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Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Griff, Dec 30, 2011.

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  1. Griff

    Griff Administrator

  2. The hysterical uninformed mass media giveth, and the hysterical uninformed mass media taketh away.

    Blessed be the hysterical mass media.

    The real fun is that given the whole barefoot thing is based on less is more, vibram will struggle to come up with what their shoes have that the cheap version does not!

    Anyone want to take a bet with me that vibram will, in 2012, bring out a new version of their shoe with something extra? Something like a heel cushion, thicker, or thinner sole etc?
     
  3. Mark B Reyneker

    Mark B Reyneker Welcome New Poster

    Hi Robert

    I'm betting a sixth toe will be added.

    Anyway, I'm glad vibram's made a debut because it certainly did shake up the larger running shoe companies. To the extent that they have added more categories of shoes outside of neutral to motion control. The more categories, the closer running shoe companies get to creating something for everyone.

    Marketing angle:"6th toe provides more stability for the more 'natural' forefoot strike and creates excellent propulsion"

    Let's see
     
  4. "the hillbilly shoe. Great for going for a run with your wife/ cousin. Designed for intoe-era and inbreeders"

    A recent study showed that people with six toes per foot have a wider forefoot, meaning a greater contact with the ground. This increase in exteroceptive feedback. Since people with decreased exteroceptive feedback (sensory neuropathy) have an increased risk of plantar injury, the injury reduction mechanism of the hillbilly shoetm is well based in research.

    I like it. It has possibilities.
     
  5. Robert:

    Informed sources told me in the summer of 2011 that Vibram had already cushioned the heel of a few of their fivefinger products but didn't tell anyone about it, in the fear that some minimalist nutcases wouldn't like the shoe if it had more cushion.
     
  6. It'll go down a storm with the pointy headed, chewing gum feet breed who live over the bridge, once they've discovered shoes that is.
     

  7. Ha!

    Gasp in superstitious awe at the uncanny accuracy of my prognosticative powers.
     
  8. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    You could be in competition with Guru Bob soon!
     
  9. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Just look at the Vibram website, there is no mystery or secret about what they are doing. For each model currently marketed, the site provides to anyone who cares to read, what the uppers, footbed, midsole and outsole are made of, the thickness of the sole and the weight of the shoe.

    Vibram started with the "Classic" in 2006, they added some lighter models for indoor use only but seem to have been discontinued. The trend has been to add more upper material, more rugged soles and a little more cushion and more weight. In spite of this trend, Vibrams still meet their intended purpose to provide freedom and sensation to the foot while protecting it from the surface of the ground.

    Nothing complicated, really. Some people prefer gloves over mittens, that's all.

    Dana
     
  10. As shoes designed for dinghy sailing.

    P.S. the vivo barefoot shoes were in the clearance section in TK Maxx over Christmas, down to £20, it seems even at these knock down prices no-one is buying them, at least not in Plymouth.
     
  11. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Happy New Year Simon!

    Sorry, should have been more clear, in addition to running, these shoes are marketed for water sports as well as fitness, yoga/pilates, after sport, trekking and traveling. I incorrectly jumped to running because Vibram has sold millions and millions of pairs of these shoes specifically for running. Regardless of the sport, the intended purpose remains the same: to provide freedom and sensation to the foot while protecting it from the surface.

    Do you understand the TK Maxx business model? I'm assuming TK Maxx in the UK is similar to TJ Maxx or Marshals in the US.

    Dana
     
  12. Yes, they buy over-stock, that is when the company has manufactured more stock than they can sell and are forced to sell it off at a discounted price (if the manufacturer could have sold them to other retail companies at their full price they would have, yet in this case the supply clearly exceeded the demand). Thus, the said company manufactured more shoes than they could sell, TK Maxx bought up the over-stock barefoot running shoes at a discounted price since the manufacturer could not shift them at their full price. Now, TK Maxx can't shift them either at their already discounted price and have put them in their clearance section at an even more discounted price, where they were still sitting when I looked at the weekend. Viz. no-one wants them.

    Funny thing is fashion: one minute it's in, the next its out... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d0_hBedcAo&feature=related beep, beep...

    Question: Vibram five fingers were developed for dinghy sailing- are they any good for dinghy sailing?
     
  13. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Just need to add one thing. Companies often intentionally manufacture more than they can sell through traditional channels to take advantage of economies of scale/quantity discounts. Companies will look at stores like TK Maxx as a means to supplement their sales volume. It is not an after thought but a part of the manufacturing and sales plan from the beginning. Shoes will typically hit the clearance section of a given retailer once the retailer has limited sizes and rather than investing in replenishing the inventory of a given model, they will invest in the inventory of a new model.

    I'm not sure what any of this has to do with podiatry.

    Dana
     
  14. Do they now? Does the company you work for - IBM (you still work at IBM- right?) intentionally manufacture more than they can sell, so they can sell off their stock to the likes of TK Maxx? Also it should be added that such retail companies will buy up stock from companies which have gone bankrupt.

    I'm not sure what you have to do with podiatry, Dana- but there you go.
     
  15. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, you are better off not trying to pretend that you know something about this. You really don't know why a certain model of Terra Plana Vivo Barefoot shoes hit the shelves of T.K. Maxx.

    I'll waste some time explaining why, not for your benefit but for my own satisfaction.

    Terra Plana, was small British wholesale shoe company formed in 1989 that developed Vivobarefoot in 2003. Shortly after in 2004, Ajoy Sahu from Prada joined Terra Plana and came out with a women's collection of shoes. In 2005, Terra Plana came out with it's second brand "worn again" made of recycled materials. That is essentially Terra Plana's history in it's entirety, a two brand shoe company.

    On October 24th, Galahad Clark, the managing director of VIVOBAREFOOT announced that Terra Plana and Vivobarefoot are going their separate ways. With this announcement, the Terra Plana Vivobarefoot shoe essentially became defunct. Terra Plana is currently reorganizing while Vivobarefoot is still surviving at the moment. Who knows if Terra Plana will even survive it's reorganization.

    I am not going to speculate how Terra Plana Vivobarefoot shoes hit the shelves of TK Max but would suspect that the fact that the company that made the shoe no longer exists might have something to do with it and that there will not be any more shoes labeled Terra Plana Vivobarefoot going forward. A shoe that ceases to be manufactured by definition becomes closed out.

    In this case, history is really the best predictor, not what is being sold on the shelves of TK Max. History tells us that small niche companies that are riding a trend in general do not last in their current form. Terra Plana is no different.

    As far as I know, VIVOBAREBOOT also may not last long as it's own entity. I would be willing to speculate that with time, they will be bought by one of the bigger shoe companies or possibly just dissolve. In either case, you again may see shoes made by the independent VIVOBAREFOOT hit the shelves of TK Maxx before the models are named something like Adidas Vivobarefoot or simply go away forever.

    Did the sales picture have anything to do with the split for VIVOBAREFOOT from Terra Plana? Maybe. This is just the natural sorting out process that goes on in business all of the time. A trend occurs, the market gets flooded from every direction, ultimately the consumer votes for what shoes will survive through their purchasing dollars. This of course is influenced heavily by marketing. It is difficult for a tiny company like Terra Plana to compete with the marketing giants regardless of the product they have.

    Does the demise of Terra Plana VIVOBAREFOOT spell the end of the minimal shoe movement? I doubt it, it just leaves more room for the big companies to broaden their reach.


    Dana
     
  16. Lighter than barefoot shoes for indoor use.

    That's socks isn't it?
     
  17. Didn't I just say all that **** in one sentence?
    Now, if you'd only stop trying to pretend that you know anything about podiatry and moreover, about me and my knowledge we might get somewhere. And especially stop trying to pretend that you have some rationale for writing on podiatry arena, a site designated for podiatrists and other foot health professionals, since you are neither. That way we'd all have a much happier 2012. Here's the news for you Dana- barefoot running never took off in the UK, end of story. You can count the number of people who are still interested in this over here on about a hand and a half. The reason the shoes are being sold off cheap is because no-one wants them here- end of story. If the company had been successful, it wouldn't be falling apart. It's funny how that obviously irks you so. And how hard you'll try to support the manufacturers of these shoes, you make me smile.


    You still rotating your shoes and wearing supportive shoes on some days? I'm not really interested, merely taking the piss.

    p.s. could you put that caveat back on to the bottom of your posts again stating that you are not medically trained in any way shape or form, nor have any medical experience, since I wouldn't want anyone confusing you for a health professional. Rather, if you could give your full job title at ibm... Two sugars please, love.

    Here's looking forward to a 2012 with less and less barefoot running zealots finding their way onto podiatry arena, a site for discussions between podiatrists and other foot health care practitioners. The clue is in the name, Dana.
     
  18. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Not even close but you wouldn't know that.

    I never had to pretend, you do a great job demonstrating what you don't know. In the mean time, I certainly have learned plenty about some people on this forum who consider themselves podiatrists.


    Sorry, I admit that a weakness I have is that I can't help myself from responding to a bunch of crap when I see it. Unfortunately for me, it has proven to be a big waste of my time. My loss not your's.

    I'm not a barefoot runner, never have been and probably never will be. I could care less about barefoot running because I find it impractical. I also don't see it as something that took off in the US so I suspect you are right about it's lack of popularity in the UK.

    I could care less about the lack of success of some miniscule English shoe company. I'm not supporting this manufacturer, I've never bought any of their shoes and never intended to. I used them because it was the company's shoes who you had a flawed assumption about. As far as I'm concerned, I expect the bulk if not all of the niche minimal shoe companies to crash and burn. The big shoe companies as always will simply provide the market with their version of a certain shoe category as always.

    Simon, I'm not sure what a barefoot running zealot is. Since I don't run barefoot, you must not be talking about me so good luck with that.

    In any case, I'll let you get back to treating toe fungus and continue your banter of misinformation, misinterpretation, misunderstanding and plain clueless discussion with your colleagues on subjects that really don't have much to do with podiatry. That's OK, since you are a podiatrist, that qualifies you as an expert in everything.

    Have a great 2012 living in oblivion. While I think it is unlikely, I hope you figure it out some day.

    Here's looking forward to a 2012 that see's Simon with a smile once or twice. In the mean time, I'm done with you, it's not doing either of us any good. Have a happy life Simon, it's too short for anything less and unfortunate if you are not capable of that.

    Dana
     
  19. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    More like ballet slippers with toes. It's again the glove vs mitten option. Neither are intended for outdoor use due to limited durability. Rather the intent was more for floor exercises such as Yoga, Pilates, dance, etc.

    Dana
     
  20. Here you go Rob, two pairs for £7.50 although I think I've seen 'em cheaper down the market-
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B005THOQ...de=asn&creative=22218&creativeASIN=B005THOQC2

    It's all about gloves versus mittens.
     
  21. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    With respect to running shoes, there is a continuum ranging from shoes that provide almost nothing other than some minor protection to the foot from the running surface up to very substantial shoes that provide a considerable amount of support, protection and cushion. As you move along the continuum, there is a trade off with weight which ranges from a few once's at the low end up to 16 oz's and over per shoe at the high end. There is a balance between weight and the "help" the shoe provides. Depending on the physical and mechanical requirements of the runner combined with the type of intended running will determine where along the continuum the runner will find the shoe that best meets his/her needs.

    There has been so much argument/debate/discussion about the merits and faults of various shoes on this forum that I find misguided and unnecessary. What is important is that a given runner who has an intended use of a given shoe, find the shoe along the continuum that best fits his needs.

    I know I am simplifying this for the point of illustration that many qualities of shoes overlap depending on the various models from a single manufacturer combined with the many models from many manufacturers. The runner has 100's of models of shoes to choose from and not only needs to select the shoe that best fits his function and weight requirements but it also must best fit the actual shape of his foot as determined by the last that the shoe is built on.

    To argue one type or category of shoe is better than another is pointless. To argue that wearing no shoes vs some type or category of shoe also is pointless.

    No I'm not a podiatrist, a medical professional or a foot health care professional so from your perspective, what am I missing? Can someone fill me in? Basic common sense should tell us what shoe option is best for a specific runner and his specific needs.

    None of this seems like rocket surgery to me, from a podiatrist's point of view, why is there so much concern about the shoes that fall on the low end of the continuum? I know the claims make the shoes out to be the holy grail of running but forget about the claims, what about the shoes themselves?

    I would think that all of this energy spent on debate would be better served spending it on developing an insightful way to guide the inexperienced runner toward a shoe that works best for them.

    People have wondered what my agenda is on this forum. I personally own my own continuum of running shoes. I simply wear the shoe that I believe best fits my requirements for a given run. Since the type of running I do changes, so do my shoes. When I see health care professionals attacking certain types, models, categories of running shoes, given the field they are in makes my jaw drop and it is the reason I am so contentious. This also applies to the various aspects of running form.

    It really is pretty odd that as a non healthcare professional I am so bothered by many of the statements made by those who claim to be healthcare professionals and podiatrists on this forum. My agenda is that I simply can't sit back and listen to misguided and inaccurate statements made by professionals who people go to for advise and opinion.

    What I find interesting is that I came to the Podiatry Arena to learn but what I've learned is far from what I expected. But since I have learned, it is all good from my perspective.

    Dana
     
  22. A solid knowledge and understanding of research methodology.

    A solid knowledge and understanding of the principles of EBM.

    Experience of seeing thousands of people, with thousands of injuries and pathologies over a period of decades.

    A broader knowledge of anatomy, pathology and physiology beyond your particular area of private study.

    Clinical mentors who you respect enough to believe them when they tell you you are wrong, and more importantly, to highlight those areas you DON'T know.

    Access to a variety of research material and the background knowledge to understand what you are reading.

    Experience of seeing clinical theories dissected.

    I could continue, but the wife is almost off the phone and I'm half way through treasure island.
     
  23. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Robert, you missed one, the ability to read. When I asked the question, by stating I am not a podiatrist or a medical professional I meant exactly what I wrote, that I am not a professional in the areas you pointed out. Got it?

    When I asked what am I missing? It was in reference to what I was specifically writing about which had to do with why do many on this forum engage in a debate about one classification of shoe over another and why there is so much concern about "minimal" shoes? Got it?

    *** edit by Mod ****


    Dana
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2012
  24. Dana if you do not think the arena is professional and you feel the need to throw around insults why do you post ?

    If you do not think people provide you with anything then maybe do not post.

    People please keep personal attacks out of the discussion before another thread gets shut down.

    Robert hopefully you can be the bigger man if you have read Dana post
     
  25. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Sorry Mike, it won't happen again.

    Dana
     
  26. You know me mike. Big huge hearted guy me ;). Affable like.
    It would seem I missed two then. The other being your ability to clearly express yourself. What you said was
    I answered exactly the question asked. You stated you're not a podiatrist and asked SO (infering reference to you first statement ) what you were missing. I answered.

    If you meant

    Then you should have said

    Have a great day doing whatever you do.
     
  27. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member


    Robert, thanks, you too.

    Can you list a single credible reference that includes scientific evidence that supports, demonstrates or concludes that a healthy, experienced runner should NOT incorporate the use of Vibram Fivefingers as part of their routine training?

    Thank you

    Dana
     
  28. Aw sheesh, I've been trying to avoid actual the debate.

    No.

    Can you list a single credible reference that includes scientific evidence that supports, demonstrates or concludes that a healthy, experiences runner should NOT place a marble in their sock to separate their first and second toes as part of their training?

    No.

    Can you list a single credible reference that includes scientific evidence that supports, demonstrates or concludes that a healthy, experiences runner should NOT run with an acupuncture needle stuck in their calf?

    I doubt it.

    Remember when I said that what you were missing was an understanding of how research methodology and EBM works? Asking for evidence that something is NOT a good thing is generally irrelevant. It can't be done that way.

    This sort of question is what P****s people off about lay people posting on a professional forum. People playing at science without knowing how it works.
     
  29. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_analysis ;)

    Here's a way of looking at it. Take some mz twins, give half of them clown shoes to run in and the other half shoes that were designed for running in as oppose to dinghy sailing, give both groups identical training programmes within the lab, identical diets etc (in fact keep 'em all in the lab like... well... lab rats). Count the injury rates in the two groups over time.

    Something like that. It's not ideal, but it's probably as close as you'd get without joining the Nazi party, or going to Sweden.
     
  30. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Robert, OK. I fully expected you to answer no. I already know that there is no one on this forum that has any grounds to base their negativity towards the very existence of Vibram Fivefingers or the use of them for running. Yet for years, all I've seen is unsupported negativity repeated over and over from many of the more vocal "professionals" on this "professional" forum.

    What p****s me off about "professional" people posting on a "professional" forum is that they have unsupported opinions who SHOULD know how science works and should know better.

    Every time I read negative comments about Vibram Fivefingers or any shoe currently marketed as a minimal shoe, it simply wipes out any credibility they might think they have as a professional. They are not any better than any lay person they accuse of incorrectly interpreting science because they are just as guilty.

    Hopefully I have been simple enough and clear enough for you to understand what I've written.

    Dana
     
  31. Nice.


    It's the shear arrogance of non-professionals like Dana and Sicknote who find their way to this site and insult the intelligence of the professionals who write here that I find so distasteful. Personally, rather than listen to an amateur jogger who writes on a blog site, I'd rather take histories from injuried patients and review the trends within them; I'd prefer to read reports from other professional colleagues and from peer reviewed journals to form my opinions. Like this one, for example:
    Barefoot-simulating Footwear Associated With Metatarsal Stress Injury in 2 Runners.

    Giuliani J, Masini B, Alitz C, Owens BD.
    Orthopedics. 2011 Jul 7;34(7):e320-3. doi: 10.3928/01477447-20110526-25.
    Quote:
    Stress-related changes and fractures in the foot are frequent in runners. However, the causative factors, including anatomic and kinematic variables, are not well defined. Footwear choice has also been implicated in contributing to injury patterns with changes in force transmission and gait analyses reported in the biomechanical literature. Despite the benefits of footwear, there has been increased interest among the running community in barefoot running with proposed benefits including a decreased rate of injury. We report 2 cases of metatarsal stress fracture in experienced runners whose only regimen change was the adoption of barefoot-simulating footwear. One was a 19-year-old runner who developed a second metatarsal stress reaction along the entire diaphysis. The second case was a 35-year-old ultra-marathon runner who developed a fracture in the second metatarsal diaphysis after 6 weeks of use of the same footwear. While both stress injuries healed without long-term effects, these injuries are alarming in that they occurred in experienced male runners without any other risk factors for stress injury to bone. The suspected cause for stress injury in these 2 patients is the change to barefoot-simulating footwear. Runners using these shoes should be cautioned on the potential need for gait alterations from a heel-strike to a midfoot-striking pattern, as well as cautioned on the symptoms of stress injury.


    Moreover, we are now accused of bias by this amateur jogger who found his way onto a site designated "for discussion by podiatrists and other foot health professionals about all aspects of podiatry". And has been allowed to write here, despite the fact that he is neither a podiatrist, researcher, nor foot health professional. He's an amateur runner who works for IBM (allegedly). Did anyone read the Lieberman study? No potential for bias there from the man who's research is sponsored by Vibram....
     
  32. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, your example has a sample size of 2. hmmmmm.

    Dana Roueche, Jan 5, 2012
    NMP (Non-Medical-Professional)
    Quote:
    Using a sample size of 1 less than the Giuliani, Masini, Alitz, Owens findings, the runner was a 54 year old male who ran 7,300 miles over the course of 2 yrs. I report no case of metatarsal stress fractures or any sort of injury what so ever but do report an improvement in posted marathon and ultra marathon times over the course of the 2 yr time period. The only regimen change was the adoption of barefoot-simulating footware worn for 78% of the mileage completed in the 2 yr period. The suspected cause of the improvement in performance with a complete lack of injury is the change to barefoot-simulating footware.


    Simon, if you are hanging your hat on the example you provided, my only response is Holy Cow!

    The only reason I have hung around this forum is because I frankly can't get over what I read here. My professional background, experience, undergraduate and graduate degrees would never allow me to generalize about a group of people from a small sample. I will not and can not generalize about people in the Podiatry Profession based on the writing from a small sample of people on this forum that consider themselves Podiatry professionals.

    I continue to read and write here with the expectation that a podiatry professional will join and contribute to this forum in a fashion that will shed a more positive light on the podiatry profession in general.

    Given the nature of what I do for my past-time and in spite of it being 40 yrs without an injury, it is inevitable that I will some day become injured and need the help of a medical professional. Based on what I've read on this forum over the past two years, I am convinced that anything short of going to a surgeon to have my feet amputated means that I am out of luck.

    Dana
     
  33. And that exemplifies my case in point. We do not hang our hats on sample sizes of 1, 2 or two hundred, we look at the evidence base from the anecdotal to the controlled trial and we critique it- hence we look at the Lieberman study and wonder how it ever got published; hence we read what you have to say and see it for what it is- the views of an untrained amateur jogger who for some reason feels the need to keep writing on a professional forum which he has no justification to be writing upon and has now taken to insulting the professionals who validly write their opinions there; we look at our patients on a daily basis and make informed decisions as skilled and learned practitioners who have trained, passed examinations and continue to have to justify our abilities to our professional body's in order to remain upon their registers. Some of us actively engage in research and publication; some of us act as professional reviewers for the very peer reviewed articles in which scientific articles regarding lower extremity biomechanics are published; some of us are invited to speak around the world on the biomechanics of running. You Dana, are just a single amateur runner. You've given us your case report. We heard it (the first time) we even thanked you for it (then). But we don't need to keep hearing it, over and over. Frankly, I've heard it too many times now and would rather not have to hear it again. You certainly don't appear to have anything else to say. Not withstanding, a report of two runners published by medics in a peer reviewed professional journal still trumps anything you can ever tell me about yourself, Dana. Do you know how many runner patients my colleagues and I see as a collective during the course of any week, month or year? You have no idea, nor do I- but it's more than the world according to Dana, that I do know. So, today I heard a selection of case reports from runners just like you. You are not something special. Yet still you presume that your opinion is as valid as the opinion of a practitioner with say twenty years of clinical experience who is seeing in excess of a hundred patients per week. That your opinion is more important than someone who works in research and development for a major running shoe manufacturer; that your opinion is more important than the guys in the local running shop etc etc.

    What are you missing Dana? Pretty much everything that excludes you. The podiatry profession doesn't even know who you are, nor cares. Moreover, you clearly know nothing about the podiatry profession, yet you see fit to attempt a carte blanche attack of it. How naive.

    Given the nature of what you do? You work for IBM and run in your spare time. I've been running for nearly 40 years and never had a running related injury. Like I said, you're nothing special and the sooner you get that into your head, the better. I have nothing against vibram five fingers...
     
  34. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    So why the negativity about Vibram Fivefingers and other other shoes marketed as minimal running shoes?

    Dana
     
  35. Is it negativity or just critical appraisal in light of exaggerated marketing claims and flawed research? That and the fact that over the past twelve months there have been no-end of barefoot /minimalist running zealots who don't know their arse from their elbow coming on here trying to tell us our own jobs. Just guessing. So, the perceived negativity is actually often just naive people having their flawed premises and ideals shot down by science and individuals who actually know more about the subject than they do. They think they know what they are talking about, but due to lack of professional training and knowledge base, their understanding is found wanting.

    While I have nothing against Vibram five fingers , I am equally under no disillusion that they are somehow the secret to the end of injuries among runners. No, I have nothing against vibram five fingers, its generally the kind of people who seem to want to wear them that put my back up. No, that's not fair. It's the people who want to wear them and then who feel the need to write on websites about wearing them in the hope that other people might wear them too. That and the marketing extrapolation of the "research" which is paid for by the manufacturers and is as weak as a bag of weakness. Today, I wore a pair of Nike dunk low, I didn't feel the need to go onto a website and extol their virtues in the hope that everyone would tomorrow be wearing Nike dunk low to perform podiatry in. What is wrong with such people that their lives are so vacuous that they want to write on a blogsite of a profession that has nothing to do with their own chosen profession to tell people what trainers they wear when jogging? Moreover to try to convert others to wearing said training shoe? Weird with a capital We. Only to be out weirded by people who want to write on a professional site about said trainers, but lack enough self esteem to actually use their given name. Christ help us.

    Actually that's not true, I do have something against vibram five fingers- they are as ugly as sin and make the wearer look like a clown.
     
  36. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, when the next example of blatant negativity that I see as lack of professionalism not critical appraisal surfaces on this forum, I will directly point it out to you. I won't be waiting long.

    When I stumbled upon this forum over 2 yrs ago, I pretty much ran in traditional running shoes. I was far from what I would consider a barefoot/minimal running zealot. Frankly I was appalled by what I was reading here so I decided to try Vibrams and a long list of minimal running shoes that subsequently came to market to see what all of the stink the "professionals" on this forum were having about them. I quickly learned that the negative claims here were simply unsupported, anecdotal, emotional arm waving in response to the barefoot/minimalist running zealots.

    I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks about minimalist shoes. I find it a laugh that there can be so much animosity without the science to support it.

    Dana
     
  37. Precisely what claims have been made about them here, Dana? Lets examine your conjecture, if we must. List the so called negative claims and link to the posts where such claims might have been made. Lets examine the evidence....
     
  38. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Sure, since you gave a poor example of a 2 subject article on stress fractures, let's use that. How many times have you read on this forum about the "metatarsal stress fracture epidemic" caused by Vibram Fivefingers? The statement, opinion, conjecture is based on nothing more than anecdotal observation and speculation. There is absolutely NO supporting science or evidence behind it. Kevin Kirby started a whole, long winded thread about it that went on forever. With that claim, there has been no indication of the experience or skill level of the runners with the stress fractures, the nature of the training, pre-existing conditions, age, sex, diet, history, nature of use or mis-use of the shoes, intelligence of the runner, etc. There is also no consideration of the fact that over the past 6 or 7 yrs the number of runners has completely exploded. The running boom of the 70's is a pimple compared to what has gone on in the 2000's. Just the sheer increase in numbers is going to result in an explosion of common running injuries regardless of shoes.

    Dana
     
  39. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    I'm not arguing that there isn't a connection between VFF and stress fractures but I would never make that leap without concrete supporting evidence. I also know as an experienced runner that injuries like metatarsal stress fractures are easily preventable regardless of shoes. For some individuals, if they are not easily preventable, the shoes probably aren't going to matter.

    Dana
     
  40. Rob Kidd

    Rob Kidd Well-Known Member

    I have not entered this debate at all for several reasons. Firstly and mainly is that I am 100% disinterested in running. However, I am beginning to note that it is getting personal - never a good thing. I have noted several really quite marked criticisms of Dan Leiberman's work from persons with an academic background that doesn't come withing cooee of his. Please, all stop and take pause. Dan is a Professor at Harvard; last time I heard they were not appointing at any level, never mind at professorial level, podiatrically qualified persons, with or without a PhD. He is publishing in Nature, among others. I suspect that no one here has referreed for Nature - including myself. Rob
     
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