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Dentron Biogun for verrucae and athletes foot

Discussion in 'General Issues and Discussion Forum' started by *sole_man*, Oct 15, 2005.

  1. *sole_man*

    *sole_man* Member

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    Hi, I am considering buying the dentron biogun to use for verrucae and athletes foot in my clinic. Does anyone have any experience with this equipment and could they let me know how effective it is. Also, I am having trouble finding research to back it up so any links would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks, James.
  2. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

  3. Don ESWT

    Don ESWT Active Member

    Go to Google, there is a lot of information on the product. I have not tried it but it appears to be not very popular.
    If you are in the UK, there is a Podiatrist Mr Mike Potter conducting a study on VP's
    Southhampton Uni.
    I use a combination of chemicals Mono with Sal.
    There was a thread a couple of weeks ago on VP treatments.

    Don Scott
  4. C Bain

    C Bain Active Member

    Statistic, Verruca!

    Hi All,

    When considering the value of various products and treatments on verruca, I always check the natural healing rates or regressions of Verruca, that of 85%. What I mean is will the Verruca treatment claimed heal-rate exceed 85%, (What it does naturally, anyway!)? If it's 85%+ worth a second look!

    If it does not exceed 85% I would consider various well known brands of treatments including certain cryosurgeries, Acid treatments, and praying over it including giving it the Last Rights out of desperation! Never mind out in the back garden with the, what was it the pound of steak at midnight, you could catch your death of cold doing that???

    I cannot remember the success rate for the Dentron but it looks good on paper if I remember rightly, definitely check around! 'THATFOOTSITE' perhaps, and stick Verruca and Dentron Biogun in the search box here!?



    PS. Before considering buying anything, make sure you read Threads on Dentron Biogun in this Forums Search Box on the Home Page bottom left of screen! Read carefully the information there! It could save you quite a lot of money!!!
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2005
  5. Tim VS

    Tim VS Active Member

    There was a limited clinical trial carried out, the results of which I believe you can read on the dentron site. The trouble is, all the patients in the trial group were also treated with a keratolytic, or similar, which rather makes the results invalid! Other than that, all other evidence is anecdotal at best, as far as I am aware.


    Tim VS
  6. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Limited is the word Tim.
    The only "research" I've seen was published in the same website colours as Dentron's own site, and claimed 100% success.

    Hmmmm.............. :cool:
  7. Tim VS

    Tim VS Active Member

    LOL! mind you, some practitioners claim great success with banana skins, and there isn't a lot of clinical data to support that either!

    One thing is for certain, VPs seem to attract a mixture of the bizarre and the baffling when it comes to treatments.
  8. Angus

    Angus Member

    I have come late to this debate, but it seems the biogun is very similar in operation and effect to a beauty therapist's high frequency unit (although the units look nothing like each other), the main effect of which, is to produce ozone (which you can clearly smell during operation) on the skin's surface. One could argue this is bacteriacidal, maybe even fungicidal, but virucidal? I remain to be convinced, and having spoken to the inventor, he doesn't seem to know - or is unwilling to tell- how it works.
  9. Tim VS

    Tim VS Active Member

    I think that about sums it up!
  10. Jonathan Copus

    Jonathan Copus Welcome New Poster

    Oops - I've come even later to this debate. I AM that inventor, incidentally, and just wanted to respond to some of the previous thoughts on the Biogun.

    Electronic microbicidal technology isn't magic: the underlying scientific principles are sound and well-proven, as a glance under the Literature tab on our new website (www.dentron.co.uk) will show.

    Basically, the system kills bugs by bursting them with a concentrated stream of electrically-charged air particles. To be a bit more scientific about it, according to Kellogg et al (for refs see website) the principle microbicidal species of gaseous ion is the hydrated superoxide radical anion (O2.- plus some molecules of H2O), which acts as a nucleophile on the phospholipid bilayer of the cell membrane, de-esterifying the fatty acids and leading to cell lysis. Shargawi et al later demonstrated that the microbicidal effect persisted (at least with C albicans) in an atmosphere of virtually pure nitrogen, so it can't be just superoxide responsible. Incidentally, if you read the Shargawi paper make sure you read the whole paper and not just the conclusion or the abstract, because for some reason known only to the author and his PhD supervisor the conclusion ignores the nitrogen finding!

    The anions are formed by charging a sharp point (in this case a fine wire, to avoid needle-stick injuries) to a high voltage negative with respect to earth, with the effect that extra electrons are effectively "sprayed" onto passing air molecules (yes, the particle physics IS a bit more complex in reality!). So the Biogun is just like an air ioniser which you can buy a lot more cheaply in Boots or Lloyds - only the Biogun is hugely more powerful and contains some pretty nifty circuitry (though I say so myself) to regulate the current to a predetermined and safe dose. (For those with rusty physics, it's the available current, not the voltage, which is potentially dangerous - no pun intended.)

    The device was originally developed to cure athlete's foot, something it does in one hit with 2 minutes to each interdigital space (but it won't also sterilise shoes and socks because they're not electrically conductive). But you're right, Angus, I don't know how it's supposed to attack virally-invaded cells differentially, and I myself was sceptical for a long time after reports from podiatrists kept coming into the office. Incidentally, the guy who did the "100%" trials was never paid a penny by us, and the fact that we used to carry his report on our website with the same crappy background as the rest of the site has no significance beyond the obvious. All I know is that a large number of pods who've bought a Biogun continue to swear by it (rather than at it!) for tinea, VP and fungal nails (v effective, but takes a helluva time for a hallux).

    We were paid £180k out of public funds to develop the device for dentistry, but when we went back to the cash cow to do podiatry trials her milk had dried up - hence the lack of substantive clinical trials by a podiatry school. However, Manchester Royal Infirmary did a small pilot study on MRSA in diabetic foot ulcers and came out with some positive results: the study director is in one of the videos on the website. There's also a great stack of in vitro results on a total of 43 representative micro-organisms, so we're not talking electronic snake oil here, by any means.

    In short, the Biogun is not a miracle cure, and no-one has ever pretended it was. It's excellent at some things - surface bacterial and fungal infections - but struggles with anything under the surface or intra-cellular, as you might expect.

    If anyone out there fancies doing some studies, there's a shiny new machine waiting for him or her (on loan, to avoid jeopardising impartiality); but as they say in the used car ads, no time-wasters, please.
  11. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner Member

    Hello Jonathan, thaks for that info,
    I can say that ive been useing your Dentron Bioguns for over ten years now with great results, On vps all types, Tina and clearing up infections around nails.
    Contra indications being pregnant women, pacemakers and Epileptic. So the treatment can be used on most patients.
    With vps I ipa par vp , pedigun and then use Gluterol or Occlusal, Patient then puts say the Gluterol on the sites twice a day , returns and I then repeat the treatment a week to ten days after the first treatment. After three treatments the Gluterol is applied twice a day for one more week. treatment then stops and vps go. Mr Clive Vernon taught me how to do this.
    Many thanks too Dentron for what must be hundreds of vps destroyed!.
    I would like to write a paper on this subject and I am am the moment looking into how to do this. As I already have the equipment etc I wont require any help from Dentron.
    Thanks again you take care.
  12. Elizabeth Humble-Thomas

    Elizabeth Humble-Thomas Active Member

    I bought a Biogun a few years ago, but had very little, if any success with it.Maybe I was using it incorrectly, and I must admit I felt a bit of a charlatan when using it!
    It is mothballed at the moment, but I may bring it out again - I'll watch this thread.
    Incidentally I tried the 'needling' method on a large stubborn vp sub 1st ipj. The patient was happy with the treatment, but I was only able to treat this way because I ring blocked the toe - I have never learned ankle block anaesthesia, and anyway, how would the patient walk out of my surgery with an ankle block?
  13. Ian Drakard

    Ian Drakard Active Member

    Carefully ;)
  14. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Hi Elizabeth,

    I can understand how the biogun may be effective against sepsis and utilised to break down the biofilm in a chronically infected ulcer (although you don`t really see many pts presenting with such wounds in PP) but, how can the anions have any effect on a virus which does not have a phospholipid bilayer?! Oh yeah, I remember now. It "distinguishes between virally-invaded cells and normal skin cells and is therefore effective against verrucae. It produces even more rapid results in synergy with a keratolytic."(Taken from the dentron website; http://www.dentron.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d29.html)
    Amazing, but don`t forget your keratolytic, it might just help :rolleyes:

    With regard to needling VP, you don`t have to perform a full ankle block. Dependant upon where the VP is situated, you can quite comfortably use local infiltration, or if you prefer, a tibial block. Thus, the pt can walk (although may not be able to drive, after a tib block) from your surgery. It`s a shame that most UK universities only train pods to perform digital ring blocks. We have rightfully gained the qualification to use local anaesthetic for treatment of pathology on the lower limb, yet many can`t utilise this qualification for anything other than nail surgery:craig:. If you are interested in learning these techniques, I would recommend finding a mentor in your area, who is willing to let you observe them.

    Hope that helps!
  15. Ian Drakard

    Ian Drakard Active Member

    As Bel points out in her somewhat more helpful answer than mine- you don't just ankle block because it's a needling procedure- pick the most appropriate method for the area. If I was just doing a hallucal vp I'd do a digital block as well.

    By the way Bel, I have a few nice needling result pics which I'll post in the right thread when I've uploaded them.
  16. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Nah, not more helpful. I just lack the ability to be pithy ;)

    Look forward to seeing those pics:drinks

  17. David Widdowson

    David Widdowson Active Member

    I've had a Dentron Biogun for several years and have had dramatic success and dramatic failure (Maybe a few more succeses than failures).
    The problem I have with the call for more studies is validity.

    1. Finding a group of patients at the same time (Or over time) with the same stage VP who have ALL tried identical home treatments (Oh yes they will have) ALL for the same time and intensity, with similar medical histories.
    2. Now you have satisfied No.1 you give them all the same treatment regime.
    3.Your results are checked and validated - you are now ready to walk on water!

    Seriously, in the real world, patients will have usually tried countless home treatments, some with medications or home cryo kits or even banana skin or duct tape. Many VP's will be well on the way to remission before they see me, although I don't know that, do I?

    So, I give them a blast with the Biogun and sell them some occlusal and give them a home treatment plan and tell them I don't expect to see them again because now its down to you and if you don't stick to the plan don't expect to see the VP go!

    So does the Dentron Biogun work?
    Answer, definately YES... or ...NO ... well sometimes... without a doubt.

    I still would not be without it because it DOES NOT HURT when you use it and that means children do not scream/throw up etc.
    And when the worried well of Surrey need VP treatment for their young the words NOT HURT mean a lot.

    Regards to all
  18. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Agree, with most of what you say. But, and I know I shouldn`t start a sentence with a subjunctive, neither does silver nitrate hurt nor the wart fairy/wand....and it`s a helluva lot cheaper!

    Just my thoughts
  19. David Widdowson

    David Widdowson Active Member

    Dear Blinda

    Perhaps I should have stated things more clearly... ITS THE MAGIC WHAT DOES IT!

    And most importantly the more you pay the more effective the placebo.

  20. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Love a bit of magic, me :drinks

  21. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Go On ;):D

    I might get my Biogun out of mothballs and give it another go??

    I had a Pt come in several of weeks ago with her mum who was singing my praisies for getting rid of all her VP's with an "electronic thingy" ( Biogun) some 8 years ago she now along with mum had a reinfection and wanted another Tx.

    After examination it was decided to needle both patients which has been effective but it was muted by another pod who was here at the time " perhaps you should give it a go again"?

    It has lain dormant in my surgery for about 5 years because I lost faith in the effectiveness of the Tx BUT when you get a past patient ( and she wasnt alone at the time, but so were as many non believers after Tx) that is extolling the virtues of it..... perhaps just one more try..... or perhaps not:D

    we will see:rolleyes:

  22. David Widdowson

    David Widdowson Active Member

    Go on you know you want to.
    Give in to the force.

  23. blinda

    blinda MVP

    You know me, Del. Witchcraft `n all that;


    I hear what you`re saying....also love a bespoke placebo as the next Barnum ;)

    "Lain dormant", eh? Much like VPs, according to the research i`ve been reading of late....


    IG`s fault, Sinatra on the brain tonight.
  24. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Noooooooooooo, Del. He`s from the Dark Side :eek:
  25. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    And I'm not ?????????????????????:eek:
  26. blinda

    blinda MVP

  27. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

  28. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

  29. Tracy.gill

    Tracy.gill Active Member

    It's been a long time since any recent post on the Biogun. Well I have had mine (one of two prototypes called a TRIO - which has the Biogun, painaway and drill) so its great in clinic or for home visits as I keep it in a padded bag for transport. Anyway used on verrucae for last 8 years, with about 75% success rate overall which I think is pretty good when compared with other chemical or cryo options. I have been keeping records/results over the years, but find it hard to produce meaningful research, I just know it works for my patients so happy with that.
    the reason for new post is that I am using the Biogun for treating cellulitis alongside patient taking antibiotics as this is a recurring infection. the patient is also a Nurse Practitioner so is being quite receptive to the treatment but no one seems to get the bottom of the root cause as the condition flares up a couple of time this year (2012/2013). So I will let you know results as I have only done one treatment so far with follow up in 7 days. has anyone else been using the Biogun or compiling results for various conditions ?
  30. Tracy.gill

    Tracy.gill Active Member

    Update on using Biogun for cellulitis . treated patient for follow up one week later and inflammation and redness completely gone. Retreated again last week after another two weeks, and skin is completely healed, no redness or weeping. Ok it could be the antibiotics worked as well as my treatment, but as this was a recurring problem ,so far it hasn't returned which is the longest interval without reinfection! So I endorse using my trio machine yet again....
  31. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    For rational treatment acceptance you need two things:

    i) a rationale
    ii) a peer reviewed double blinded randomised controlled study

    I quote from Blinda's posting of 26th October 2011 but, how can the anions have any effect on a virus which does not have a phospholipid bilayer?! Oh yeah, I remember now. It "distinguishes between virally-invaded cells and normal skin cells and is therefore effective against verrucae. It produces even more rapid results in synergy with a keratolytic."(Taken from the dentron website; http://www.dentron.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d29.html)

    Personally, I cannot understand how the device might 'cure' cellulitis and I suspect that it's all a matter of faith and 'magic'. Please complete the study and prove me wrong but until then I prefer science.

    All the best

    Bill Liggins
  32. Tracy.gill

    Tracy.gill Active Member

    I am not saying the Biogun cures cellulitis, but after using the machine for over ten years on verrucae and infections it appears to clear up quicker than other methods tried and tested. As a lone practitioner I cannot provide a double blind study etc, just sharing my views. if and there is a placebo in any of my treatments surely this is a treatment in itself which again is hard to prove or disprove! Every practitioner in our field has provided a placebo in treatments especially for verrucae etc as we have all said at some time the condition will resolve either by continued treatments, time etc....
  33. blinda

    blinda MVP


    This is taken from the Biogun website;
    A virus does not have a phospholipid bilayer, so it is physically impossible to iradicate HPV by this method. I suspect what you have witnessed is either the end of the viral life-cycle or the spontaneous regression of the viral infection which may, or may not, have been brought about by a placebo effect.

    In the age of evidence based practice, I would not recommend the biogun as a treatment for HPV.

  34. blinda

    blinda MVP

    For those interested in immunology and the HPV life-cycle, this is an excellent recently published article; http://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/5/6/1374

    Yay, let`s hear it for Open Access Journals :drinks
  35. Tracy.gill

    Tracy.gill Active Member

    Therein lies the problem I cannot prove or disprove Biogun works! Just going on results and happy patients
  36. blinda

    blinda MVP

    No, it is impossible for the biogun to breakdown a phospholipid bilayer that does not exist! Thus, cannot 'work' on HPV! It's an elaborate and expensive placebo at best, falling well within the snake oil category.

    All pts are happy when their HPV regress, as they were when they attributed 'cure' to writing the number of lesions on the inside of a vagrants hat and sending him out of town, taking the warts with him...
  37. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    Post of the week! GOLD!
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