Woolwich "terror" attack.

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May of you will have seen the horrifying pictures on the news of the Murder of the Man in woolwich and the vile person who did it spouting off his message afterward.

A distressing thing to be sure. But If I may draw your attention to something positive.

Rather than watching the bloke with blood all over him, consider the actions of the passers by. There are those, of course, filming it all on their phones. There are those who went to try to help the victim. There was even a woman (a scout leader apparently) who approached the guy and asked him for his knives before he did anything else stupid.

And my favourite of all, the woman in the blue dress.

On one of the films you can clearly see her bustle through the crowd with her little shopping trolley and walk towards and then past the guy who is covered in blood, waving a knife, and telling the onlookers they will never be safe.

She does not so much as step off the pavement to avoid the guy, much less cross the road, or take a different route home. She sails serenely by, like a pike in a trout pond. He even steps aside to let her pass.

Now here is the thing. The government (and the media) are calling it a terrorist attack. Terror seems to have been the goal of the threats the man made in his little speech and the obvious courtship of media attention. Terrorism works by creating disproportionate fear, to gain a cause more prestige than it deserves by trying to make people live differently. But terror requires its victims to co-operate, to act and feel in a way that fits with the narrative.

How terrified did those londoners look? Not very. If we judge the effectiveness of this gruesome crime by what they were trying to achieve by it, on this showing they failed epically. Went out to scare a nation and mid blood soaked diatribe, at the apex of his PR effort, he, failed to sufficiently intimidate a lady out with her shopping enough to get her to change her route home or cross the street.

Cos We're English. And this is how we roll.

I'm quite proud of that.

 

The charity 'Help for Heroes' has been inundated with orders for their T shirts, similar to that the victim was wearing. Right thinking English followers of Islam have been queuing up to dissociate themselves from the actions of the perpetrators.

The messages are 'it won't work here', and, if you follow the Qu'ran (I'm told by scholars) 'you are NOT going to paradise'.

I too am quietly proud.

Bill

 

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Young muslim men collecting flowers in Birmingham City Centre for Drummer Lee Rigby who was murdered in Woolwich, London. (Image: Rashid @rockingtheshow)

 

I live in Doncaster, South Yorkshire. I have, without exception, met only views of open hatred for the Muslim community following this recent murder.

This hatred frightens me far more than the attack itself.

The gutter press do further damage by pouring further fuel on the current wave of ignorance.

I feel it only right to defend a community who also despise the wrong doing to this man & his family. My thoughts locally are unpopular. I feel saddened that this wave of hatred is not just a local issue but global.

I feel very afraid for any community who identifies an enemy as a culture or religion & not the actions of crazed individuals in the guise of a higher power.

 

If each of the monotheistic religions edited their holy books, to remove or clarify the meaning of the religious texts that are used to justify this and other violent responses to 'others', it would prevent their holy texts being used as justification for terrorism.

Why haven't the extreme passages in the 'holy' texts been edited already?

 

I disagree.

Edit religious texts to sanitise them, and we would still have extremists carrying out atrocities.
Witness the dreadful acts of hardline followers of National Socialism, and Communism, in the 1930's and 40's. Hard-line Communists of course, and this was not, of course, exclusive to them, continued to commit crimes against mankind in the 50"s and early 60's.

I don't necessarily buy into all religious texts, but I'm very happy to have them exist complete so that they can be studied and passed down. They form part of my heritage.

 

Don't burn books (or part of them)!

Just understand that what was written at the time was relevant but whilst the moral aspect is still relevant, the context has changed over the centuries. To paraphrase; those who fail to learn the lessons of history are bound to repeat the errors.

Bill Liggins

 

I must agree with Bill on this. Where would the edit end & whom would be placed in charge of what should remain? Only my thoughts. Perhaps urban myth, although I have heard that books have been published that deny the holocaust.

Although my note at the end of my signature sounds biblical I have no personal belief in a higher power. (Would like to think karma can kick ass sometimes though). My thoughts for what they are worth are that it is not the written words in ancient text at fault, it is the blind interpretation of the text. Editing would not prevent an individual reading beyond the written word & finding their own meaning.

A scary world we live in.

Kindest regards,

Mandy.

 

One of my best friends is a Baptist Minister - and he would say that is is a matter of context and interpretation - that is putting things into the context of today and today's thinking. I am led to understand that there in lies the rub with the Koran - one is not "allowed" to do this - a literal meaning stays the way it always has. Beyond this I plead ignorance of all matters religous. Rob

 

It all feels a little like having a modern car and insisting on using the instructional manual for a chariot.

I don't think I would go back to that garage.

 

Does that mean that no book should be edited or updated and that we should stick with the first edition of all books?

Bill

 

Black or white or pick and mix? Pick and mix can accomodate black or white but black or white can't accomodate the shades of grey and possibly colours of pick and mix. With pick and mix, ultimately anything goes, ie an individual belief system for each humanbeing and possibly some animals too maybe.

The downside of pick and mix is that it doesn't satisfy man's need for power and dominance. That can only be found in black or white. A kind of I'm right, your wrong and if you continue to disagree with me, one way or another, I am going to use my power against you and whatever I do to you it will be your fault.

Of course this characteristic isn't just a manifestation of religion. it's a manifestation of humanness and shows itself in all human activity and therefore it wont go away, at least not in the short term or as long as it produces a survival advantage or something else comes along and produces an overwhelming survival disadvantage.

Naively I like the idea of religion rising 'above' (which it never does) and I like the idea of its rising above to be consistantly reflected in its instruction manual (which it isn't).

Maybe I need to take off the rose tinted spectacles but without them would I see the world in black and white or shades of grey?

 

Religion may not 'rise above', but individuals can and do, and they may find or have found religion an aid to doing so.

By all means update religious texts, but lets keep the 1st editions too. Perhaps large tracts of the Old Testament (which I believe the Koran has a great deal in common with) may not be relevant today. But my grandchildren or great-granchildren may find it interesting, and relevant too, in the future - who knows?

Incidentally, I believe that quite a bit of the New Testament was already re-written after the Synod of Whitby in the AD 500's. This was evidently in an attempt to bring the Roman and Celtic churches together. Others, better read than me on this subject, may like to comment on this - I know we have at least one ex-Minister on this forum.

 

The obvious example that comes to mind is Darwin's Origins. I think there were six issues, but oddly, the first was the most hard hitting. Chas lessened his position, as time went on. This may seem strange, but actually history tells us that this is what happens. Chas shat himself upon the publication of his first version - he knew what excrement would make contact with the ventilator - and delayed publication for perhaps 25 years. As the **** the fan, he slowly detuned his book to fit in with public debate. But it should not have been so. If one publishes in the academic press, peer reviewed, then that is that, so to speak. One should not have to retreat into a cave because public opinion has taken a funny turn. Rob

 

Religious doctrine aside, it is the programming and conditioning of children in every culture that is the problem. The acceptance of 'knowledge' at an early age - including the inculcation of religious doctrine - forms part of the basic building blocks of the cognitive process. When these beliefs are challenged, it can provoke a difficult emotional and psychological crisis.

Remember Santa??

 

No. Just don't burn the 1st edition, because it has historical context.

All the best

Bill

 

This will never end as long as one person, with something as rudimentary as a butcher's cleaver, can perform a random act of violence and have the entire world take note.

Religion has always been used by extremists. If not a mainstream religion then they just formulate their own to suit their purpose.

Don't blame religion or religious texts...it's man. He's violent. He will always find an excuse to be violent.
The main difference now is that the 24/7 news agencies make sure we hear about them, over and over again.

Can you imagine if we had CNN during the Crusades????

My 2 cents

Steve

 

I think that's the bottom line. We are not going to change that human characteristic and it undboutedly confers a survival advantage (for the atheist, in this world and for the believer in this world and the next).

Its recognition of this characteristic that lies behind 'give me the child until the age of seven and I'll give you the adult'. It might also be the idea behind entering the kingdom of God as a child.

The upside is we got over Sanata, disn't we?

Bill

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/RtgbvotqVFE?rel=0


British Military Cemetery in Libya.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/RtgbvotqVFE?rel=0