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Off the wall?

Discussion in 'General Issues and Discussion Forum' started by Ian Linane, Jan 6, 2005.

  1. Ian Linane

    Ian Linane Well-Known Member

    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Within in the realm of psychology (since the 70’s at least) there has been an increasing recognition and acceptance that complex information is registered, stored and also drawn from the energy system of the body (meridians if you wish). One eminent UK, NHS based, consultant psychologist has suggested that perhaps the energy system of a person is the matrix that governs all neurophysiological activity.

    I have certainly used an energy psychology treatment to improve an individual’s gait, post recovery of a fibula break, by addressing the shock element. This persons gait transformed from being overly careful and asymmetric in weight bearing to being confident and symmetric in weight bearing. Further more she was now able to walk along the route where she broke her fibula without “going around” the actual area.

    More recently I have suggested this approach could be beneficially used to help elderly people whose impaired gait may have a shock of an experienced fall component in it.

    My reason for raising the issue is to stimulate (hypothetical perhaps) discussion as to whether the concept of information transmission within the energy system could have implications in looking at how orthoses work!

    Any views from anyone?

  2. Sarah B

    Sarah B Active Member

    RE: Off the Wall

    Hi Ian

    I'm not a psychologist (my psychological training being limited to that received as part of my BSc), which perhaps explains my ignorance of this 'accepted theory'. Do you have any references for clinical trials/studies about the theories involved? I would not wish to form an opinion without having at least some basic understanding of the concepts involved, which up to now I have never heard of. Some info as to how one would even start to go about altering gait with a pschological strategy would also be of interest to me. :confused:

    Thanks, I look forward to your reply,

    Last edited: Jan 6, 2005
  3. Ian Linane

    Ian Linane Well-Known Member

    Hi Sarah

    Thanks for the reply.

    The following may be of use but go to the Thought Field Therapy web site for better information.
    My main concern in posting this is to raise the debate about whether there is an element to human movement and particularly how orthotics work that may involve information activity in the meridian system. As understanding and insight into how the meridian system affects various aspects of health grows and as it may well be a communication system equal to the neurological one in import and affect, a holistic approach must take this into consideration.


    1. The specific area of energy medicine I refer to is called Thought Field Therapy and originated approx 23 years ago. It arose out of psychotherapy but was considered very dubiously then. Indeed its originator experienced the usual ostracism of anyone exploring new ground. Some still do think like that but over the last 20 years a lot has occurred in psychotherapy, one aspect of which has been the involvement of meridian work in relation to specific thoughts. TFT was very much an originator of this approach. It is this technique I used on the lady with the once broken fibula. I am not a psychotherapist but it is a technique that has no known adverse affects and can be taught (the basic elements) to and can be used by children. It has been used in Kosovo, and being used in Beslan by trauma psychology specialists.

    2. Research in TFT and other energy therapies is improving but as anyone who is involved in emotional issues, at a professional level will indicate, the concept of evidence base in notoriously difficult. However, there is a lot of information and some serious studies on the concept and tracing of meridian lines:

    “One such is by a Russian scientist Vladimir Zagriadskii… He found that soft laser light was conducted along pathways that correspond to meridians... Resulting from this he made a device that served to maximise the activity within the meridian. This device…. was then used to maintain health of the cosmonauts in the Mir space station.” Phillip Mollon.

    3. Laying further behind some of this approach is the work of Rupert Sheldrake (biologist) who posited the concept of an “organizing morphogenic field, carrying a blue print for the body but also capable of learning and of transmitting information down the generations”.

    4. TFT has now been shown to have significant affect on what is called heart rate variability, measurable by computer and research is being done on individual acupuncture points whilst being utilised by TFT. Studies are also being done into the physiological affect of TFT on heart Fibrillation which it seems to benefit.
  4. Sarah B

    Sarah B Active Member

    Off The Wall?!

    Hi Ian
    Thanks for the info. I've searched a bit on the net, but have to admit that so far I have found little evidence to really back up this seemingly controversial approach. Unfortunately the links to evidence on thoughtfieldtherapy.co.uk do not work, but the papers I've read via psychnet are inconclusive, to say the least. I am unable to understand what is meant by 'energy' in this context - perhaps I am too grounded in traditional science (once a scientist, etc), but it all seems somewhat vague to me. :confused: For now, I'll stick to my current understanding of of biomechanics. However, this is not say it will always be so.

    I can see where you're coming from when it comes to the psychology of falls & the effect of that on gait; certainly the fear of falling seems to play a part in the behaviour of some of my patients. However, whether TFT would be more effective than using confidence-building techniques & counselling is an important question. So far, the indications from NHS falls prevention strategies (which usually incorporate physio & OT to improve muscle funvction) seem promising. I have observed amongst my patients that participating in our PCT's falls programme seems to help with confidence as well. (Just an observation though!)

    By the way, were you the guy interested in intestinal flukes & diabetes? (My memory may be playing tricks, but I thought I recognised your name from that thread last year.)
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2005
  5. Ian Linane

    Ian Linane Well-Known Member

    Hi Sarah

    Thanks for the reply.

    For the concept of "energy" and the influence of the energy system read any descent work on accupuncture including chinese accupuncture and not just Western Accupuncture and the writing of Rupert Sheldrake (1985,1988,1999).

    My reason for posting was simply to raise a question for discussion. Physio's etc have to come to terms with "energy concepts" impacting upon their work, think broader than their tradditional scientific training, this is simply what I am doing. I do not mind seeming of the wall.

    "Once a Scientist always a scientist." I can understand this, however, the concept of energy and information contained and transferred via energy is not against science. Physicists ( I suggest more scientifically minded than us)I have spoken with have little problem with this. Perhaps it is the type of science we are trained in that is limiting.

    In 1985 Research by Becker and Seldon suggested a bodily energy system responsible for the organisation and healing of the body. Research was done by Burr in 1972( "Blueprint for immortality. The Electric patterns of life"). Part of his conclusion on organising energy fieids ( called L fields) reads:

    "Until modern instruments revealed the existence of the controlling L-fields, biologists were at a loss to explain how our bodies kept in shape through ceaseless metabolism and changes of material. Now the mystery has been solved, the electro-dynamic field of the body serves as a matrix, which preserves the "shape" or arrangement of any material poured into it, however often the material be changed."

    Flukes and the diabetic. No it is not my interest nor am I convinced but I posted it out of curiosity. And I remain open to any possibility.

    The question remains for debate:

    Even if the above writers who argue for a controlling system that over arches our usual neurophysiological concept are partly correct and that information relating to bodily function is contained, transmitted and, possibly, partly regulated by it then should we consider this in determing how orthotics work, not least because one effect of orthosis wearing is the passage of information relating to reactions of body posture change. Perhaps not just through neural networks alone?

    I do not know the answer, nor how you measure it. But whats the harm in considering it.

  6. Sarah B

    Sarah B Active Member

    Thanks Ian. I did not wish to sound dismissive, and I do try to keep an open mind. However, there are so many 'alternative' explanations for so many facets of medicine that after a while that I have probably started to become somewhat cynical. I would not mind at all another explanation for the efficacy of orthotics; particularly as some biomechanical theories are also much-discussed and contested!

    Maybe one day I'll know it all... but I doubt it! :)
  7. Ian Linane

    Ian Linane Well-Known Member

    Hi Sarah.

    No offense was taken and I hope my reply did not seem reactionary.

    My original training and background are Philosphy, Ancient and Modern History (1500 BC to 1830 AD missing out the dark ages - can't remember a dam thing about it), Theology, Ethics, Clinical theology and a few others. Since then I have trained in various styles of reflexology, having entered it highly skeptical originally and three years ago trained in Thought Field Therapy. Having also experienced many years of illness where men in white coats with lots of degrees came at me with lots of scientifically "proven" approaches and certainties, with a modicome of success (I was a very compliant patient). Complementary medical approaches appeared to have had a greater benefit, even to the point of resolving the problem. This does not make me a convert to things but simply reinforces my view that what matters is if it works, not always how it works, nor having to prove or understand how it works.

    Coming from that back ground, and after lots of involvement in people lives in all manner crises, into medicine, Science does not come to be the Important measure of effectiveness rather I see it as an equal partner and without its complementary half somewhat short sighted and vice versa.

    Part of the richeness in life is getting lost in the woods and find one of many paths that leads you safely out. You could say that path works but some one who found another path would say theirs works and maybe better! But pathways are not for getting out but exploring. Explore some of the things you mention without worring about an answer. It is surprising what you find and what finds you!

    Not wanting to sound patronising


  8. DaFlip

    DaFlip Active Member

    though process

    with the advent of fMRI and PET scans there has been significant new information which enables us to effectively show there are multiple ignition points of nodal function within the brain upon stimulus. I am certainly not the leading authority on this topic but there is a lot of new info if you look in the right places.
    The point of this is that if a traumatic event occurs it is put into memory and can be recalled. Some people term this a neurotag, an event or object or word or movement etc can stimulate a process of neuronal firing which produces a similar reactionary event to the original stimulus repetitively upon its occurence. It is 'branded' in there at the CNS level. So therefore even asking your patient about the injury will fire multiple areas in the brain. The smell at the time, the sounds, the pain etc- . Just like everyone can remember what their grandmother looked like, smelt like, spoke like etc. But there is no grandmother node in the brain. It causes multiple stimulation points in the brain. There will be much more on this over the next few years as further research looks at the role of the previously called, mind-body connections.
    To illustrate this there is a famous case of Flo-Jo many years ago where she was being filmed for a documentary and she tears her hammie on the 28th step in a training session. She goes down gets treated etc over a period of time. They go back to do another interview with her a year or so later and on the 28th step she dips on the side of the injury then regains normal form during her training run. Memory pattern, multiple nodal activation???
    So in answer to your original question it is quite conceivable orthoses may influence the nodal ignition centres through a change in stimuli, such as altered neural tension or reduced loading on soft tissue/boney structures in a highly sensitised region etc . This may additionally be achieved through activity modification, focused exercises to stimulate a different neuronal response to the original stimuli, strapping, strength exercises, flexibility, electrophysical therapy stimulation, meds etc. Providing further verbal information to the patient may have the same result to reduce pain(just as LBP studies show), or reduce the likelihood of altered gait patterns to accomodate an injury in the same location where it occurred. This is a pretty powerful tool.
    From the opposite perspective the use of orthoses in patient who have previously had a negative response from orthoses may be quite difficult if they have developed a 'neurotag' which equates orthoses with no results or pain for example.
  9. Ian Linane

    Ian Linane Well-Known Member

    Hi Mike

    Thanks for the reply. Plenty of information to digest over the weekend.
    I take all the points and agree that there are more exciting times of discovery ahead and look forward to it. Much of it will, I’m sure, be above my head.

    My apologies in advance to any reading the following for whom it is boring and not relevant but I hope at the end you may see my point in exploring this. Thank you for your patience.

    To take it further though, the responses you describe are very much linked with flesh and blood neurophysiology. The energy medicine approach would suggest that the neurophysiological response you describe is not the primary source of change but secondary in that it responds after a change of information in the energy system, the view being that the energy system (of which the meridians are only communication channels) is the controlling matrix over the whole psychosoma system.

    If this is the case then the argument could be that information from physiological changes (posture e.g) are first encoded via communication in the energy system and then reacted to by the psychsoma system.

    In the case of the lady who broke her fibula we have a FL-Jo situation in that the trauma was not an encoded memory (by memory we mean an event that has been filtered through the reasoning parts of the brain and carries acceptable, non-stressing sensory experiences when recalled) but a repeated experience event each time she thought of it or walked near the place of injury. A non- resolved, emotional event, very much live. (I understand that J. Le Doux’s research indicated that trauma events bypass the normal reasoning, filtering system and lock elsewhere in the brain as living events, hence the Flo-Jo experience)

    The treatment protocol used was simple, and she had no idea of what I was doing or trying to achieve (this was not a clinical setting and there are no known contraindications to this protocol after thousands of treatments world wide)

    1.Think of the problem and rate from 1-10 (1 acceptable memory, 10 mega distressing/overwhelming) she gave it a six (“feeling” the anxiety is not relevant to treatment)
    2Focus upon the problem.
    3.Simply tap these meridian points in a determined sequence
    4.Rate the problem now (she gave a 1 = resolution)
    5.Walk along the path. Normal, symmetric, confident gait with equal limb weight bearing.
    6.Time of Rx = 45 seconds
    7.Now really try to find the anxiety. Could not. “It is just seems a long time ago”

    The energy view is that the trauma of this event is a complex encoded piece of information that serves as a disturbance in the balance of the energy system which generates neurophysiological and neuropsychological (chemical) change when thought about.
    The treatment effects the subsuming of this coded information (rapidly maturing the event experience into a normal encoded memory) which then allows physiological and chemical changes to occur, in this case almost instantaneously. This is not to be confused with any idea of balancing the energy system which it does not. Six months later, on review, this change remains.

    That this “works” is clear. How it works is not and the above is an attempt to put a theory to it. Interestingly, this does not work if the lady could not think of the problem. Because she could not have got into the energy field of her single thought, in relation to that event, wherein the disturbance lay.

    The above is suggestive then of a system that controls change that is independent of the psychsoma system but linked into it.
    Hence my wondering if this, possibly, primary, system has a bearing on how orthotics work.

    Thanks and cheers

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