Moved Posts from Top covers for PTTD thread
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Speaking form a purely mechanical stand point you could have a top cover with increased Friction medial to the STJ axis when the Tib Post is ´working´and a top cover with reduced friction lateral to the STJ at that point.
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Re: Top covers for PTTD
Why not just give a high friction cover all over?
Murley GS, Buldt AK, Trump PJ, Wickham JB.
Tibialis posterior EMG activity during barefoot walking in people with neutral foot posture.
J Electromyogr Kinesiol. 2009 Apr;19(2):e69-77. Epub 2007 Nov 28. -
Re: Top covers for PTTD
I guess you would go with the increased friction medial to the STJ axis at the most pronatedish position -
Re: Top covers for PTTD
Why would an increase in friction increase supination resistance? Would it not depend on other variables? And indeed whether we are looking at the rotation of the calc around the sub talar axis or rotation of the foot around the interface axis?
Been trying to get my head around dynamic vectors since the weekend. Giving me all kinds of trauma. For eg. Assume that the vector of force from the foot is straight down. Now assume we put a foot with lots of navicualar drift into an insole with a high medial flange, like a UCBL. Now when the foot loads onto the ground it will be trying to pronate, viz, get wider. The medial part of the foot will be pushing lateral -> medial and the lateral side medial -> lateral. The medial flange of the orthotic is therefor only capable of applying medial -> lateral force as much as the lateral side / flange of the orthotic / shoe is capable of braking it. Intuitively, the higher the friction on the lateral side of the orthotic, the more lateral the force will be....
So the ORF vector starts with that. Then factor the actual vector of force from the way the foot hits the ground, the angulation of the orthotic surface and the level to which this is modified by the friction co-efficient. At which point my brain explodes.
Returning to the OP, Eva. because it comes in cool patterns. -
Re: Top covers for PTTD
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Re: Top covers for PTTD
I teach my minions that any time I, or anyone, asks them a question in biomechanics that they have no idea how to answer, they use "it depends on the morphology and functional characteristics of the individual in question."
Good one for all you undergraduates...
I completely failed to understand this though. Could you elucidate please?
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Re: Top covers for PTTD
Answer - Depends
marker = Fail
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Re: Top covers for PTTD
It depends. -
Re: Top covers for PTTD
Ok if we say yes for arguments sake -
the net moments acting on the STJ have increased ie both medial and lateral to the STJ axis, but the medial have increase to a greater extent and the CoP is medial, we will have an external Supination moment.
Whats acts as resistance to the external supination moment ?
Muscle - PL, PB, PT
ligaments
Bone compression forces
and the device anywhere lateral to the Subtalat Joint axis, right ?
So increased friction of the top cover must increase the Supination resistance of the device. -
Re: Top covers for PTTD
Sorry, I think I'm having a slow day. :sinking: I'm struggling to follow you here Mike. Perhaps if you used shorter words? Or pictures? Or some kind of cartoon animals? Pedro the pronation moment pony or something? -
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Right. One or both of us is having a brain fart. I suggest we both drink beer, then go back at it and see if it swims into focus. Or as you say perhaps someone else can help.
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Re: Top covers for PTTD
Thought I'd posted something from my i-phone earlier. Obviously not.
I suggest you go back a step. Take an incline plane with block on it, draw in the forces acting on the block with the block in static equilibrium. Then draw in the forces for the block with it sliding down the incline; then draw in the forces with the block being drawn up the incline. What difference do these situation make to the direction of the net force vector?
You'll probably find a java app to do this for you. -
Re: Top covers for PTTD
Endless possibilities. I'm going to have to work on the avatar.
Eric -
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Re: Top covers for PTTD
Pedro the pronation pony
Just like pronation.......HE'S BAD!!!!!!!!Attached Files:
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I feel a new avatar coming on...
Liking yours by the way Robin. -
Re: Top covers for PTTD
Go for it Robert, the Arena needs a bit of spicing up
Just a thought, but :deadhorse: could be Pedro the pronation pony -
Re: Top covers for PTTD
As in smack the pony?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-6HqMHpkFo
Poor pedro. -
Re: Top covers for PTTD
Only a second before the "punchline" did I realise I had seen it before - didn't make it any less funny.
thanks for that robert, brightened up my evening
robin
Apologies for, as usual, going totally off topic. No more - 1mm EVA as I said -
Re: Top covers for PTTD
Yeah.
A warning though. I downloaded the conchords album and had it on my ipod yesterday when in the lab. Turns out that the inevitable singing under the breath that headphones cause is not ideal with that particular album. The poor girl sharing the lab with me was, I'm told, initially quite terrified then disturbed. She apparently has no interest in my sugarlumps, nor that I consider myself freaky. She was mildly interested in the distribution of mail genitalia on the dance floor though. Also, I have an excellant falsetto "gay voice" for the appropriate moments. -
Re: Top covers for PTTD
Had a few beers and it doesn´t seemed to have helped.
I think I´m in way over my head Physics wise.
From a common sense side Pulling the block up the incline should have greater friction Vector what this does to the net force vector I really have no idea. -
an easy question, what material gives you the highest friction?
also will higher friction top cover encourage more callous formation? -
No one ?
If we add a cuboid lift to a device with felt, we will have changed the make up of the external moments acting on the subtalar joint right ?
Friction is an important factor in how a device works
So will friction lateral to the axis effect the effectiveness of the device ? In reducing pronation moment ?
Anyone ? -
Thinking back to a slippery heel cup in a medial heel skive device... The medial to lateral force from the surface will cause the foot to slide down the hill until something stops it. What will stop the slide is a high lateral heel cup that will apply a lateral to medial force to bring the net medial lateral force to zero. So, a surface with high friction would prevent the initial slide, but probably not gain you anything in the end.
Eric
Pedro rides again
The mark of Pedro
Hi ho Pedro cue the William Tell overture.... -
Mike
The issue I have with friction is whether the coefficient of friction will ever be powerful enough to effect CoP progression enough to be worth worrying about.
As friction from the top cover will have to act through the soft tissue and therefore be 'dampened', will any effect be seen on force? (Need a mathematician quickly)
I do think that friction is important to consider when using a sticky material that will potentially decelerate epidermal translation over the dermis = interstitial friction.
You see this with silicone top covers causing arch blistering when a higher, more slippy insole doesn't.
Anecdotaly we have found that polyprop insoles without top covers have better compliance than covered ones!
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http://www.kau.edu.sa/Files/320/Researches/56847_27169.pdf
A nice little study would be to look at the coefficient of friction between sock and top-cover materials using the inclined plane method.
The thing about foot orthoses is that the superior surface is a complex series of inclined planes, if the angulation between two points on the surface exceeds the angle of friction for sock versus top-cover material then there will be slippage of the foot in the area between these two points. So we might have areas of the foot-orthosis interface were static friction is not overcome, and areas of the foot-orthosis interface where static friction is overcome. This will likely create "hot-spots". I talked about this before, but I don't know which thread. -
Lets simplify it and make the orthosis an inclined plane. Without any friction you'd slide down it- right? So during your slide would the net reaction force vector be more or less vertical than on an identical device with infinitely high friction on which no siding occurred? -
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Mark, this is one of the short presentations I gave at the ACFAOM meeting last october. You'll see I looked at co-efficient and angle of friction of a handful of orthotic materials versus nylon and cotton socks and talked about some of the potential implications.
Attached Files:
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You have posted some crackers of presentations over the past week with this one combined with the presentations from Belgium.
For what it is worth my personal feeling is that I don't want friction to be a factor in the design of the orthotic- in other word if I don't want to need to put a high friction top cover on the orthosis to resist shear forces- I would prefer to resist the forces with the geometery of the orthosis. This is why I almost always use a shell device as you have the option of an effective deep heel cup, more lateral support through the cuboid region etc etc...
I also do not like relying on footwear to provide the lateral heel cup support- as it is separate from the orthotic shell, it will wear and distort over time no matter how strong it is. -
That you don't want friction to be a factor in the design of the orthotic is neither here nor there because it always is. :D
Maybe you'd be good enough to share your presentation from the upcoming Delcam conference after you've presented it? -
If you go back to the earlier posts I think Eric summed it up well with- -
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If I apply an significant enough supination force (for example via a medial skive) that the heel wants to slide down the device, then I would also want a deep heel cup and/or support through the cuboid region to try to ensure that it cannot. I think this is where the Feehery/ Fettig/ Denton modifications came from with the Blake inverted device.
I believe the multi-directional stiffness of the device here is important due to the desire to apply forces at discreet points and directions...
I think we are on the same page judging by your presentations, but am I making sense? -
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