Hi Folks broke off the posts from Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery? for you, Mike
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Here's hoping your research position has a good set of parameters.
In my experience the number of variables are very high and there are very few instances where it is easy to directly compare cases due to the unique nature of most of our lives.
Surgery addresses obvious gross mis-alignments but does nothing to address the underlying musculo-skeletal issues that are there with chronic conditions.
Macro dynamic biomechanics looks at how movement occurs through out the body and hinges on the patient taking responsibility gor their body.
Simply taking a cast of the foot and creating an orthotic captures a point in time but does nothing to resolve the timing issues that a present.
Good luck with your research
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Re: Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery?
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Re: Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery?
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Re: Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery?
Macro is about looking at the body as a whole as against micro which is looking at ankle and foot with an array of labels which been created to cover various joint alignments.
Dynamic is focusing on time and change. It is about asisting a patient in developing their awareness of how their body moves.
Hence a meeting of the minds working with how a patient moves. -
Re: Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery?
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Re: Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery?
Secondly, a foot orthosis can modify the position of the subtalar joint (STJ) at heel strike and thus modify the position of the foot/heel at heel strike during walking. I have observed this many times and first observed it 27 years ago during slow motion video analysis of a patient during my Biomechanics Fellowship. This ability of the foot orthosis to reposition the STJ at heel contact is likely due to the foot orthosis allowing the STJ to assume a less pronated position during propulsion so that, during swing phase, the anterior tibial muscle is now a supinator of the STJ rather than a pronator.
By the way, Tensegrity, please explain how Buckminster Fuller's concept of "tensegrity" applies to the human locomtor apparatus. -
Re: Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery?
I agree with Simon - the discussion that will inevitably ensue now regarding your nonsensical comments on heel strike are worthy of their own thread. Mike? -
Re: Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery?
Rather than define an incorrect heel strike. Let's turn it on it's head and define a correct heel strike.
This is a heel strike which is square to ground in the frontal plane and approxiamately a quarter of an inch in on the heel. -
Re: Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery?
Since you spoke of an incorrect heel strike, I'd really like you to define it. But given your definition of a correct heel strike, I'll take it to mean anything that doesn't hit that strict criteria. So, your evidence for this "correct heel strike" consists of......?
Like Kevin, these days I'm becoming more annoyed with the concept of anonymous posting. I should really like to know your name and background experience before I bother to contribute any more. -
Re: Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery?
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I thought most people were beyond correct and incorrect ......well....anything.
Surely this is not worth discussion. Packaging inaccurate generalisations about biomechanical theory as somehow being more holistic. It's been done to death hasn't it? -
Re: Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery?
Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016 -
http://www.stepintime.org.uk/stepintime_consultations.html
At least he's joined in with the planking phenomena -
Please let me know the easy way to change the name Tensegrity in the posting.
I just happen to like the word because it is all about the balance between tension and compression. It is what i spend my days dealing with in order to resolve what ever the presenting condition is.There was no intension to be mysterous.
As to heel strike , well the style of the foot wear is just one of many variables that have to be allowed for when working out how to create what is appropriate for an individual. The height and type of heel on footwear is just another factor.
To me working out the differences is what it is all about. The goal is same for all - no pain and ideally no need to wear an orthotic.
There is no better feeling than that of knowing a person walked in to my clinic in pain and on leaving I am told there is comfort when walking and sitting.
It is quite priceless knowing I have been able to help someone have a better quality of life.
Kevin Bromley -
Welcome.:welcome:
Just so long as I don't have to call you "Tensegrity" all the time, then we should be fine. I rather like your real first name.:rolleyes:
There was another "Kevin" who was also a big fan of tensegrity from a few years ago here on Podiatry Arena. The other Kevin promised us all oodles of research that he was going to publish. Unfortunately, we haven't heard from the other "Tensegrity Kevin" (I forget his last name) in a few years or seen any of his promised research that he constantly reminded us of....maybe he got lost in a cybercloud? -
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Re: Podiatry’s Future: Biomechanics Versus Surgery Or Biomechanics With Surgery?
There is certainly an optimum heelstrike, depending on the individual foot/leg geometry, physiological health, weight, and the type of supporting surface.
But what may be optimum for an 80 year-old walking on pavements may not be optimum for a healthy 25 year-old walking on grass, or a 40 year-old who is very overweight and has uncompensated equinus (or pes cavus, if you prefer). -
Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
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and what. ;) -
I've been thinking about macro biomechanics. I think there is a better name for it.
I personally like to call it "treating patients" -
Check my edit Mike ;).
The point being meant for Kevin. Simply to state what is "correct" is worthless unless one can justify ones answer. 2.5 degrees (the .5 was a clue that i was being facetious )is an absurd concept for "correct" heel strike, as is zero degrees. -
Kevin Miller was the other Tensegrity-Lover.
Here are some posts from JISC-mailbase.
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A1=ind0705&L=PODIATRY#21
Wonder if this is the same guy?
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090183390 -
Wasn't there some kind of top secret evidence which he'd read but could not reveal for legal reasons? Which he said would make all of us look really stupid when it was released?
Still waiting on that then. -
Here is the tensegrity thread from three years ago where Kevin Miller participated.
Biotensegrity and Mechanical Analysis
I wonder when all that top-secret tensegrity research will ever reach us lesser mortals?:rolleyes: -
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I'm not sure that Kevin Bromley is the same person as Kevin Miller. I had a brief email conversation with Kevin Miller and he indicated that he held an MS degree, was an ATC and a C.Ped. He also claimed he had completed all but two quarters of the chiropractic curriculum and that he planned to finish that degree. This was June of 2009.
Here is the link to the website he referenced in his email:
http://tensegritytech.com/ -
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Simon thank you for the correction, I read Kevin's post incorrectly. Kevin Miller is apparently the same poster mentioned in the tensegrity threads that is also involved with Tensegrity Technologies LLC.
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I looked at the web site for Tensegrity Technologies LLC. There is just a brief description of it's purpose, the date it was founded and an e-mail address.
I have also looked at Craig Payne's posting on bare foot running and the responses to it. Clearly there is a group of you who know each other well.
I would like to know your views on something very basic which is :' the way our legs and feet are formed, our knees and feet should point in the direction we are moving.
Kevin B -
This implies there is only one position for the feet and knees. There's not, there's a range.
IF the foot was pointed in the direction of travel, the knee will cease to point in the direction of travel as soon as the foot starts to pronate (because the leg will internally rotate).
In fact, if you allow for movement at the sub talar joint (which you have to) then its impossible for the feet and the knees to be pointed in the same direction for more than an instant, The leg rotates on the foot, the foot seldom rotates on the ground once fully weight bearing.
The question contains a catagory error. One cannot think of gait in terms of a single direction or position, its all ranges.
The only way I can think to make the knees and feet point in the direction of travel throughout the gait cycle would be to fuse the sub talar joint (to prevent rotation of the leg on the foot), fuse the hip so it only works in the saggital plane, ensure the foot was aligned with the knee, prevent the pelvis from moving in the transverse plane (to ensure the body did not pivot on the supporting leg) and somehow force the feet to always land facing forward.
Is this your justification for the heel striking square being "correct" by the way? -
Robert,
Thank you for response.
I agree there are huge variations in joint alignment and it is working out what is going on that I find so stimulating. To me it is like being a dectective and it is piecing it all together that is the challenge.
In some ways it seems to boil down to timing as our body's manage change.
In a sense, much of what we do revolves around habits and habits are the product of what we have done before. I believe alot of the conditions we treat are result of the body compensating for a wide variety misalignments and imbalances arising from what we do with our body.
So there has to be a point during the gait cycle when the knee and the foot points in the direction the body is moving in and when that does not happen eventually a problem arises. Pain progressively getting worse if the underlying issue is not addressed.
Thank you again for taking the time to reply.
KevinB -
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Simon,
I am not quite sure how to respond to your comment.
The reason I put that point forward was because that has to being happening otherwise none of us would ever get to where we are going.
A good example of when this is not the case, is when a traffic policeman stops a driver who has drunk too much alcohol and is therefore unable to walk a straight line when unfortunately asked to do so.
I believe a lot hinges on our knowledge of ourselves.
KevinB -
The thing about people like you Kevin, who appear to make it up as they go along, is that often they make it up as they go along and under the slightest scientific scrutiny their arguments and hypotheses crumble. It's one thing convincing the lay public, lets see if you can convince me or any of our peers. So, defend you contention...
In the meantime, here is something better to read, Arthur Kuo talking about walking models: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~artkuo/Papers/HMS07.pdf
Here's the rest of his work: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~artkuo/Papers/ -
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Eric -
is the best distance runner in the world, and he runs with his feet quite substantially abducted.
So clearly most of us do NOT walk with our feet pointing the direction we are traveling.
And even if we were, as I stated before the only way to line the knees up to the foot would be to prevent the leg internally rotating, viz, to prevent the foot pronating.
But lets say we accept what you say, assuming you're accepting that we can't prevent pronation and that if the foot pronates the knee and foot rotate relative to each other, at what point during gait would you suggest that they SHOULD come into line in the saggital plane?Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016 -
May I chime in regarding what is "proper heel strike"?...First off I fully agree that we can assume a "range" where this is concerned and pigeonholing this position to within a few degrees or parts of an inch or millimeter will only confuse you more. Step back and look at the big picture. People come in all shapes and sizes and most of the ones I deal with would NOT be considered your "textbook" "normals" and moreover what is "normal"? ...for me it is a range again.
But for me an optimum heelstrike achieved by that person I am looking at will be one that allows for continuation of weight acceptance on that foot with stability. Again for each person this will be slightly different depending on the position of that load over the subtalar. Measuring that position in all thee planes is nice and makes for a more well rounded informational exchange within my chart but really does not matter much to the person who is walking because there is a wide range of postions both retroverted and anteverted in hip transverse plane position, tibial angle, subtalar position and foot morphology that would give "optimum heelstrike".
It is not wise in my opinion to attempt to get all people into one measured position to satisfy a parameter.
My 2cents
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