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on line survey

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by toomoon, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

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    Hi all.. i just posted an on-line survey on my facebook page www.facebook.com/bartoldbiomechanics:

    The first BB on-line poll: has the barefoot/minimalist experiment failed? yes or no?
    ie...for the MAJORITY of people, has minimalism and barefoot delivered what it promised: yes.. or no?
    Vote now!
    this is an on-line poll.. the only possible responses are yes.. or.. no.. the pros and cons have been discussed at length, so prolonged commentary is not permitted please.
    Let's see what you you think.. let all your friends know and let's get as many votes as possible! remember.. a simple yes.. or no..
    i will get the ball rolling and say i vote yes

    please take 30 seconds and vote!
  2. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    If you want to go to bartold biomechanics, use this, the link doesn't work with the colon.

    Simon, I couldn't answer yes or no because I never saw it as an experiment or as a promise to deliver. I see minimal shoes as simply an option. One that has been there since man first started making shoes, across time, across the world, across cultures. Shoes are what they are, pick whatever blows your skirt up.
  3. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    i disagree Dana.. VFF is a kayaking shoe that the company decided to use experimentally as a running shoe. They also made claims and promises that could not be sustained in a court of law and consequently they had to pay a very substantial settlement.
    I do not wear skirts..never have..never will.
  4. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, what do you disagree with? That it was an experiment or that I never saw it as one? I saw the heightened interest in minimal running shoes over the past 5 or 6 years as simply a heightened interest in a type of shoe with certain characteristics, that is it. That interest will surely shift with time to something else. I actually hope it is soon, this is really getting old.

    When did the courts make a decision on Vibram? How much did they pay? It was estimated by the lawyers that they might be liable for up to $5 million to those who felt they paid extra for the claims made over what they might have paid without the claims. If you think $5 million is substantial to a company like Vibram, what do you think about the $370 million Lance Armstrong might be on the hook for?

    VFF are what they are. A right that many of us have is that when it comes to footwear, we can buy and wear whatever we want. I never understood why there is a such a problem with having the right to chose personal footwear. Sure, marketing has always been there to help influence personal buying decisions. If you are skeptical about marketing claims or the value of a product, just don't buy it and move on.
  5. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    Quote " I never saw it as a promise to deliver."
    You would be the only one Dana.. the courts saw it that way.. and that not only did Vibram make promises they could not deliver.. but they cynically propagated a concept that they knew was either frankly injuring people or certainly had the potential to do so. Time to let it go Dana.
  6. Simon:

    My advice? Use the ignore button on Dana....it will greatly simplify your life and your frustration level.

    BTW, the one year anniversary of "The Tarsal Coalition" is coming up soon....
  7. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    BTW, the one year anniversary of "The Tarsal Coalition" is coming up soon....[/QUOTE]

    i was only thinking of that the other day.. start rehearsing Blue Suede Shoes and All Shook Up please
  8. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, you have to be pretty naive to believe the marketing claims of shoe companies. If I'm the only one that is not naive, I thank you for the compliment. On Facebook you mentioned three decisions against shoe companies. I can think of two against toning shoe which are not minmal shoes and the courts have not decided if vibram overcharged for the shoes. Since the price of vibrams runs between 90 and 110 US, it will be interesting to see how much the courts find vibram to be overcharging. I can think of several shoe companies that start at prices higher than 110 and have only made vague claims like their shoes are game changers.

    Since you've implied the the courts have already ruled against vibram, can you share the link where you read this?

    Simon, I am just a runner. I have no ties to vibram or any shoe company in any way shape or form. Sure, I have been a customer of vibrams as well as one of ASICS, Nike, new balance, Adidas and under armor. The fact that you have a problem with one of those companies is NOT my problem, it is yours. I have enjoyed the products of all of those companies, have you? There is nothing for me to let go, I'm not the one who has a problem or issue. I have only questioned why you or others have had problems with certain products sold as running shoes. If those products don't work for you that is ok with me. It's not going to change my opinion or buying decision.

    If you and some of your colleagues could let go of your problem, I would have nothing to point out and there wouldn't be a discussion. It is now time for me to put on a pair of your problem product and go for a run.

    Have a good one Simon.
  9. blinda

    blinda MVP

    K, registered my vote on the survey.

    Where`s the gig? I need time to prepare myself.
  10. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    It is true Dana.. you are just a runner.You continue to blindly, and I believe deliberately, miss the point. You must have a lot of time on your hands. Do you have a job? It is not a question of IF the products that were designed as kayaking shoes and sold as running shoes work for ME. That is just you bringing a personal side of things into a discussion which is a very poor way to conduct an academic discussion. That is irrelevant because from day 1 I saw through the outrageous, irresponsible and dangerous claims that were being made, as did many others on this forum.. But there are a lot of gullible, naive and trusting people out there who for whatever reason are not able to process a turd when it is presented to them. We are the ones that have to put those people back together after they, in good faith, have accepted what they are told by companies like vibram, adidas, who are have also been sued for the adipure, sketchers and reebok. We are the one who have to tell them they have 6 -8 weeks off running because the shoe they wore was dangerous and fractured their foot. You just get to sit back and carry on about what a wonderful runner you are, which we are all very tired of, and which brings nothing of any value to this forum.
    You have no responsibility other than to run and comment on this website on issues you are not qualified to comment on at all.. so you have much to let go of and you really should.
    Meantime, we will continue to follow the evidence and do our best to make sure that wherever possible runners can enjoy their sport safely, and if they do get injured, use best practices, many of which are discussed on this arena, to get them back on the track.
  11. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, peace.
  12. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    Are you asking if others consider that the particular barefoot/minimalist 'experiment', of the last few years, has failed or that the whole barefoot/minimalist idea has failed, ie can the barefoot/minimalist experiment be modified to make it a success or is the barefoot/minimalist idea fundamentally flawed?

  13. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    Bill.. the question is: "has the barefoot and minimalist movement delivered what it promised"?? That being less injuries and better running form for anyone who adheres to the theory?"
  14. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    Thanks for clarifying things a bit.

    I tried to get to your survey online but had no success. But no matter, given the way the question is framed I couldn't give a 'yes' 'no' answer.

    If the question was: 'Has the commercial arm of the of minimalist (not barefoot as there is no direct profit in that) movement delivered what it advertised' the answer is a clear 'NO and I think one hundred percent of respondants would agree?

    But is it any suprise that it failed? No absolutely not. The whole 'experiment' was not designed to test an hypothesis, eg does minimalist/barefoot running reduce injuries and or improve running form, but was a business venture based on creating and exploiting a market, knowing that the product shelf life was likely to be short.

    If the question was: Can the concept of barefoot/minimalism be manipulated to produce splendid financial returns over a relatively short period? The answer is undoubtedly, YES.

    As far as the value of barefoot/minimalist running is concerned. If the question was: Does minimalist/barefoot running produce any added health benefit, my answer would be, I don't know but I would imagine that for some people some of the time it might do, if they took long enough over the transition to minimalism/barefoot and selected their running surfaces carefully and listend to their bodies? Unfortunately it's hard to make profit out of that type of response or turn it into a 'yes' or 'no'.


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