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The Current Position of FHP's in the profession

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by DTT, Aug 30, 2005.

  1. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

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    Hi All

    I have been involved in another site (that supports the introduction of FHP's) and made the point several times on my understanding of the current position which has come from various threads ( many on this site) which is:-

    "FHP's will become an assistant grade practitioner in 2006 enforced by the HPC" and not a "stand alone" practitioner.

    Has anyone (Mark) got any firm ( current) information on the subject please??

    Thank you


  2. Not to my knowledge. But nothing would surprise me anymore, especially where the NHS is concerned. Except poodles.
  3. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Hi Mark

    Hmmmm, then things have changed since the PM you sent me ??

  4. C Bain

    C Bain Active Member

    FHP. - Sub.Forum Perhaps???

    Hi All,

    I cannot see how the HPC. can possibly rank any one as assistant rather than stand alone? I do not believe that doing something like that would be within the parameters and objectives of the HPC. Then again? They tend to except the status quo and then tidy up around the edges, or that group I think just would not become registered! Meant to be just that a stabilizing influence, A Registry!

    None of the private associations in Podiatry can I believe speak with authority at this time without the rest doing their own thing, resulting in the effect of ignoring/neutralizing each other!!! There is no united voice able to speak with authority in the private sector! HPC. is anything but the private sector and it's powers are confined to that which it has been brought into existence to do!

    A possible suggestion made in Misc./help section of the Forum a couple of days ago relates to a Separate Forum for the discussion of this very point since FHP's. can not be considered to be,

    1. Podiatry Assistants? Wishful thinking perhaps!

    2. Chiropodists? A direct offence under the Law!

    3. Or.......What? No they cannot be Or.......What! What are they? Hopefully without any derogatory remarks please!

    A Sub-Forum might just help to clear certain peoples minds on whether the world out there in the UK. has passed them by? Have we some influence over what really is someone else's business, literally perhaps???



    PS. A hard line taken here, "What do you think?"

    PPS. Apologies Admin. but with the Holidays possibly the wrong time to suggest the above. I did wonder whether the Forum was on Autopilot for parts of Monday gone? Then again I definitely [know] that I was on autopilot anyway, (Still am it seems!)!!!

    A Late PPPS. Role I say Roll on "EU.-English" When anything goes Derek! A private joke I think on another Forum run by DavidH.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2005
  5. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Hi Colin

    That is the point of my question.

    I feel these practitioners are in a very grey area at the moment rumours are rife which is causing anguish to many.

    I am just trying to clarify the current position as to the future and remit of this grade.

    It would appear at the moment they are continuing on where the chiropodists left of in the teaching establishments that are training them and are giving the impression they will go out into the world doing chiropody under another name.

    As you said Colin there has been much discussion in various places on the subject and the last conclusion I understood was the HPC were not happy that there rules on protection of the public were being flouted and were going to legislate to control the remit.

    Now things may well have changed since the articles were written or perhaps I am being premature in asking the question but I feel it is very unfair to leave these people in limbo as it were for their future.


  6. C Bain

    C Bain Active Member

    Rumours and yet more Rumours!!!

    Hi Derek,

    Yes and there have been some apparently speaking with authority in other places re. FHP's. who I would suggest had,

    1. Either with wishful thinking or malice! Trying to influence the outcome when they probably know less than us about it!

    2. Well meaning people like Wizard arriving on the scene having attracted about fifty new patients in what was it under three months as an FHP.? Good for him but where does that put the 'Field of Chiropody!' Ignoring the NHS. here Chiropody is seeing the arrival of FHP's practicing in the 'Field of Chiropody' without using the name?!? Is there something wrong with that I wonder?

    3. Finally you are right when you say they and we are in Limbo-land again? Patience could be a virtue here but it is human nature to want to know. A repeat of, "Don't go to them they are not qualified I'M a SRCh.!"
    The patient, "Yes but you will spend the time that it takes to cure my corn, for half the price! Also I don't care whether you are qualified or not, you will do for me!"

    Now where have we heard that one before?

    Quote:- "...........................the HPC. were not happy that their rules on protection of the public were being flouted and were going to legislate to control the remit."


    1. Who told you this? I want to hear it from the horse mouth! He/she with the authority to speak, was this an official of the HPC? Or is it more wishful thinking or scurrilous rumour? It doesn't ring true Derek without the source being HPC. itself, and not the outer circle I want it from the Centre???

    2. Rules flouted, are they? What rules are these? Again sounds like someone spreading rumours again. Where and who is the source???

    3. Legislation to control the remit? What remit, it was a deliberate Government act not to legislate with a Chiropody Act! Has the Government changed it's mind? Will the Government minister responsible please step forward and confess!

    When human nature is left with no answers to the questions it is asking, guess what, it invents some answers to fit what it would like the answers to be. Then it acts as if they are authoritative. The authority concerned usually finds itself sitting at it's desks on Monday morning saying to itself, "This is new to me, I wonder where they got that one from?"



    PS. Derek, I wonder, I wonder where this came from? Then again who cares. If we sit quietly and watch the 'Pigs who do fly! I've seen them do it on TV. you know!!!' It will all come out in the wash!

    PPS. It is just possible that you were told this in confidence! Disregard any challenge which would appear here towards you, not intended! Someone making the bullets elsewhere Perhaps for us to fire!!!
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2005
  7. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Hi Colin

    I just want to ask the question .

    I'm not looking for rights or wrongs I am simply asking for the current situation on FHP's and their proposed roll in the profession ??

    There are so many stories rumours going around and it is causing a lot of distress and anguish to many which I personally don't think is fair so that's why I asked the question for hopefully an update and clarification.

    It is said that the HPC was set up to protect the public by regulation of practitioners.

    That protection would appear to be circumvented by the introduction of FHP's if they are allowed to continue to treat the public under the same terms as "pre HPC".

    You read more sites than I,it is a very well discussed subject , draw your own conclusions ??

    I have and having done so formed an opinion but only that, an opinion, I am looking for clarification to perhaps avert another them and us scenario occurring in the future?.

    As I said before perhaps I am premature in asking the question but it will eventually have to be answered sooner I hope rather than later.


  8. DAVOhorn

    DAVOhorn Well-Known Member

    re FHP's

    Dear All,

    I believe that the reason there is this mess is NOT because of the HPC, who have tried to protect the Public by regulating TITLE, but because of AVARICE on the part of the Commercial Trainers.

    After the HPC came into being, the Commercial Trainers had no role in Training Podiatrists/Chiropodists so INVENTED the NEW Profession/Title of FHP.

    This was purely to circumvent the HPC authority and the legislation introduced to protect the public.

    There was in my opinion no altruistic motive to train those poor soles who for a variety of reasons would or could not go to University to train via the HPC validated way.

    It was to ensure the financial viability of institutions to continue to sell training that was not acceptable for HPC reg.

    This has done a great disservice to all of us who are in practice with HPC registration in our Profession of Podiatry/Chiropody.

    Those who were not eligible for CPSM and who have achieved HPC reg via grandparenting are now as equally disadvantaged as those who were previously CPSM reg.

    So what now?

    After FHP reg what do the Commercial Trainers do?

    Come up with another name in order to continue to trade Profitably in the business os selling training.

    regards David

    The above are my opinions on the current status of this mess.
  9. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Hi David

    Yes that said and taken on board BUT

    Where do the FHP's stand now in the profession ??

    They are still being trained and coming out into the world of footcare.

    Are they to carry on as chiropodists under another name or are they to have their scope of practice limited by the HPC??

    That is the question I am looking to be answered


  10. Derek et al.,

    The HPC are duty bound to regulate new or emerging professions. They do not, I would suspect, see fhps as a "new" profession, rather they may take the view that these people are being brought into a regulated health market by organisations who have circumvented the current legislation for their own commercial gain. I believe SMAE and others made a fundamental mistake by not opening their doors and courses to HPC scrutiny three years ago. There was nothing to stop them, or any other educational/vocational establishment from hosting podiatry courses providing they met the quality assurance standards laid down by government, but they decided not to - instead they continued as usual, taking advantage of a loophole in badly drafted legislation. Not the best way to endear yourself to the establishment or your peers, and in my opinion, very unfair to the people who pay to take these courses - the unsuspecting public.

    Do you think SMAE or the Alliance advise prospective students on the uncertainties facing them in the workforce? I agree it is regretable if someone does a course only to find that at some point in the [near] future their certification is meaningless. I'm not sure what ethical standards SMAE operate to but my experience of the West Midlands School in Blackheath has not been positive. I refer you to previous submissions on this subject.


    Whilst there is a need for podiatry assistants - just like dental and medical assistants - having an educational free-for-all is not the best way to plan and structure your profession for the years ahead. How would you feel now Derek, as a HPC podiatrist, towards a youngster who has undertaken a three week course in footcare (or maybe no course at all) and is calling themselves a FHP - soon to be grandparented HPC Podiatrist? Do you feel that this devalues your standing? Would you have concerns over their ability and training - from the standpoint of your patients? Would you consider this continual cycle of emerging practitioners under a variety of names and guises and qualifications, none of which are regulated or recognised, good for your profession or for the public?

    Sometimes it's only when you cross the fence that you notice the view is different. I hold no malicious or vexatious opinions against anyone, but I'm sure by now you might share some of the concerns regarding the whole grandparenting process, especially if it wasn't the last. Thankfully, the government and the HPC are taking steps to "bolt the door" so this doesn't happen again.

    What will happen to the FHPs already in practice or in training? Don't know - but I think they could very well have a good basis of a claim against the various institutions who sold the courses in the first place.


  11. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Hi Mark

    Thank you for that.

    Thats what I was referring to.

    I do not want to get embroiled in the rights and wrongs I just wanted informed comment as to the current thinking /position on FHP's.

    With relation to how do I feel being an HPC pod ??

    I just think it unfair for these people to be put in a position which at the end of the day may be modified /abolished . Just unfair.

    I think the HPC have no alternative to apply restrictions as it is the HPC's credibility that is at stake because their regulation has been circumvented and perhaps this is the first chance to flex their muscles ??

    If they don't what was the point of regulation in the first place ??


  12. C Bain

    C Bain Active Member

    Crying Wolf Yet Again Are We!

    Hi All,

    In THE LAW of this Country it is the duty of the Citizen to obey and comply with it! If your old fashioned you were also taught to comply with the SPIRIT of the LAW as well? It was your Ethical Duty! I would like to do my ethical duty, that is if someone will please tell me what it is!!!

    I am confronted with "CHIROPODIST," as a protected Title! "CHIROPODY," is not!

    What I now hear is that CHIROPODY is to be hedged around by the defining use of, "A Restriction of usage and actions clause or the like??? Is this within the definition of CHIROPODIST? Or are they going to make it up as they go along, BY THE WAY WHO ARE THEY? Let's move those goal posts as well and redefine what we are? And we all know what some of us are!!!

    And they are going to use LEGISLATION? Now I wonder what that means,

    1. Another Order in Council.

    2. Statutory Instruments, (Within the present Order in Council, and it's Spirit perhaps?).

    3. A New Act of Parliament. (Now there's a thought for you! That should take two years at least to draft properly, Green and white papers etc., etc., etc.?)!

    You know what they say about Murphy's Law! "When the wheel comes off it stays off!"

    Or could this be more wishful thinking on someones part, making it appear to us the foot-soldiers, it is really, really 'REALITY AFTER ALL!'

    By the time we get to the truth, Crying Wolf so many times will mean that, "'The Big Bad Wolf Will Be Upon Us and Had Us For Tea!'"


    Colin. (Hows that for a morale boosting call to be Happy in Podiatry? I'm glad I'm a Chiropodist!!!)

    PS. Or possibly could it be that legislation twice removed, that of the CHRE. legislation might be used as the base of the changes?
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2005
  13. C Bain

    C Bain Active Member

    Last edited: Sep 1, 2005
  14. C Bain

    C Bain Active Member

    A PS. to the HPC. and what it stands for!

    Hi All,

    I think at least from my point of view we have ventilated this subject as well as could be expected at this point in 'no-mans-land!'

    I would ask everyone to bear in mind the following, however!

    The main objective of the Council in exercising its functions shall be to safeguard the health and well-being of persons using or needing the services of registrants. [Article 3.(4). of the Draft Statutory Instruments Health Professions Order 2001. Sec.62(9), Health Act 1999.]. [Not necessarily the health and well being of Registrants you might well note!].

    If FHP's. do not contravene Art.3(4) above. This refers to the Protected Titles CHIROPODIST/PODIATRIST and they are not a registered group or profession within the Register of the HPC. The body (The HPC.), cannot enforce it's other functions! Because they are not a group of registered health professionals?

    The principal functions of the Council shall be to establish from time to time standards of,

    1. Education.

    2. Training.

    3. Conduct.

    4. Performance.
    For members of the relevant professions and to ensure the maintenance of those standards. [Art. 3(2). of the H.P.O.2001, Sec.62(9), Health Act 1999].

    I submit that the HPC. has only three courses of action,

    1. Register willing health workers (FHP's.) who apply for registration, possibly enblock? Then it can apply it's other functions to control them!

    1). A new Register for FHP's. who are not Chiropodists or Podiatrists!

    2). Register them in a supplementary part of the Chiropodists/Podiatrists Register!

    3). Pass new legislation to prevent them practicing? (Fraught with snares and pitfalls I think here???).

    2. Prosecute for the offence of infringing the Protected Titles by virtue of their, (The FHP's.), very existence? (This one will need a very good Barrister I suspect!)?

    3. Do nothing if no offences have been committed under it's present mandate, legislation. (No matter how unpopular this is amongst our rank and file.)!

    Anything else would be a travesty of natural justice I think! It's not new it happened in 1960 for the very same reason. No closed profession???


    Colin. (And I think that this is me out of here!!!).
  15. C Bain

    C Bain Active Member

    Specialists and and ? Routinist!!!!!!

    Hi All,

    Get yourself over to a new arrival on FHP's and the HPC. Thread!!!!

    The pack of cards has just been blown away!



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