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Flexible RF FFT pathology reflects pronation; Flexible FF pathology reflects supination; Spooner mis

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by drsha, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. drsha

    drsha Banned


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    In his lecture entitled "Myth Busting: A Revolution in Biomechanics, Dr Simon Spooner credits me (Dennis Shavelson DPM) with the following quote:
    “To me, pronation is bad, supination
    good.”- Shavelson 2012
    He blames me for a myth that I busted as well historically.
    http://www.arteveldehogeschool.be/e...iatric Biomechanics myth busting. Belgium.pdf

    In fact, I have been the major voice in theoretical biomechanics stating that RF Pronation is not the major cause of pedal and postural pathology. Instead, it is compensatory. The Myth that I am busting that Dr Spooner neglects to discuss in his lecture is that SALRE is a weak monitor of primary biomechanical pathology and points us to weak treatments, foot type specific.

    In 2009, I started a thread on Podiatry Arena entitled:
    "STJ Pronation Not the Common Cause of Foot Problems"
    http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=27042&page=6

    In 2012, I started this thread on the same site:
    Pronation:Busting Some Myths with Disruptive Technology
    http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=77726

    My position on this subject is further defined in this thread that I started on Present Podiatry eTalk entitled:
    "Biomechanical Unification Question #1: Is Pronation--Hyperpronation Always Bad?"
    https://podiatry.com/etalk/Biomechanical-Unification-t5694.html#-1

    The facts here that I attest to are that pronation, in most circles including biomechanics, podiatry, sports medicine, running, closed chain medicine, has come to mean something bad that happens in the Rearfoot on the frontal plane.
    (Please Google Pronation to confirm). This is a myth that I Bust.

    Most of our pedal pathology in feet that are collapsing (low foot posture) has a supinatory origin in the forefoot with the exception of the double flex foot and double rigid foot types.

    I would be pleased to see Dr Spooner present the documentation (or the location and context of his quote) that reflects me believing that pronation is bad or even worse, that supination is good.

    The biggest problem in functional lower extremity biomechanics is first ray supination and the defeat of the 1st ray rocker on the sagital plane (Dananberg).


    Dennis
     
  2. This is funny :D Dennis hasn't got a clue what was said in that lecture because he wasn't there and he has no transcript of what I said. All that he knows is the content of this slide: http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showpost.php?p=253664&postcount=10 I already told him when he said it in this thread: http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=77726 All he needs to do is go back and look through the drivel that he wrote that day.

    As ever, I have absolutely no interest in entering into any discussion with Dennis Shavelson and actually might as well take my colleagues lead in adding him to the ignore list.
     
  3. drsha

    drsha Banned

    Dr Spooner:
    I appreciate your rather civil response.
    I went back to the thread from which you derived that quote.

    I stated that Foot Centering Theory was disruptive technology and then wrote:
    "Introducing to the novices and students of biomechanics the thought that pronation is bad and supination is good or that the rearfoot is the primary cause of biomechanical pathology needs replacing with a disruptive technology".

    I'm not sure how you appreciated that:
    Pronation is bad and supination is good was my position and then when on the slide in question, you made me responsible for the myth that has been perpetuated by the podiatry community at large to this date that I was looking to bust.

    Dennis

    PS: With one or two exceptions, I am finding your Ph.D thesis ahead of its time.
     
  4. Dennis is incorrect, he was not made responsible for anything within my lecture, merely used as an example of someone making a statement perpetuating an archaic myth. That being that movements i.e. pronation and supination can be carte blanche labelled as being "good" or "bad". Even now, he still doesn't get it. I derived the quote from his post on the 19 /3/ 2012. It stated in full context:
    http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=69635 I told him when he'd said it in the "pronation busting myths with disruptive technology" thread, hence my post reading "19/3/2012". Isn't it amazing that after my powerpoint lecture slides were made public, DrSha made a U-turn on his thoughts less than 2 months later and then started a thread entitled: "pronation busting myths with disruptive technology", when just a couple of months before he'd stated that
    DrSha has now been added to my ignore list.:cool:
     
  5. drsha

    drsha Banned

    With this further explanation, I get it.

    Dennis
     
  6. This message is hidden because drsha is on your ignore list.

    Should have done that years ago.;):D
     
  7. efuller

    efuller MVP

    Would it be too cruel to add an "ignored by" count right under the number of thanks? I'd never have to respond to Dennis again. A person new to the arena would know right a way of someone's reputation. To prevent abuse it should probably be a count of active members with more than 20 posts. Just a thought.

    Eric
     
  8. My blood pressure has now dropped 20 mm Hg when reading posts on Podiatry Arena ever since I put Dennis, Blaise and Dana on my ignore list.

    Since I am now making healthy lifestyle choices.....less fat......less salt......no more reading bizarre comments from Dennis, Blaise and Dana......I'm now gonna add another 10 years onto my life......:rolleyes:
     
  9. MR NAKE

    MR NAKE Active Member

    Why is there so much brutality/ Hostility, in the arena? surely no one has claim to Autonymous knowledge beyond everyone else!:bang::boxing:
     
  10. drhunt1

    drhunt1 Well-Known Member

    Very good question. Dr. Shavelson was repeatedly attacked and eventually banned from this site. Makes one wonder. Simon put him on ignore, much like he did with me...and I wear that distinction with honor. To be ignored by Simon means I must be on the right track.

    Suffice it to write, egos are HUGE on this site...my brief foray here has demonstrated that for sure. It appears to be the academics that have the most to "protect", thus their approach to others with differing opinions is less then exemplary. Academics can recite chapter and verse ALL of the research that has been done in re to a certain topic, but, IMO, struggle to bring reality and meaning to the research, and/or fail to separate the wheat from the chaff in re to the study. Not all research is meaningful, cogent and without clinical errors. It is not the end all of any discussion, it is merely a starting point. But don't tell the academics that...they cling to those studies/words as if they were a life vest in a sea of scientific turmoil. They use the research as a shield to deflect criticism and contrarian opinion.

    Dr Shavelson should be offered an apology and reinstatement. He and I differ on a great many precepts...there's not much we do agree upon, as a matter of fact. But to ban him is over the top editorial discretion...and here in the States, there's something called the first amendment which I hold dearly and exercise frequently.
     
  11. Doogle

    Doogle Active Member

    I used to lurk before i joined because i thought i would be bullied as a student not knowing much. look at the statistics and the top posters dont any more. i wonder why?
     
  12. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    au contraire; he was banned for his repeated personal attacks and personal abuse of those who disagreed with him. He made a choice to take criticisms of his concepts personally and respond personally.
    If you act and respond in certain ways, then users tend to respond in certain ways.

    Seriously? I not even in the USA and know enough that you do not know your constitution: The first amendment gives you protection from the government for 'freedom of speech' when speaking out about the government. The last time I checked Podiatry Arena was not part of the US government.
     
  13. drhunt1

    drhunt1 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for that. Was he warned? Kevin Kirby came very close to crossing the line in re to defamation of character issues with me. His posts have been archived. Did you shoot an editorial "volley across his bow" as he so definitely deserved? If you did, I must have missed it. Did you warn Simon when he attacked me over non-sensical BS? I didn't read that either. While I didn't read Dr. Shavelson's posts which got him banned, I find it hard to imagine that they rose to the level of defamation of character legal issues.
     
  14. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Sorry, it really is against my policy to discuss banned members - I said more above than I normally would. These discussions normally end up in a worse place and are not worth it.

    A ban is not a knee jerk reaction - it comes after a lot of anguish and consideration. I get damned if I do and damned if I don't.

    If member gets put on "ignore" or "abused", it tends to be because of the way the behaved or responded initially.

    Podiatry Arena is littered with "one hit wonders" who come here promoting their pet theories who then react badly when they get taken to task. They tend not to respond well to that.
    Invariably, that is started when they make unsubstantiated claims that they get called on --> things go downhill from there. Yes, well established members can get out of line; and yes they get warned.

    See this:http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=41531 - its satire but we seen them all here on Podiatry Arena over the 10 years.
     
  15. Yep. The "one hit wonders" you speak of think that everything revolves around their pet theories even though none of them have any peer-reviewed research papers to support their claims. Then they get defensive and, sometimes, get downright nasty when people disagree with them. At times, I think I'm getting too old for all this nonsense and feel that it just isn't worth contributing at all when this sort of thing is going on.
     
  16. Can I ask why you picked this thread from 2013 to post to today?

    The most common denominator for the "one hit wonders"? They're here to sell a product and/or proclaim that they are the saviour, yet when challenged are incapable of providing an academic defense of their assertions.

    Academic debate is often brutal and hostile, Mr Nake. But if you think Podiatry Arena is brutal and hostile, you might want to take a look at what is happening in the rest of the world right now.
     
  17. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
  18. drhunt1

    drhunt1 Well-Known Member

    Pot, kettle, black.
     
  19. drhunt1

    drhunt1 Well-Known Member

    Let me give you my two cents on this. You refer to "one hit wonders" as if that's necessarily a bad thing. We all have different capacities to accept and process information...but what "binds" us together is a similar professional degree/passion for "all things related to the foot". If someone can't or won't defend their position, while it doesn't bode well for whatever theory they're forwarding, it doesn't mean their observations aren't valid. My problem with those academics here at this site is on a number of issues. First, it is usually those same academics that are promoting their own theories that are some of the first to attack others that question it. Second, it is their typical dogmatic style that irritates the dickens out of me. I've sat in a number of lecture halls listening to their drivel, bored out of my brains because their "new theory" doesn't solve my patients' problems or make it easier for me to decide how to treat. Biomechanics still represents, IMHO, a nascent field. I am extremely wary of anyone who claims to have a new paradigm when we still can't agree on what we had/knew previously. Attaching different names to what already is known is not even building a better mouse-trap...it is, an exercise in futility. Third...it is the "pounding square pegs into round holes syndrome"...or trying to approach biomechanics with blinders on. No one has a theory that can be utilized across the board that explains all problems, but like I wrote on another thread, doctors tend to make things a lot more complicated than they really are. Is that a dichotomy? No.

    The same parameters you appear to use to decide whether, or not, to ban someone, I have witnessed first hand by some of the gurus here unabated. Perhaps a reset button needs to be pushed...either that, or the toilet bowl needs to be emptied. Like I wrote before...I have heard Dr. Shavelson come after me over the phone...and if I can't take the heat, it's time to get out of the kitchen. At least he was professional about his questions/statements...which is more than I can state for those academics here that act otherwise.
     
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