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Poron ?? Anyone heard about it??

Discussion in 'General Issues and Discussion Forum' started by footdrcb, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. footdrcb

    footdrcb Active Member


    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Hi all, I was speaking to a patient this morning about a product called "poron", which he is using on horse shoes. He also indicated that the American Army are now using it in all the soldier's footwear . Apparently it reduces transmitted shock by up to 60 percent. Below is a link.

    It is the first ive heard about it. Can anyone shed some light on this product ?

    FDCB :morning::morning:






    http://www.algeos.com.au/acatalog/Algeos_Online_PORON__4708__Blue__99.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2011
  2. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

    Its probably the most common orthotic material used by Podiatrists for at least the last 20 or so yrs.
     
  3. footdrcb

    footdrcb Active Member

    Must have had my head in the sand. At some point over the last 20 years. Just like asking a group of plumbers "has anyone heard about taps?"
     
  4. efuller

    efuller MVP

    Also known as PPT. I belive Langer had a trademark on PPT

    Eric
     
  5. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    Rogers Corporation sold 'poron' to Langer who marketed it as PPT; then Rogers started marketing it as poron through other channels. Langer then sourced a different material but with similar properties that they then continued to market as PPT. Who can remember the "apples" vs "oranges" adverts that came out around that time as the claims were made for the superiority of one over the other?
     
  6. Stirling

    Stirling Active Member

    Thank you FDCB for asking, I am always too scared to ask the "simple" questions. At least now I have a little background knowledge regarding why PPT and Poron are interchangeable, thanks Craig :D

    Thanks

    Stirling
     
  7. Catfoot

    Catfoot Well-Known Member

    footdrcb,
    Why are they putting in on horses' shoes? - is it to improve grip and/or reduce trauma to the hoof ?? :confused:

    Catfoot
     
  8. footdrcb

    footdrcb Active Member


    Apparently it is put under the horse shoe, only on trotters... Their mechanical strain (because of an unatural gait pattern go figure) puts strain on the distal joints.... He is a horse expert and im just a humble podiatrist.... he was however, very excited about : "poron" or as I have learned PPT....

    Maybe the government should use it to soften the blow of all the rubbish they throw at people in private business.....ooooops ...a topic for another time...

    All the best


    FDCB :drinks
     
  9. footdrcb

    footdrcb Active Member

    If you have watched the movie....." my big fat greek wedding" apples and oranges......we are all different . but we are all fruit...LOL ;)
     
  10. One of the things Mike Hooper (European sales for Langer) mentioned while we were in Portugal was that not all "poron's" are medical grade, i.e. they may contain nasties- he mentioned mercury. Whereas PPT is always only full of lovely nice things.....
     
  11. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    I thought that had been disproven. I know Reed medical who manufacture orthopaedic footwear stopped using Poron apparently for that reason. They changed to PPT or a copy of PPT.
     
  12. Now you just have to decide if you want poron 4000 performance, poron 4400 permafresh, poron 4708 medical grade, poron 96, Poron 92 (supersoft), poron 94 (memory) or Poron XRD (shock). They are all very different materials. I've used all of them at different times and for different things although I only have 4000, 4400, 92, 96 and XRD in the lab at the moment. And I never really learned to love XRD.
     
  13. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    Yeh XRD - can't really decide where it fits. Can't seem to find a situation when I would use it over other porons. Tell me though Robert, as you seem use porons quite a lot, when using poron as a top cover material and it is mouldeed into the heel cup of a device, it tends to tear easily. Which one is the strongest for resisting this? I think they are all a bit rubbish. I end up putting a 1mm EVA cover on them but I'm open to suggestions

    Robin
     
  14. I had great hopes for XRD but they somehow never came to fruition. For a memory foam I use either diabet or V9.

    I rarely use poron as a topcover for that very reason. By its very nature it resists being forced into shape. If I must then there you can either cover with EVA as you suggest or buy the poron with lycra cover. Low fiction, durability not the best, but better than poron alone.

    The other trick is when you stick it in, adhere the dell of the cup first, then the sides. That way you are asking to poron to compress in the corners rather than stretch into them, which is why it tends to tear. Its designed for compression, not stretch.

    But if I want a squishy topcover I'll use 3mm lunarsoft. Nearly as soft as poron much more durable and it heatmoulds.
     
  15. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    That brings me nicely to a thread I was going to start which was using open cell versus closed cell materials.

    I very seldom use poron as a top cover either. I don't make my own so I am at the mercy of the manufacturing lab and although they do a reasonable job, it still tears because of its poor resistance to tension as you say.

    I use Spenco quite a lot or Neolon(same thing - just a copy but cheaper). However, ir there are any open wounds, I was under the impression that using any open cell material was a complete no no. I tend to use Nora ultra low density EVA (I think that is lunairsoft?) because it is closed cell and i can have a higher heel cup as the material thermoforms.

    I can't remember where I read that open cell materials were very unhygenic for open wounds but it obvioulsy influenced my practice enough to be doing it now.

    Any opinions?
     
  16. Can't see how. Anything in a shoe is filthy anyway! The barrier dressing has to be adequate. If its not then what the insole is made of makes little difference I would imagine.

    But then I'm a biomechanist not a woundcare specialist.
     
  17. efuller

    efuller MVP

    If you go to the trouble to glue something on top of the poron why not use vinyl. The vinyl resists tearing and cleans relatively easily and lasts longer than fabric covers. Downside is it feels icky with feet without socks.

    Eric
     
  18. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    Absolutely nothing to back this up but I would presume that there would be less pressure reduction with vinyl top cover as opposed to 1mm EVA. Not so much the material itself but the effect it has on the material underneath. That is to say that the vinyl will have the effect of the poron being less compliant.

    Not sure about that now that i have written it down. Like I said, I seldom use poron for the very reason that i have to glue something on top to stop it from tearing.

    Robin
     
  19. Pressure reduction:rolleyes:. Are we back to the weight loss thread?;)

    I know what you mean though. A cover will affect the ability of the poron to conform and affect it's ability to distribute load more evenly. Like putting a plank on a mattress. The key thing is the ability of the cover to stretch. That's why Lycra works so well.

    I believe Eric used to use strips of mefix Or zinc oxide as a cover. Turns out Vinyl was better than tape... (sorry)
     
  20. Robin the bigger change with using Vinyl would be reduced friction of the top cover.
     
  21. Jeremy Long

    Jeremy Long Active Member

    Having worked so intimately in the past within the footwear manufacturing industry, I would assume that switching materials from Poron to a non-branded polyurethane was more of a cost consideration. There are hordes of producers making a variety of Poron-looking products, mostly at vast cost savings. Not all are as reliable or durable, but those are compromises that some footwear brand managers are willing to make.

    I see this to be a lot like the Gore-Tex business model. Even at the high licensing costs, many manufacturers are unwilling to use a less expensive waterproof membrane just because of the widespread public recognition of the Gore brand. There are certainly other membranes that come at significant savings, both in regards to pricing of the raw material and in the labor costs necessary to maintain license integrity. There are also some materials which possess greater breathability and long term water repellancy, but lack consumer brand recognition. In the end it's up to the producer on what characteristics are most important.

    For me, it's a combination of product consistency, performance integrity, and acquisition cost. Which is why I primarily (and here comes the shameless plug) use Shock Tek materials from Kimmler Products. Just to be clear, I just really like the results I get with their products, and have no financial interest at Kimmler or their cellular polyurethanes.
     
  22. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    That's what I was trying to say - in a poorly worded and far less concise fashion. And instead of pressure reduction, read pressure redistribution ie reduction in surface area contact, increase in pressure
     
  23. Christie

    Christie Member

    It is the same or similar to PPT - we used it interchangeably. I'll leave the technical details to some one else.
     
  24. ssbath

    ssbath Member

    To clarify the Poron v PPT issue. Both are closed cell polyurethanes one manufactured by Rogers Corporation (Poron), the other (PPT) a standard product manufactured by Textile Rubber and Chemical in the USA. PPT is simply a brand name for the standard Textile product - Langer UK have the rights to the PPT trademark in Europe and South Africa. Both products are essentially the same composition.

    Closed Cell PU has been used by the Danish Olympic show jumping team for a number of years in place of the leather often placed under horse shoes.
     
  25. efuller

    efuller MVP

    More like chain mail on a mattress. The question is that is it flexible enough to reduce pressure enough. At the other extreme you have to worry about "bottoming out". What's mefix?

    Eric
     
  26. also known as Fixamull does that help ? or maybe it has another name in the states.
     
  27. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    And what does PPT stand for?

    I was of the belief that it was

    Professional Protection Technology.
     
  28. footdrcb

    footdrcb Active Member

    Take your pick

    Parts Per Trillion Academic & Science » Ocean Science

    PPT Parts Per Thousand Miscellaneous » Unit Measures

    PPT Project Progress Tracking Business » General

    PPT Part Per Trillion Medical » Laboratory

    PPT Plunge Protection Team Business » Stock Exchange

    PPT Plunge Protection Team Governmental » US Government

    PPT Presentation (MS PowerPoint) Computing » File Extensions

    PPT People, Process, And Technology Business » General

    PPT Putnam Premier Income Trust Business » NYSE Symbols

    PPT People Process And Technology Miscellaneous » Unfiled

    PPT Papeete, Tahiti Regional » Airport Codes

    PPT Planning And Placement Team Miscellaneous » Unfiled

    PPT Processing Program Table Computing » General

    PPT Probabilistic Polynomial Time Miscellaneous » Unfiled

    PPT Pink Poogle Toy Miscellaneous » Unfiled

    PPT Program Performance Test Governmental » Military

    PPT Production Prove-Out Test Governmental » Military

    PPT Program Planning Team Miscellaneous » Unfiled

    PPT Prisoner Processing Team Governmental » Police

    PPT People Policy Technology Governmental » US Government

    PPT Protective Pacesetters Toastmasters club Miscellaneous » Toastmasters

    PPT Progressive Power Taper Miscellaneous » Unfiled

    PPT Personal Programming Tutorial Miscellaneous » Unfiled

    PPT Pickett Pettigrew And Trimble Miscellaneous » Unfiled

    PPT Pre-Placement Talk
     
  29. Tkemp

    Tkemp Active Member

    Vinyl can be wiped down with surgical wipes, if you are concerned about exudate from wounds.
    Though a hydrophobic/philic layered secondary dressing on the wound would be my choice.
    :)
     
  30. kdesmet

    kdesmet Welcome New Poster

    Hi,
    It is a legend that Poron would contain nasty substances like mercury. It's just a story the guys from Langer tell to discredit Poron. You can easily check that there are no hazardous components by consulting the MSDS for Poron.
    Kevin
     
  31. kdesmet

    kdesmet Welcome New Poster

    It is recommended by the manufacturer of Poron to always use Poron with a textile cover to avoid abrasion of the material.

    For diabetic purposes, there are Poron grades like Poron Medical SRVS and Poron Medical SRS which perform very well.

    Poron XRD has a completely different purpose. It is not for use in insoles, but rather for protective apparel (extreme sports, safety shoes,...). The material is very soft to the touch but absorbs extreme impacts.
     
  32. kdesmet

    kdesmet Welcome New Poster

    Just a small remark on this one: Poron Urethanes are open cell materials. They are breathable.
     
  33. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    That is what I thought. What are the hygiene implications of that(vs closed cell materials like EVA for example)
     
  34. Really?

    Try putting a bit of 6mm poron on the end of a plastic tube (or loo roll) and breathing through it. When you pass out you might feel different.

    Better yet, stick your tube onto a bit of poron stuck to a bit of polyprop and suck that one.
     
  35. ssbath

    ssbath Member

    What is marketed as PPT in Europe is not a medical grade product. It is a standard closed cell PU, manufactured by Textile Rubber as a carpet backing material ! Rogers do produce an accredited medical grade Poron.
     
  36. ssbath

    ssbath Member

    What you say about Poron as marketed is correct, but it is manufactured as a closed cell product which is then crushed to give it an open cell structure. The "Kangaback" product marketed as PPT is also manufactured as closed cell but never crushed to an open cell structure. Was told that by the manufacturing Director of Textile Rubber Co. who produce the Kangback product sold to Langer then marketed as PPT.
     
  37. kdesmet

    kdesmet Welcome New Poster

    Hi all,
    Some answers on your remarks:
    - breathable or not: there are of course different levels of breathability; you might not survive by the air that comes through if you are surrounded by Poron, but try putting some drops of water on Poron and then blow some air from the other side; you'll see bubbles appear on the water. If a lot of breathability is needed, the material can always be perforated
    - there are no health impacts of open cell vs closed cell
    - the advantage of open cell vs closed cell is that the cells of closed cell materials take a compression set after repeated compressions, where as the Poron material always comes back to the original thickness and therefore has a constant performance over time
    - I have seen the Poron production at Rogers Corporation and I can assure you that it is not made as a closed cell which then is crushed. The material from the beginning has small cells with small openings in it.

    regards
    Kevin
     
  38. jeffreycolemanlopa

    jeffreycolemanlopa Welcome New Poster

    Howdy all,

    I know I am a bit late, a couple years to be exact, but I have some advice and questions on the PORON/PPT battle:

    1. Top covers that are made with anytype of poron/ppt are extremely hard to adhere especially in rigid type FO's. Unfortunately, the ppt is rather "thirsty" for glue and tends to curl your ppt or poron during the drying process, this will 9 times out of 10 cause the material to rip when forming it to the orthotic. When at all possible I try to adhere the PPT top cover to a more durable material such as pelite or microcel puff this allows for the material to be less strained therefore less likely to rip during the covering process. This must be accounted for in the depth of the heel cup 18mm+ to accommodate for the added thickness. Now I know what you are thinking, who on earth would contact skin to PPT? The answer would be no one, covering the PPT/PORON with spenco 1mm black or whatever color your fancy desires has worked very well for our lab. Not to mention most people want to clean FO's with hand cleaner or another sorts of alcohol based liquid/gel that turns a beautiful top cover into a big blue bacon strip.

    2. if any calcaneal, arch relief, prominent structures, charcot deforms, ect is needed when depth problems are an issue I usually skive the ppt for localized placement while still allowing for minimal top cover.

    3. Here is my question, it is extremely difficult to get across to some of the podiatrists how not only PORON/PPT are the literally one in the same but that PPT is not really good at heat forming for accom. fo's; are there other podiatrist suggested materails that I could subsitute that are more heat moldable but still have the same integrity and benefits as PPT without hurting the DPM's feelings after all, I'm just an Orthotist Assistant.

    Anything and everything is welcome!

    Thanks,

    Jeff
     
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