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Verucca needling with acupuncture needles?

Discussion in 'General Issues and Discussion Forum' started by bartypb, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. bartypb

    bartypb Active Member

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    Hi all,

    I have heard of needling veruca with acupuncture needles, rather than using a local anaesthetic and normal gauge needle, has anyone used this technique, and if so are the results favourable?

    I've see needling to planter lesions work well however tibial block needed so patient can't drive after which can be a pain!!

    Thanks all

    Bartypb ( marc )
  2. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Hi Marc

    Tib blocks shouldnt be "a pain" any more than digital blocks for nail surgary. Pods are licensed to use LA, so why not take full advantage of our skills to help our patients? Acupuncture techniques should be left to those trained in acupuncture, IMO. Besides, acupuncture needles do not penetrate deep enough to implant HPV particles to subcutaneous tissue where the immune regulators dwell.

  3. Ian Linane

    Ian Linane Well-Known Member

    Hi Marc

    I think Bel makes a valid point on utilising LA in this procedure and although I do use acupuncture in my practice I would not use Acupuncture needles for VP for a number of reasons.

    The main one is the sheer practically of penetrating the skin with the same needle anywhere from 10-50 times, especially on the plantar foot. Given their fine nature and the very small grip area of acupuncture needles I do not think they lend themselves to a safe use of repeated deep penetration to the dermis by the same needle (even the small size ones). Even if you were trained to use them with out the guide tube, to do so on a VP on the plantar foot would be quite cumbersome compared to the usual method. An injection needle lends itself well to this treatment approach via its strength and ability to be held firmly. In addition, it might argued you are using an acupuncture needle for a purpose it is not suited to if anything ever went wrong.

    Acupuncture needles are used most of the time to penetrate the dermis as we often go quite deep into the musculature and, in the plantar foot, may go as deep as the Quadratus P.
  4. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    If you are using acupuncture needles do you need to give an LA?

    Surely the pain is relieved by the use of an acupuncture needle? No?

  5. blinda

    blinda MVP

    I didn`t know that, Ian. Love this place, always something new to learn :drinks
  6. Ian Drakard

    Ian Drakard Active Member

    I use 100mm acupuncture needles regularly for calves- how deep do want to go ;)

    I think this is confusing the needling technique (did we settle on PIS in the end or did that get dropped ;) ) with acupunture needling. As far as I'm aware you would not try repeated penetration as even with an fine acupunture needle that would not be nice.

    I've used acupuncture needling a handful of times on vps. A single puncture with local 'stimulation'. A couple went, some didn't. Does it acually work? Don't know, but it is fairly painless and no harmful effects so would be happy to try it again.
  7. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Ok, already! ;) I get it, you do go deep..... but I agree, I certainly wouldn`t want to penetrate multiple times until no resistance is felt without LA :eek:
  8. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

  9. drdebrule

    drdebrule Active Member

    The most recent study I read on Falknor's needling calls for repeated needling until lesion is a bloody pulp. I don't think this can be accomplished with accupuncture needles. However, perhaps the verrucae doesn't need to be needled in and out so many times. Could one trigger an immune response with just 5 punctures from 18 or 25 gage needle or an even smaller accupuncture needle? This would be a good area for future research.
  10. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Of course, any wound will induce an innate immune response, but not necessarily enough to produce the relevant amount of cytokines to overcome the mechanisms employed by the Human Papilloma Virus to down-regulate a potential adaptive immune response.

    Needling, the procedure first described by Falknor, requires multiple penetrations to the subcutaneous layer until there is no more resistance felt, ie the lesion is destroyed. The theory is; exposure of viral particles (from the destroyed keratinocytes) are implanted to where the body is rich in immune regulators, thus increasing the likelihood of relevant production of cytokines and a subsequent systemic immune response to eradicate the virus/reduce viral load.

  11. Jeff Carnett

    Jeff Carnett Member

    Basically use of acupuncture needles to verrucae is an inoculation approach to get an immune response. That traditional Chinese Medicine approach is actually topical herbs which has acidic affect. Needling can be done using a fine gauze hypodermic needle easily as well. Whatever the approach the effectiveness is about the same for what I have read. I had great results with hypnotic suggestion as well. It is all about immune response.
  12. blinda

    blinda MVP

    It is all about the appropriate immune response - and evidence of thus.

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