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Damning report on homeopathy

Discussion in 'General Issues and Discussion Forum' started by Craig Payne, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. perrypod

    perrypod Active Member

    Or perhaps they can see things that other people can't? There are many ways of seeing things, not just with the eyes but through conciousness and the boundless power of the imagination. In the context of health and social issues, consider the placebo effects such as the Newcastle University Study 1970. All the patients received the same dose of oxazepam. The patients were split into three groups. The pills given to each group were dyed different colours - red, yellow or green. Each of the patients took a different coloured pill each week. The doctors did not know which patients were receiving which colour of the same medication at any given time. This showed statistical significance in regard to phobic symptoms. Green tablets were twice as good as red or yellow at reducing phobic symptoms - even though the same dose and drug was administered to all participants. The nocebo effect is also, in part at least, governed by perception and the imagination. It is interesting to consider the nocebo effects found in anthropological studies into the hex of "voodoo death" - see the work of Levi-Strauss (1967) the French anthropologist, for just one of several researches performed in this interesting area. In podiatry giving a simple single injection can produce noticeably high levels of anxiety in some, whereas it is seen as a stroll in the park by others. Finally, consider the effectiveness in some cases of clinical hypnosis. It has often been used successfully as the sole form of anaesthesia in many invasive techniques. Belief and perception are powerful and driven by numerous factors such as personality and cultural differences and can never be ignored in any interpersonal relationship. So if someone says that there are fairies at the bottom of their garden, the very last thing that I would consider doing is is to contradict them, after all they may be the only friends that they have!
     
  2. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    I don't think that anybody, certainly myself, commenting in this - and related - threads have ever denied the effects of placebo or nocebo. Certainly hypnotism demonstrates the probability of endorphin and encephalin production to a high degree. There are many scientific studies engaged in such research. However, homeopaths claim that their brand of charlatanism is marked by the 'memory' of perfectly ordinary water which has come into contact with another substance and then been diluted to such an extent that not a single molecule of that substance remains. They then charge the gullible a great deal of money for selling the water. This is unethical, deplorable and worse if they are aware that the mechanism of resolution is time and the placebo effect. However, it becomes criminal when they claim to cure such diseases and afflictions as neoplasms and AIDS using water.

    I fear that I am wasting time in posting on this subject since I thought that this was largely a scientific site. I don't believe in fairies and cannot spend time discussing charlatanism with those that do.

    Bill Liggins
     
  3. perrypod

    perrypod Active Member

    Bill,

    What are your thoughts on veterinary homeopathy and studies carried out by veterinary surgeons in this area? Please feel free to cite any studies that you have read recently.

    Colin.
     
  4. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Homeopaths claim that their brand of charlatanism is marked by the 'memory' of perfectly ordinary water which has come into contact with another substance and then been diluted to such an extent that not a single molecule of that substance remains. They then charge the gullible a great deal of money for selling the water. This is unethical and deplorable.
     
  5. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    The NHMRC are a government agency. They do good work (generally).

    Indeed.
    The water memory stuff is total BS ... and even if it wasn't, then water must remember other things that were also in it ... like the poop we flush down the toilet.
     
  6. perrypod

    perrypod Active Member

    Bill,

    Thank you for your considered reply, but unfortunately the question regarding veterinary science that was postulated in my last post has not been adequately addressed. The question was clearly about conclusions that could be drawn from veterinary evidence based analysis in this specific area, rather than considering the basic philosophy of how homeopathy works or does not work. As you well know, there are many other suggested theories put forward to explain how and if homeopathy works, other than 'memory of water theory'. There are also conflicting theories in other areas of scientific enquiry such as explaining the universal functioning of the force of gravity and if it can be considered a 'force' as such, but enquiry into this subject is for some reason far less controversial? Am I right in thinking, that you have little interest in investigating veterinary homeopathy because you have a general dislike to conduct any research in this area? Is this just personal prejudice against investigating the unproven and controversial subject of homeopathy generally, or are you open to all enquiry whether it has definitive proof to substantiate it as yet or not? Outside the enquiry in this post, we can probably both acknowledge that water is mysterious stuff. For instance out of all the millions of snow flakes that have existed on this planet, most of them have been found to be completely unique in structure and there is no complete consensus as to why these variations exist in the forms that they do. To conclude may I ask this question: "Do those that administrate this arena have prejudice against certain areas of enquiry, or do they keep an open philosophical mind in all instances"? If it has already been decided that homeopathy is a charlatan quackery by the powers that be inside this arena, then there is little room or place for further discussion and we can therefore conclude that you are all right and any one thinking differently is automatically wrong!

    Keeping an open mind and an open heart

    Best wishes


    Colin
     
  7. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    From Craig:
    The water memory stuff is total BS ... and even if it wasn't, then water must remember other things that were also in it ... like the poop we flush down the toilet.

    From Colin:
    there is little room or place for further discussion

    Then we are agreed.

    Bill Liggins
     
  8. Lab Guy

    Lab Guy Well-Known Member

    I guess Holy water would also be BS.

    Steven
     
  9. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    The point being that in homeopathy it's not holy water but wholly water!

    Bill Liggins
     
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    THE RESULTS ARE IN – HOMEOPATHY IS WATER, OVERPRICED WATER
     
  11. Ben Lovett

    Ben Lovett Member

    I just had a patient in today who told me she'd been advised to take silica for her heel pain. This being a new one on me I replied " Sand?". Anyway it turns out that this is "homeopathic silica", so that would be sand with no sand in it then.

    After a quick google I discovered that homeopathic silica is "nature scalpel" and brings about the reabsorption of bone spurs - fantastic.

    This being heel pain and she having had it for about 6 months it was starting to get better of course, easy life. She did mention it was very expensive but given it's formidable powers I guess that's ok.

    Ben
     
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    Homeopathy and the UK’s National Health Service
     
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  19. fishpod

    fishpod Well-Known Member

    homeopathy is pure bull**** debating its worth is futile we might as well debate being a jehovas witness cos you know if you have ablood transfusion you will die its written down so it must be true. alternativley there is always the psychic surgeon if all else fails no need to worry about cross infection he cuts you with a psychic scalpel.
     
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    The Worst Homeopathy Study. Ever
     
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    Why homeopathy must not gain a foothold in the UK
     
  26. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    In fairness, the overwhelming number of the political establishment do not support homeopathy. I have no in-depth knowledge of the Royal Family but would be willing to wager that the majority are treated by orthodox medicine. The Queen certainly has dedicated physicians/surgeons even if she does occasionally (and mistakenly in MHO) engage a quack. Prince Charles is well known for his 'left of field' views in many areas.

    Bill Liggins
     
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  30. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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  31. quirkyfoot

    quirkyfoot Active Member

    Craig, I'm quite hopeful that all this will be put to rest soon. I'm amazed that some people still put their faith ( and hard earned cash!) in the hands of homeopaths...
     
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  33. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    That one sentence sums it up. Homeopathy manages some aspects of the psychological component of conditions through its, not unimportant, placebo effect. Other than that it doesn't work.

    Medicine also manages the same psychological component through its placebo effect while curing and/or controlling symptoms.

    It might be possible to argue that your placebo effect is bigger than mine and there is no doubt that this is an area where size does matter but I think that when the placebo effect is backed up by genuine cure and/or control of symptoms it is likely to enhance the placebo effect.

    The qoute above, to be accurate; would have to be rewritten as:

    ........It is totally dissimilar as homeopathy doesn't work.

    Bill
     
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    Homeopathy 'could be blacklisted'
     
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