Welcome to the Podiatry Arena forums

You are currently viewing our podiatry forum as a guest which gives you limited access to view all podiatry discussions and access our other features. By joining our free global community of Podiatrists and other interested foot health care professionals you will have access to post podiatry topics (answer and ask questions), communicate privately with other members, upload content, view attachments, receive a weekly email update of new discussions, access other special features. Registered users do not get displayed the advertisements in posted messages. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our global Podiatry community today!

  1. Everything that you are ever going to want to know about running shoes: Running Shoes Boot Camp Online, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Have you considered the Critical Thinking and Skeptical Boot Camp, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Have you considered the Clinical Biomechanics Boot Camp Online, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Have you considered the Clinical Biomechanics Boot Camp Online, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
Dismiss Notice
Have you liked us on Facebook to get our updates? Please do. Click here for our Facebook page.
Dismiss Notice
Do you get the weekly newsletter that Podiatry Arena sends out to update everybody? If not, click here to organise this.

Is a Sub 2 hour Marathon Possible?

Discussion in 'Break Room' started by Craig Payne, Sep 30, 2013.

Tags:
  1. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,

    Why settle for sub2hr when we should be shooting for sub 1:50 or a 10% improvement.
    Why set the goal so low?

    Jeff the patent at attorney speaks with some first hand knowledge and makes some great points.
    I repeat this Nike patent should not have been issued IMHO because mechanically it is just using heel and toe leaf springs, something we have been using in prosthetics for a long long time. They have not invented anything new.

    "Technically, Nike do not actually state in the patent application what technical advantage is actually achieved by the spring plate (which from a patent attorney's perspective is a pretty important omission), but nonetheless based upon the comments in the Background section and the general terminology used throughout the patent specification it is fairly clear that the purpose of the spring element is to "improve locomotion efficiency."
    "What is striking about Nike's patent application is that Nike make no attempt to disguise the real purpose of the carbon fibre insert. Nike could have, for example, used completely different terminology and referred instead to the spring plate as being a "cushioning element". Nike could have said that the purpose of the cushioning element was to distribute energy involved in the impact of a running shoe with a hard surface more evenly as a function of time thereby reducing stress upon an athlete's foot and reducing the risk of injury. No mention might have been made at all in the patent application to any potential performance enhancement effects."

    Carbon fiber will break these records an as they did the 40 yard dash at the recent NFL combine.
    "They weigh 6.9 ounces and have a full carbon plate as part of the shoe. Unfortunately, they’re exclusive for the combine, so you won’t be able to buy the Vapor 4.2s yourself."
    http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/03/joh...ash-record-breaking-adidas-island-nike-cleats

    All Aboard the Faster Train!

    A hui hou,
    Steve

    Disclaimer I am the author and own the international patents that superseeds Nike's simple leaf spring shoe patent.
    US Pat# 8,353,968
    We have tested it for the US Department of Defense for SBIR A11-109 "Advanced Composite Insoles for the Reduction of Stress Fractures." US DoD and AMRMC

    Levers Do Work
    Leaf Springs Just Spring
    :)
     
  2. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
  3. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,

    Perhaps Tucker is right foam would make a great "restrictor plate" for the field of athletics.

    We may not want our armature athletes running too fast...

    Here is NASCAR's solution for keeping race cars from going too fast.
    Perhaps instead of foam restrictors we could also use steel plate restrictors in the shoes of our athletes?

    A hui hou,
    Steve

    Making Room for Vrooom!


    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Tucker Plate?
     
  5. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  6. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
    Here is the Runners World spread on the Nike shoe:
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,
    Before we villainize carbon fiber we should understand that there are many thermoplastics that offer high modulus of elasticity such as nylon and Polyoxymethylene (POM), sold in homopolymer. There are a variety of commercially available POM copolymers under several trade names such as: Celcon, Hostaform, Kepital, Lucel, Schulaform, Tecaform, Ultraform Delrin, so carbon fiber acetal is that resin. Now many of these plastics can be reinforced with short chopped carbon fibers which is not the same as the thermoset resins that are used with long strand carbon fibers weaved into fabric form.
    So before we go all off kilter and start burning carbon fiber shoes and chasing them out of town with pitch forks we should understand that enhanced shoes (and orthotics) can be made from a large variety of materials that are currently available.

    A hui hou,
    Steve



    :)
     
  8. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,
    According to CNN, Nike is making a 4% energy saving claim by increasing shoe stiffness at the metatarsal phalangeal joints.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/17/health/breaking-the-2-hour-marathon/index.html

    I think that is reasonable but also the limit of which they can achieve with simple plating in foam shoes.
    But to get to a 1:52 marathon they will need to do radically more.

    What are your thoughts?

    I would urge everyone to re-read Chapter 7 Work and Energy in the "Biomechanics of Sports Shoes" by Benno M. Nigg Phd.

    A hui hou,
    Steve

    :)
     
  9. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,
    It is good to see that the shoe companies are finally (17 years) taking heed of some of the good research at our Universities.

    Dr. Nigg and Stefanyshyn published these results about increasing MPJ shoe stiffness on pages 87-88 of "Energy Aspects Associated with Sports Shoes"
    sportverletzung sportschaden 2000sept:14(3):82-9

    This is a good short read worth reading if you want to keep up with this faster paced emerging science.

    A hui hou,
    Steve

    :)
     
  10. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  11. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  12. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  13. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    Nike's attempt is going down tomorrow.
    They live streaming it free on YouTube.
    Start time is 5.45AM Saturday 6th Italy time; that is 11.45PM ET (Friday 5th)
     
  14. been lost of chat about it, seems many are saying 59.59 1st half is the only way to go trying to bank a little time should see explosions 2nd half
     
  15. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  16. attempt is still underway and we can conclude to the question

    No

    pretty amazing attempt, but this time round it failed too much BS not enough science seems to be the current voice
     
  17. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    Awesome job by the pacers!
    But the day was not the day.
    Still absolutely extraordinary.
    2:00:22
     
  18. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    I don't believe in the way it is being done/attempted... but I certainly appreciate the talent & effort of Eliud Kipchoge... in running this fast over the marathon. The majority of people couldn't run just 1 mile (or half a mile) at 4:35-36 pace... let alone run 26 of them back to back.

    It now appears a human will run under 2 hours pretty soon... albeit, under controlled/crafted conditions.

    Runner's World write up on it...
    So Close! Kipchoge Runs a 2:00:25 in the Breaking2 Attempt (http://www.runnersworld.com/2-hour-marathon/so-close-kipchoge-runs-a-20025-in-the-breaking2-attempt?utm_campaign=Runner’s World&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=888812674)

    Here is some video footage of the attempt...



    I must say, Eliud Kipchoge does look an old 32 year old.
     
  19. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  20. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  21. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  22. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    Just caught a snippet that Nike running shoe sales down 12% in the first quarter of 2017 .... lets see if Breaking2 as a marketing stunt really worked.
     
  23. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  24. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  25. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Here is an interesting video on that "Nike's Breaking 2 Project". It discusses the shoe - Nike's Vaporfly 4%... & the drafting technique used...

     
  26. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,

    Well, If drafting is allowed then draft baby draft.
    " In scaled wind-tunnel tests, driving 100 feet behind a semi at 55 mph will reduce drag on your car by 40%. The drag reduction increases as you approach the bumper of the truck until you get a 93% drag reduction at a distance of 2 feet."

    upload_2017-8-14_9-44-44.jpeg

    How about using a spring levered carbon fiber plate in the shoes next time instead of just a flat plate surrounded by EVA foam to Break the 2 hour marathon?


    I am also looking for team runners for our Sub151 TM Marathon effort.
    1:51 marathon or bust !
    Contact me at mauipodiatry@outlook.com if you want to join our record breaking-setting team.

    A hui hou,
    Steve

    Levers Do Work...
     
  27. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  28. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  29. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  30. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    Berlin is on this Sunday. Kipchoge vs Bekele vs Kipsang. World record on?
     
  31. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,

    The temps look pretty good, could be a bit cooler. 55-60 F
    And temps are a significant influence on performance.

    It would be nuts if they could break it here on Maui next month October is HOT here.
    http://mauimarathon.com/

    I can promise we will not run out of cups or water on Maui when the temps go over 90.
    Remember 10 years ago,,,in Chicago?
    http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1669408,00.html

    But of course pendulums can move in both directions, (kind of like levers).
    http://www.icemarathon.com/site/press-2006/45.html

    A hui hou,
    Steve

    Member Valley Isle Road Runners
    :)
     
  32. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  33. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  34. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,
    Nice Documercial by Nike and National Geographic.

    At time stamp 25:00

    I must stand on my head and ask again what exactly is creating the "energy harvesting " in this Nike shoe.
    How can Nike claim that a shoe that uses lossy impedance as the shock absorber (blown plastic foams) can also claim that it is energy harvesting that returns significant energy-work.
    You cannot have it both ways with foam.

    We must free our minds from the concept of energy harvesting and focus more on energy efficiency.
    This can be achieved with better passive dynamics of the footwear systems.

    Also is the shoe designer person being interviewed from Nike the same one that claimed that Nike is capturing "Zoom Air" and returning that "Zoom" later in gait?
    What SI units is "zoom" measured in?
    Time stamp 1:15


    Is it science or sales?

    Happy Friday!
    Steve
     
  35. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

  36. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Wow,
    And Kevin Kirby said my $350 carbon fiber footwear orthotic was expensive how does 5oo Euros sound?
    "People who do that will be notified through their NRC app when the Nike Zoom Vaporfly Elite becomes available on September 27 for 500 Euros."

    Does anybody know the mechanism on how exactly Nike "tuned" the shoes?
    "He’ll wear a custom version of the Nike Zoom Vaporfly Elite with a carbon fiber plate tuned for his specific performance needs".
    Was it by adjusting elastic modulus of the composite plate?
    Was it by the degree of prebending of the carbon plate so it could follow the shape of the toe spring built into the last?
    Was it by adjusting the thickness and durometer of the EVA foam to adjust for the amount of lossy impedance it provides?

    Just curious, like a scientist should be.

    A hui hou,
    Steve
     
  37. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
    Press Release:
    adidas' Fastest Long-Distance Runners to Compete in a Limited Edition Update of the adidas Adizero Sub2 at Berlin Marathon
    adidas adizero Sub2

    The adidas adizero Sub2, featuring BOOST Light technology, is adidas Running’s lightest, fastest racing BOOST shoe ever created
    Inspired by clouds, for the first time ever, BOOST is reimagined in a white and silver marble pattern
    adidas athletes Kipsang, Makau and Kandie to wear the revolutionary shoe to achieve new records in Berlin
    Berlin, September 22, 2017: adidas Running has today unveiled a limited edition update of its adidas adizero Sub2 racing shoes and the continuation of a journey which started with the first release at the beginning of the year. After racing to victory in February in Tokyo in adizero Sub2, Kenyan Wilson Kipsang will again attempt to break the boundaries in distance running in Berlin.

    With a strong history of marathon success including owning four world records, adizero is adidas’ fast franchise, and now, with years of cutting-edge innovation, research, development and testing with adidas professionals, including advanced lighter BOOST, it just got faster. The brand's goal was to make the world's fastest long-distance racing shoe through the aggregation of marginal gains during the 20,000+ steps it takes to complete a marathon.
    Independent sports science research has shown that Boost can provide a one per cent improvement in running economy
    Overall weight reduction of 100 grams delivers an additional one per cent improvement in running economy
    Continental rubber sole delivers more grip and less slip, meaning athletes only run as far as they need to
    The elite silhouette is central to adidas’ ambitious Sub2 program. Founded on the belief that a sub2 marathon should be achieved in real race conditions, each product innovation and competition is an opportunity to get closer to breaking the sub2 barrier. The shoe, now available in black, features a full-length BOOST Light midsole and combines industry-leading energy return with adidas’ lightest BOOST foam. Inspired by the lightness of clouds, BOOST comes in a marble pattern for the first time ever.

    A single layer upper of ultralight fabric engineered from reduced-weight mesh with internal reinforcements and advanced Microfit gives athletes support, comfort and fit. In the outsole, the Continental Microweb (evolved from Stretchweb) maximizes grip and reduces slipping.

    Wilson Kipsang, Kenyan marathon runner and adidas athlete said: “The adidas adizero Sub2 has transformed my race day form. Its light, responsive structure, combined with incredible grip and BOOST Light helps me run at maximum efficiency, so I have more energy and power to sprint during the run, even in the final stages of the race. It means a lot to me to compete in this shoe, which is the best I’ve ever experienced.”

    Matthias Amm, Product Category Director, adidas Running said: “This year, Berlin is particularly exciting as we bring together our fastest athletes and products at the world’s fastest marathon platform. Our mission is to create the best for the athletes. With adizero Sub2, we developed a product designed to enable them to unlock their potential. Berlin is an important milestone in our journey and we’re excited to watch our runners on Sunday.”

    The adidas adizero Sub2 is a limited-edition model, available only for the fastest runners in the world including Kenyan athletes Wilson Kipsang, Patrick Makau and Felix Kandie, who will race in the shoe on Sunday. Consumers who can prove that they ran a marathon time below 2:50 hours or who start in Berlin in Group A can win one of 25 pairs at the #adizero Sub2 Studio located at the Berlin Marathon Expo.
     
  38. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
  39. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    This 2017 Berlin Marathon should be a great race. In Australia we rarely see real athletes competing in real sports such as athletics/marathon on our T.V (we usually only have men chasing some ball around a paddock). I don't have cable T.V (where this race could be shown i.e. Eurosport)... however, this website looks to have links to the livestream:

    Watch Athletics: http://www.watchathletics.com/article/10246/live-berlin-marathon-2017/

    Race starting at 9:15am Berlin time which converts to 5:15pm AEST (hence in about 3hrs time).
     
Loading...

Share This Page