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Acupuncture no but dry needling ,perhaps .

Discussion in 'General Issues and Discussion Forum' started by scotfoot, Jan 16, 2020.

  1. scotfoot

    scotfoot Well-Known Member

    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    In my opinion , evidence just about proves that acupuncture is a "bells and whistles placebo" . But I believe dry needling may well work by relieving fluid pressures within hydraulically discrete fascicles , containing damaged muscle fibers .
    The damaged areas might be identified by palpation and accumulated fluid released by needling .
    A bit like lancing an abscess .

    Any thoughts ?
  2. scotfoot

    scotfoot Well-Known Member

    To understand the above it might help to read the thread linked to here -

    upload_2020-1-16_17-7-3.png biomch-l.isbweb.org › threads › 28655-Hydraulically-discrete-fascicle...
    Hydraulically discrete fascicles in skeletal muscle - Biomch-L

    13 Feb 2016 - 2 posts - ‎1 authorIf the perimysium is sufficiently impermeable then might it be possible that each fascicle is able to function as a hydraulically discrete unit with ...
  3. Jeff Carnett

    Jeff Carnett Member

    Acupuncture when applied using both Western medical theories and Traditional Chinese diagnosis in selecting points and modalities is more useful in my opinion than dry needling or other forms of "cook book" approaches. Unfortunately in many jurisdictions podiatrists are not allowed to apply authentic acupuncture techniques.
  4. scotfoot

    scotfoot Well-Known Member

    At a physiotherapists suggestion , I once tried acupuncture to try to settle a long standing elbow problem . As it happens it made no difference and the elbow healed on its own about 3 months on .
    My mind is not closed to acupuncture but research ,taken as a whole , is now firmly trending towards placebo .

    I would classify the technique as something which does reduce pain via a placebo effect .

    I see it as closely tied up with a belief system rather than science .

    Did you look at Hydraulically discrete fascicles in skeletal muscle - Biomch-L ?
  5. PowerPodiatry

    PowerPodiatry Active Member

    Opinions may vary and are free to give.
    Have a look at the actual research on acupuncture and your opinion may change rather than go off half cocked with an opinion piece.
  6. scotfoot

    scotfoot Well-Known Member

    Does Power Podiatry have a vested interest in the efficacy of acupuncture ?
  7. Jeff Carnett

    Jeff Carnett Member

    Acupuncture research can be tricky as there is no such thing as shame acupuncture-any needle into the skin, wether a point or not will in theory create a physiologic response. In theory acupuncture points would create more of a change.
    Veterinary acupuncture is a common example when addressing placebo effect. Unless we can say that horses and other critters respond to needles is "due to a belief system" we cannot dismiss it based on the fact that some humans have not been helped by acupuncture. The same is true of NSAIDS for example, why do some respond to one NSAID but not another? Why do many patients benefit from a certain NSAID for a period then need to change to another until that one fails to work then they go back to the first one again? Same for acupuncture, it might help some and not others but that is not evidence it is all placebo.
    I think when we apply acupuncture to a Western analysis model it can be difficult since the science of Chinese Medicine has other rules. But Chinese Medicine has set rules that are consistent. So, it to is a "science" but different.

    Medicine is really an art based on some scientific ideas. The human body is an unpredictable element of the therapeutic encounter. Makes it very interesting.
  8. PowerPodiatry

    PowerPodiatry Active Member

    Placebo and sham-needling...yes this will always be brought up and I have not reply other than placebo is still a valid effect that western medicine uses all the time with drugs such as paracetamol.

    We are all biased and I'm fine with that...

    For those that want to explore further

    Traditional Acupuncture Triggers a Local Increase in Adenosine in Human Subjects

    The Journal of Pain, Vol 13, No 12 (December), 2012: pp 1215-1223
    Available online at www.jpain.org and www.sciencedirect.com
  9. scotfoot

    scotfoot Well-Known Member

    Jeff , are you saying that the efficacy of acupuncture has been tested and reported in horses ? If so could you provide a link to the paper ?

    I am a now a bit wary of medical research coming out of China . As far as I remember , the Chinese Government came out recently and admitted that 80 % of the countries research into pharmaceuticals was suspect .
  10. PowerPodiatry

    PowerPodiatry Active Member

    Gerrard you should be wary of all published medical research. When I was doing a biostatistical subject for my masters the lecturer made us redo the statistical analysis of a published paper in the Lancet journal. We were to find that the results that were published were totally bogus. If you look into the bias of very well known medical journals you will find that many editors will admit the bias and misinformation.

    Reader beware...

    Use acupuncture don't use acupuncture, strengthen the intrinsic foot musculature or don't...we all have to make choices everyday and the beauty is that we can change as often as we like.
  11. scotfoot

    scotfoot Well-Known Member

    Leaving acupuncture aside for a moment , what do you think of the mechanism I proposed earlier to explain, in a very simple way , how dry needling might work ?

    Anyone out there doing dry needling ?
  12. PowerPodiatry

    PowerPodiatry Active Member

    Inserting a needle anywhere will have at least a central nervous system response and a local response. Now for changing local muscle (surrounded by fascia) I think that we will get an effect in multiple ways:
    • Neurotransmitters increase in concentration (adenosine, ATP, NAD)
    • Maybe this gives the mitochondria more "fuel" to change the function of the muscle fibres????
    • Maybe an osmotic shift occurs???
    • Maybe it is the facia that changes and its electrical conductivity????
    Most likely people smarter than me will work it out.
  13. scotfoot

    scotfoot Well-Known Member

    The mechanism I propose by which dry needling produces an effect is like the lancing of a boil , or more specifically the lancing of a fascicle with increase fluid content .
    This mechanism has little to do with acupuncture which , based on what I have read , seems to be all about phsychology .
    Acupuncture is no longer included in NICE guidelines for the treatment of back pain .
  14. scotfoot

    scotfoot Well-Known Member

    If I am correct , that dry needling is in fact the lancing of a dysfunctional /damaged fascicle or muscle fiber , then , in my opinion , dry needling is simply not acupuncture in any accepted sense of the word . A similar needle may be used but there the similarities end .

    To understand the fluid mechanics involved in muscle fascicles or fibers you could do worse than read the text linked to below . The basic ideas contain in the linked to material are fast becoming mainstream .

    [​IMG] biomch-l.isbweb.org › threads › 28655-Hydraulically-discrete-fascicle...
    Hydraulically discrete fascicles in skeletal muscle - Biomch-L

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