I have been asked by a local sports magazine in western Canada called Impact Magazine to debate barefoot vs shod. I've been asked to take the shod side. The editor would like five major points to contest and we each get 500 words total. I realize there are many points of contention on this debate but I need to suggest five major titles. Any thoughts? Note: the readers are sports enthusiasts not biomechanists.
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My major difficulty at the moment is that Vibram 5-fingers, Asics Nimbus and volleyball shoes all mean shod - Yikes! Perhaps this is point number one.
Finally, any thoughts on how significant the difference would be between a thin slip of Vibram rubber and a "traditional" runner (say 20-24mm of cushion under the heel), and a slip of Vibram rubber and actual barefoot?
Regards,
Lee
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Foot strike patterns and ground contact times during high-calibre middle-distance races
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Asymptomatic Ligament Laxity 11 year old
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5 points on the Shod side...
How about:-Glass, sharp stones, blunt stones, dog****, and unexpected hedgehogs.-
Funny x 1 - List
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How about:
1. There is nothing wrong with running barefoot
2. There is nothing wrong with running shoes
3. Evangelists from the Church lie about the research
4. Different running forms load different tissues differently; there is no one right way to run for everyone
5. Podiatrists and those that work in running injury clinics are making more money since this trend started. -
Points to consider for rebuttle
- what is "natural" motion?; there is no "correct" way to run
- evolution: the slow runners were eaten/average age much lower/average weight much lower(less impact force's)
- Investigate what elite marathon runners/athletes wear
- 80% of runners get injured anyway. -
1. ... but the modern man is misadapted and need to be careful when he/she want to run barefoot again
2. ... but the modern running shoes change a lot our biomechanics (since 40 years) ... after 2 000 000 years of evolution with the relative 'same protective biomechanics'
3. ... that what's happen when philosophy go against science... (both sides)
4. ... But there is a wrong way ;)
5. ... especially in the areas where we find more professionals that are against the trend... the best thing is to educate and oriented people to move properly in the trends... I'm guessing, but I think that the prevalence of injuries for runners in the area of Quebec decrease since the begging of the minimalist movement, 10 years ago!
6. ... Because this trend : The industry change, health professional (especially podiatrist) change and consumers are more critic and have more choice-option. -
Thank you simon for that Tenbroek dissertation.
Would anyone hazard a guess at the two most prevalent injuries found with the minimalist trend? I would choose 2nd met stress fracture and achilles tendonopthy. I have a couple references to back that up but they don't leave me very confident. Any thoughts?
Blaise, what is a modern running shoe?
Also, the injury trends are likely the same, and has little to do with their shoes. If you make a runner feel better they just run farther and still hurt themselves.
I think that studying elite runners only offers a small piece of the puzzle. They move way faster than a 4-5hr marathoner. My elite running buddies run significantly different when they they go my pace as compared to their racing pace. That includes their cadence and stride length, which is basic math. Finally, I feel the need to bring up Bikila's two world records, one barefoot and one shod.
As for evolution, it's always interesting to see how confident people are with the way the human evolved. Though the multitude of different camps on the subject is fascinating. My thoughts, nothing human's hate more than another human, and this continent isn't big enough for the two of us..... -
We have a mathematical formula to quantify the shoes with a rate from 0 (barefoot) to 100 (Hoka).
For the moment, grossly
I call a shoes minimalist if :
stack < 15mm
drop < 5mm
weight < 7oz
I call a shoes maximalist if :
stack > 20mm
drop > 7mm
weight > 9oz
- higher if you change with not enough progressively (both side)
- lower on your foot on short term with maximalist
- lower on your knee on short term with minimalist
- lower on long term with minimalist
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P.S.
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what the good term in english 'interference'? 'ramp'?
In french we call this épaisseur and pente
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I don't know because I don't know what you mean when you write "stack" and "drop"; that's my point. épaisseur translates into English as thickness; thickness of what? Pente translates as slope; again, slope of what?
You may be talking about the heel height and pitch of the waste section of the last (heel pitch is something different again)? But you probably need to include a measure of the sole thickness too. The term coined by Kirby as "heel-height differential" may be the best to use here. But what about the "toe-spring"? What influence might that have?
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- Slope or ramp or drop or heel to toe height differential... is the differential between the height of the heel and the forefoot.
To give you an example, barefoot is 0 drop and 0stack :)
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More common in minimalist runners/forefoot strikers: met stress fractures, dorsal midfoot interosseous compression syndrome, post tib tendonitis and post tib dysfunction, achilles tendinitis
More common in rearfoot strikers: tibial stress fractures, anterior compartment syndrome, peroneal tendinitis
No clear pattern (both forefoot and rearfoot strikers get these): plantar fasciitis, patellofemoral pain syndrome, iliotibial band syndrome (also changing from heel striking to forefoot striking for these conditions does help some, but not others. There are still plenty of minimalist/barefoot and forefoot strikers seeking help for these problems that developed after they made the transition).
You will always read about individual exceptions to these, but this is the impression that I get to the pattern. -
I don't believe that you can support the four points you made previously with either direct or indirect evidence. Can you?
Here's a question though, Blaise: What's in it for you? What is your motivation to promote minimalist or even barefoot running? Are you honestly acting as an ethical practitioner in your mind, using the best currently available knowledge to treat the injuries within your patients, or are you more interested in selling courses and trying to make a name for yourself along the way? This is really a rhetoric set of questions, more for you to reflect upon than to provide an answer to me. -
I have another question on ground reaction force data. Are vertical GRF's usually calculated as ground force on shoe, as compared to insole/orthotic reaction force on foot. It seems logical that the forces between the ground and shoe, especially during impact, would be different than that of the insole on the foot.
I once dropped an egg off my elementary school roof in a box full of cotton balls and it didn't break - Have to think the reaction force was different for the box and for the egg.
Finally, would the inertia of the shoe contribute to impact force magnitude or timing, assuming we are looking at ground to shoe reaction force? -
I have another question on ground reaction force data. Are vertical GRF's usually calculated as ground force on shoe, as compared to insole/orthotic reaction force on foot. It seems logical that the forces between the ground and shoe, especially during impact, would be different than that of the insole on the foot.
I once dropped an egg off my elementary school roof in a box full of cotton balls and it didn't break - Have to think the reaction force was different for the box and for the egg.
Finally, would the inertia of the shoe contribute to impact force magnitude or timing, assuming we are looking at ground to shoe reaction force? -
To my experience I would add and precise :
More common in minimalist runners/forefoot strikers: met stress fractures, dorsal midfoot interosseous compression syndrome, post tib tendonitis and post tib dysfunction, achilles tendinitis, calf and deep post leg compartment syndrom, metatarsalgia, peroneal tendinitis, plantar fasciatis
More common in maximalist rearfoot strikers: tibial stress fractures, anterior compartment syndrome, peroneal tendinitis (?), ATSS and stress fracture anterior crest, heel fat pad synd,
No clear pattern (but more minimalist runners/forefoot strikers tendency): MTSS and stress fracture to the medial tibial crest, PFPS
No clear pattern (but more maximalist rearfoot strikers tendency): most of knee pathologies (ex: tibio-femoral OA), iliotibial band syndrome, most of the coxo-femoral pathologies, lower back pathologies. -
If I reassure you and you are still interested to understand what I teach you can read some testimonial here : http://www.therunningclinic.ca/en/courses-conferences/testimonials.php
An add on Podiatry arena is a very good idea... Craig how can I proceed? -
What the data does tell us is the load/deformation of each tissue may be different in different tissues when wearing different kinds of shoes. This is not the same, nor supportive of your contentions above. -
Further,
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Would the reaction force between the ground and the shoe be the same as the reaction force between the insole and the foot for any given moment in time on any given step?
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Attached Files:
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Thank you for this one as well Simon. It seems one point the barefoot supporters like is the impact force difference. Are they they cutting down data that doesn't exist though? By that I mean, regardless of strike pattern, they are comparing values of barefoot impact on the ground/force plate with shoe impact values on the ground/force plate. How confident can we be that the values the foot experiences inside the shoe are the same as the outsole experiences?
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I love too your 'pulled out of your ass' and can be just agree with that.
Ok, last explanations:
We know that less your have shoes, more your increase your impact moderating behaviour by some biomechanics adaptation... (I'm sure you know all of this). ex : Running barefoot (the extreme of the spectre) increase the load of the plantar flexor because you run more (or have a tendency of) on your forefoot.
- higher if you change with not enough progressively (both side)
Transition to one to the other (maximalist-minimalist) increase the load of some specific tissues... Why someone moving to minimalism have more certain type of injuries and why someone moving from minimalism to maximalism (we have that type of people at Quebec in our study - assign in the maximalist group, but use to run in minimalist shoes- have other type of problem. (see the quote of Craig)
Q : Do you think that moving to a minimalist shoe from a maximalist shoe have no risk to develop the type of injuries Craig named, like a MT stress fracture?
- lower on your foot on short term with maximalist
If you take someone starting a running program and you protect is feet... I guess that he will be less injured (short term only) at the protected part of his body.
Q : Do you think that maximalist shoes doesn't decrease the stress on the foot -generally-?
- lower on your knee on short term with minimalist
Same thing for the knee... and you will decrease the EKAM movement with less interference in most of the case.
Q : Do you think that traditional shoes doesn't increase EKAM?
- lower on long term with minimalist
I believe that for many reason (alignment, cadence, adaptation of tissues, ...) but one of the argument is that when you change your maximalist or minimalist shoe after 4-6 months, you will have more chance to have a biomechanical change with the maximalist than the minimalist shoes... nothing is closer to nothing than 12 technologies compare with 12 news technologies.
Q : Do you think that maximalist shoes lowering the risk of injuries on long term? -
If you are going to use abbreviations/ acronyms it would be helpful to define them in full at the point of their first usage. -
From my 15 years of experience treating almost exclusively runners; dealing since more than 10 years with minimalist and maximalist stunning shoes; being a runner since 32 years; working wing the national team; being in contact with hundreds of health professionals and tens of researchers groups around the word; understanding where the force/load differences are between forefoot v rear foot (and the influence of the shoes on that); observing in forums/social media runners having trouble with injuries... ...
I think I'm right! ... but who knows... maybe the other Simon?:D
What do you think of my questions? (you can just answered yes or no... even with no evidence)
Do you think that moving to a minimalist shoe from a maximalist shoe have no risk to develop the type of injuries Craig named, like a MT stress fracture?
Do you think that maximalist shoes doesn't decrease the stress on the foot -generally-?
Do you think that traditional shoes doesn't increase EKAM?
Do you think that maximalist shoes lowering the risk of injuries on long term? -
Alternatively, you could wind your neck in, admit that actually you cannot support the contentions you made through either direct or indirect published evidence and apologise for wasting my time. I won't hold my breath though. Next... -
Mechanical analysis of the landing phase in heel-toe running.
Bobbert MF, Yeadon MR, Nigg BM.
J Biomech. 1992 Mar;25(3):223-34
In looking up the above paper, which influenced me greatly, I saw other papers by the same authors on the use of accelerometry and inverse dynamics that could be used to look at groundreaction force.
One question is why do you want to look at vertical ground reaction force.
The difference between your example of the egg, cotton, and carton versus the shoe and the foot is that there is a lot more internal motion with the egg. Specifically the egg does not stop the instant the carton hits the ground. Whearas the distance the foot travels relative to the outer sole of the shoe is relatively less than the egg in the carton. The concept you are examining here is impulse. Impulse is force x time and is what happens when the ground changes the momentum of a falling object. You can create the same impulse with a low force times a long time as compared to a high force for a short time. The cotton and the compression of the material of the shoe give some more distance and time over which the force can be applied to slow the downward momentum.
The interesting thing about the study I cited above was that it showed the the ground reaction force impact peak was related to the impact of the shank and foot and that knee flexion was very important in reducing the magnitude of ground reaction force. So, just as there is some internal movement in the egg carton there is "internal" movement of the whole body to reduce impacts. However, material under the heel of the foot can reduce the peak loads from the shank impact.
Eric -
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"Here's what I think"
"I think you're wrong, show me the evidence"
"I'm right"
"No, show me the evidence to support your position"
"I'm right, why do think I'm wrong?"
"Because you can't evidence what you've said"
"What do you think?"
"I think you haven't evidenced what you've said yet"
"But you can't tell me why you think I'm wrong?"
"I think you are wrong because I'm familiar with the evidence base, I have a sound understanding of lower limb biomechanics and research methods and I know there is no evidence which supports your contentions... go ahead show me some evidence..."
Bored now Blaise, either evidence your contentions or wind your neck in. -
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What's a maximalist shoe?
A shoe can be made/modified to reduce stress on a particular anatomical structure. This modification will probably increase stress on some other structure.
What's EKAM?
Folks are more likely to answer your questions if the question can be clearly defined.
Eric -
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Eric
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Foot strike patterns and ground contact times during high-calibre middle-distance races
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Asymptomatic Ligament Laxity 11 year old
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