confused: -
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And article wrote in 2010? Maybe You recommend for me some modern references because I get confused?
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:good::D:D What about evidence-based medicine? That all your evidence? It is not scientific discussion((( I can say that urine is the best method to treatment flexible flatfoot))) Reference: gendel99 2011
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Gendel, there is no evidence that the subtalar joint pronating beyond a certain degree, or at a certain velocity is injurious. Frankly, the concepts you are attempting to explore here are, at best, naive and outmoded. I can provide a reasoned and deductive approach to the statements I have made here and if I could be bothered I could also provide you with lots of references which support my conjectures. Can you?
You might want to re-read the posts in this thread, what do you think every respondent is trying to tell you? Get over it.
Basically, this is a subject which is very old hat, and to be honest I couldn't really care less about because I stopped thinking in these terms about 15 years ago. There is pretty much a whole chapter on the lack of substantive evidence linking pronation with injury in Nigg's book: http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=59171 complete with lots and lots of references- knock yourself out. -
:cool:
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What investigations is prove this? For examle Graham maybe have another point of view... http://www.touchmusculoskeletal.com/...s/graham_0.pdf
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In my country accepted that eversion of calcaneus is more than 6 degrees is pathologic. But I don't sure that it true...
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Please tell me you are not using subtalar arthroesis in anyone with more than 6 degrees eversion of the calcaneus in an attempt to treat temporo-mandibular joint dysfunction.
I got your private message about access to literature in your country, I'll see what I can do. Just stop doing STJ arthroesis on people just because they've got a calcaneus which is everted by more than 6 degrees, please!
Kevin, can you and I do a deal to get copies of your books to this gentleman in Belarus, they might just start a revolution there? -
If people followed these instructions, we'd all be safe. Man got stabbed at the end of my street last night. Last shuttle hit the ground last week....
Peace, y'all. XXX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6kZM81ghOc&feature=related -
In my country subtalar arthroereisis isn't performed, because one implant is very expensive for patient. We are perform operative treatment when conservative treatment fails (stretching, orthoses), often we do Evans-Mosca operation (lateral calcaneal lengthening) or calcaneal-stop method. Indiacation such a eversion more 6 degrees we don't take as rule (don't worry:D). Simply it's count that eversion more than 6 degrees is pathologic and it need for treatment, though I don't prescribe any treatment, if symtomps is absent. Basic indications: severe deformity that don't cure by conservative methods in during 1 year with symptoms as the pain, fatigue etc., presents of ligamenthous laxity, (I talk about flexible flatfoot). I am try to follow up of modern information about children foot pathology, pediatric orthopedics, but we very lack in knowledge modern biomechanics.
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Hey Gendel. I have to love your enthusiasm. :drinks
You said
Firstly, one remember the scientific method. The burden of evidence is not to show that a proposition is NOT true, but rather that it IS. So the proof required is to show that more than 6 degrees, (or 5, or 7, or 17) is pathological. None such exists.
However if you wanted proof that the 6 degree "rule" is untrue, here it is.
This is the best distance runner, possibly of all time. There is a LOT more than 6 degrees of pronation there. Can we accurately describe this as pathological? Not by any standard definition, If running that far, that fast is a disease then its one I'd love to contract. Should we "treat" him, to change his gait? Perform surgery on him? No.
Thus, how can we determine pronation as pathological based on degree?Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016 -
I agree with You Robert. I am prescribe treatment option only when symptoms exist. But... in foot surgical literature that I read, pay a great attention in correction hyperpronation of STJ in children with flexible flatfoot. Especially if deformity more expressed in coronal plane (i.e. calcaneal eversion more ??? degrees) prefer method is arthroereisis or calcaneal-stop method in accordance with Green's planal dominance.
Question - how many degrees of eversion I must leave post op? On how many degrees I must correct this pathological condition? It's to avoid hyper- or undercorrection. -
Eric -
Eric -
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<
Application of wedged foot orthosis effectively reduces pain in runners with pronated foot: a random
|
Foot Orthoses and Peroneal latency or stretch reflex
>
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