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Homeopathy and Sports Injury

Discussion in 'Break Room' started by Craig Payne, Jun 15, 2012.

  1. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator


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    I enjoy following stories in the media and on blogs when there is a he said/she said type discussion on the use of science (eg the thread on Abandon cervical spine manipulation for mechanical neck pain? and of course, all the barefoot stuff).

    Not a day goes by when something does not come up as fodder .... todays one from the Society of Homeopaths who put out a press release to jump on the London 2012 bandwagon:
    Full release.

    It did not take long for the blogosphere to start ridiculing the Society of Homeopaths. The best mocking of the press release is from Quackometer:
    Full analysis
  2. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Further analysis of Homeopathy Awareness week from Skeptic Barista
    Skeptic Barista goes on to look at the code of ethics from both the Society of Homeopaths (SoH) and the Alliance of Registered Homeopaths (ARH) ... then points out how many homeopathy websites don't comply with the Code !!!!
  3. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

  4. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

  5. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Thanks David, that was a hoot! ... especially the exchanges that went on in the comments. One of the commenter's was clearly living on another planet or something ... then I see that he is featured on a website
    called Encyclopedia of American Loons! :
  6. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    "The Society of Homeopaths are misleading the public by making these claims that homeopathy can help with sport injuries. It cannot. Homeopathy is just sugar pills and a nice chat."

    My aged mother has taken great exception to the above statement.

    As someone whose life was centred around boiled sweets (or "sugar pills" as they are disparagingly termed) and a nice chat and who, more importantly, never had a sports injury in her life, she sees this denial of the preventative power of "sugar pills" and a nice chat as blatant dishonesty.

    On a positive note she did add that the prescription was likely to have considerably more preventative power if the sugar pills and nice chat were supplimented with a nice cup of tea but my mother's tea would hardly qualify as homeopathy.

  7. musmed

    musmed Active Member

    Dear Bill
    how can you say that about your mother's tea!
    are you a homeopath? if not shame on you. I thought only homeopaths can say homeopath things!
    Regards a happy quack
    Paul conneely
    night time here
  8. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    It true that for many the difference between my mother's tea and homeopathy is too subtle to grasp but it goes a bit like this.

    The prescription for a pot of my mother's tea is as follows: one spoonful of tea for each cup of tea plus one more for the pot, ie if she is making six cups of tea she puts in seven spoonsful of tea in the pot.

    The prescription for a pot of homeopathic tea is as follows: no spoonsful of tea for each cup of tea plus none for the pot, ie if the homopath is making six cups of tea they add no spoonsful of tea to the pot.

    For some the difference is blatant but for others it is just too subtle a difference to grasp. However even those with homeopathic tendancies get a feeling of being robbed when other things are shared out using the formula one for me none for you. Their blindness breaks down completely when in return for the homeopathic remedy you hand over some homeopathic money but now I'm getting silly.

  9. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    The Encyclopedia of American Loons is classic stuff Craig, I am devoting my free time to making their list!

    As for "homeopathic tendencies", I never noticed any during my adolescence or college...perhaps a pair of chaps might evoke some "curious" response (I am kidding so please do not accuse me of being a homeopathophobe ;) ...sorry that was another thread)....
  10. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    We need an Enyclopedia of Podiatric Loons ... I can thinks of several people to add to get it started!
  11. Ideology

    Ideology Active Member

    How come water can remember the effect of some chemical diluted 10 the the power of -60 but fails to remember the poo that was in it?
  12. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    .....here in is the mystical powers of homeopathy. Read books like Stephen Laws, Believing Bull**** and Michale Shermer's Why to People Believe Weird Things and Milloy's Junk Science Judo ... they all have chapters devoted to debunking the mysticism associated with such claims!
  13. Ideology

    Ideology Active Member

    According to Homeopaths, the more dilute the solution, the more effective the medicine. Did you hear about the poor fellow the other day who overdosed on his homeopathic remedy? He forgot to take his tablets.........
  14. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    Infact water does remember the poo that was in it as it remembers every bladder that it has passed through but chooses to keep these memories locked in its subconscious.

    However you have inadvertently hit upon another fascinating facet of homeopathy and one which undoubtedly needs further exploration, the psychology of water. Sometimes termed by its detractors, a lot of piss.

    Have a nice day.

  15. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    A slight aside but you may be able to resolve some of my difficulties.

    About four years ago my wife's aunt was dying of liver cancer. A life long catholic she asked if we could bring her some holy water from Lourdes as we were going to visit friends in the south of France and would be passing.

    While we were standing in the queue with our recycled two litre plastic bottle a number of 'philosophical' questions crossed my mind.

    The holy, miraculous, magical water comes from one small area of the site.

    My stream of questions went like this.

    As the rain drains through the earth and begins to run towards the spring at what point does it become 'holy'?

    As some of the now holy water evaporates and becomes holy evaporation, if it moves out of the area are its miraculous powers removed?

    However my most head scratching question was, how much holy water is needed to produce the best therapeutic result?

    Does an omnipotent being produce omnipotent water, so to speak? If so then one would imagine that it is a miracle per molecule? So why were we standing there with a two litre bottle? As I suggested to my wife, the fact that we had a two litre bottle and not a one ml bottle was an measure of our lack of faith. Although the same argument could have applied even to a one ml bottle.

    As the patient drinks the holy water what happens to the holy water? As it creates its miracle does it lose it power? If it does is it truly omnipotent? If it doesn't then it must be transformed into holy pee?

    As this omnipotent pee is recycled at what point does it lose its miraculous powers? But that's surely a contradiction in terms. If it's omnipotent it can't lose its powers can it?

    Finally. In this recycling of holy water, when a small volume of holy water is mixed with a larger volume of water is its power diluted?

    I notice that the question are moving from the religous to the homeopathic or is it that they both subsets of magic?


    We kept a small volume of the holy water but after four years I am afraid to drink it. Does anyone know if holywater has a sell by date?

    If you added poison to holy water would it be poisonous?

    So many questions and so few answers.
  16. Ideology

    Ideology Active Member

    Bill you are a philosopher. Omnipotent is a funny concept. A few wise men have pointed out that omnipotence and omnicience are logically incompatible. One who is omnipotent can do anything any time, but if that entity were also omnicient it would know what it was about to do and therfore couldn't change its mind or it would contradict itself destroying its omnicience, or it would have to stay ont he chosen course to preseve omnicience destroying omnipotence.
    I notice neither holy water or God seems to be able to cure amputees? What did they do to be banished from miracle eligibility?
  17. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    Funny you should mention that.

    My wife and I spoke about that when we were standing in the queue or to be more accurate I spoke about it and here response was shhh!

    Lourde is full of people in wheel chairs being pushed by carers. The handicapped are aided by their carers in the pools as well.

    I suggested to my wife the following miracle. Carer and handicapped in the pool. Crash of thunder or whatever heralds a miracle.

    Carer disappears under the water. The miracle doesn't produce a cure for the lame or halt but produces a spontaneous leg amputation for the carer. Curses and cures are surely but opposite sides of the miracle coin?

    I measured the success of that idea by the duration of the shhhhhhhhhhh....! from my wife.

    Mind your head.

  18. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

  19. Tkemp

    Tkemp Active Member

    I use Homeopathy on my cats when they are ill. They have no idea what I am giving them (except its evil and I am cruel and deserve to lose a limb.... when they are feeling better and have the strength of course) but it works 9 times out of 10.

    I believe there may be something about Homeopathy that does work in some cases.

    Obviously I do go to the Vets if symptoms do not improve and in emergencies... for the cats, the cats.. not me! :rolleyes:
  20. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    You are giving them water!! Homeopathy dilutes things so much the chances of any active agent being present in any solution that is used is so low, there will be nothing other than water. It simple arithmetic to work this out.

    I love reading what homeopaths write when they try to explain this.... its just shows you how deluded they have become.
  21. Tkemp

    Tkemp Active Member

    It must be the brandy in the Rescue remedy that does the trick!
    ..... hmmm......
    Tracy had a little cat
    It had a touch of colic.
    She gave it Rescue Remedy twice a day
    And now its alcoholic!
  22. Ideology

    Ideology Active Member

    At the kinds of dilutions Homeopaths use, not only is there none of the active substance in the solution, there are no molecules that have been in contact with a molecule of the active substance. Its just water. Cats are amazing survivors. Incredibly tough animals. They will overcome many minor ailments but please don't give them homeopathic medicine, it doesn't work. "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" after, therefore because of - coincidental correlation. The cat would have got better anyway.
  23. Tkemp

    Tkemp Active Member

    Thank you for the concern for my cats. However, if it is only water then it can't do them any harm. If there is a risk of harm, then obviously there must be an active ingredient in the treatments to cause such.
    Either one or another.
    As it stands I am happy to be counted among the "gullible" who feel the hours / days difference it makes in my cats recovery is worth the money for bottles of "snake oil"
  24. Ideology

    Ideology Active Member

    Agreed the homeopathic medicine will do no direct harm. That was not my concern. However, time to move on I think.
  25. When my cat looks peeky, I use the mystical incantation "you little S*** if you've swallowed something don't think you're going to the vet, I have a spade a bag and a brick". It works every single time.

    You can't do that. You can't have it both ways.

    If it is just water and you take the view that it cannot do them any harm, then you must logically also take the position that it cannot do any good either.

    If on the other hand you believe it has a biochemical effect then its logical to believe that it can do good, but also that it could do harm.

    To start from the position "its only water and thus cannot harm" then switch to "it might be theraputic so it might be doing good" is to hold two contradictory concepts to be true at the same time. Its not logical!

    And there is the rub. You're happy, and good luck to you. The remedy is not for your cats, its for you! To make you feel better about your beloved pet being poorly, you do something and it helps you feel you're looking after your cat. Nothing wrong with that.:drinks But lets not pretend its something its not.

    A bizarre practice, not even internally consistent.
  26. Ideology

    Ideology Active Member

    Unless you are the sick cat that needs treatment....:wacko:
  27. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    (About four years ago my wife's aunt was dying of liver cancer. A life long catholic she asked if we could bring her some holy water from Lourdes as we were going to visit friends in the south of France and would be passing.)

    A bizarre practice, not even internally consistent.
    Robert Isaacs

    It would be if you passing water!

  28. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    In this particular case you are missing the single diagnosis for which a homeopathic remedy would be appropriate and without which the cat would not have got better but would have rapidly succumbed.

    The cat was suffering from dehydration.

    Let the world know that at last we have found a life threatening condition that can be cured in 100% percent of cases by homeopathy.

    I am sure that there is a business opportunity in Homeopathic bottled water. No?http://www.podiatry-arena.com/images/smilies/morning2.gif

  29. Ideology

    Ideology Active Member

    Of course Bill. How silly of me, except there is no water in the pills. They are dry and bottled with one of those little packets of whatever. The water thing is a good idea though, with an appropriate overdose and safty warning naturally
  30. Sugar pills, so possibly a hypoglycaemic cat...

    Actually, there are lots of ailments for which homeopathy is appropriate. Mainly for the "worried well"...

    How about somebody with a twitchy metabolism, who suffers lots of ADRs who has mild hypertension. Homeopathy has a proven track record...
  31. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    Hmm didn't think about pills.

    Homeopathic pills are made from either sugar or lacose and then a drop of the magic mix is added to each pill. Therefore each pill contains a little drop of added water. The pills are then packaged with a little bag of hygroscopic silica which attracts water.

    If the water in each pill is then attracted to the silica I take it that means that the little bag of silica then becomes the healing source? So throw away the pills and suck on the silica bag would be the best advice I could give in the circumstances.

  32. Tkemp

    Tkemp Active Member

    Also an excellent remedy for sialorrhea ;)
  33. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    Nice one tracy.

    Maybe we can open it up to the budding McGonagalls within the international podiatry community.

    Just for starters:

    Tracy's little cat was ill
    No more did she frolic
    'til Tracy popped her little pill
    Now she's caterwaulic.

    Bill (no this is not the fifth line of the verse)

    PS Notice the clever use of 'she'. Your right - self praise is no praise.
  34. Tkemp

    Tkemp Active Member

    Haha! The little white pills make all the difference :drinks
    While the cat hides under the bed wondering if its safe to emerge yet :rolleyes:
  35. Ideology

    Ideology Active Member

  36. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    So homeopathy is, an example of magical thinking. No surprise there.

    That's one more for the rubbish heap of irrationality. One down and many more to go.

    Please select the next victim from the following list of examples of magical thinking: advertising, superstition, spiritualism, psychic healing, the power of prayer, voodoo, religion, etc.

    Magical thinking is built in with the genes. Destroy one manifestation of it and it will pop up somewhere else in a different guise or even in the same guise.

    Would life be richer or poorer without it?

    Homeopathy is probably a relatively harmless manifestation of magical thinking as long as its wings are clipped frequently and regularly. The danger is that the clipper becomes the clipped, eg advertising, religion.

  37. Ideology

    Ideology Active Member

    Problem is its not harmless. Effective treament can be delayed and misdiagnoses made by untrained professionals who are clearly not thinking straight. At best they might believe they are doing good but are deluding themselves. The other problem is one of ethics. Charging patients for treatments that are proven to be less effective than placebos is hardly good practice. As a wise man said - There is a name for alternative therapies that work, its "Medicine"
  38. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Here is the latest installment from Steven Novella:
    Homeopathy’s Recent Woes
  39. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

  40. pd6crai

    pd6crai Active Member

    I did a course on homeopathy, and for 6 months (the duration of the course) I used only homeopathic remedies. I didnt find them of any benefit at all.

    My whole family used the pills for a range of things from teething, to headaches to sore wrists.

    I dont recommend people use it, unless they have tried everything and are desperate enough to try anything.

    People on my course swear by the effectiveness of homeopathy, I however had an open mind for 6 months and did not see any benefit in it.

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